gribble: They really are Buttcoins nao on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: <http://trilema.com/they-really-are-buttcoins-nao>; February 2013 on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: <http://trilema.com/2013/02>; Bitcoin on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: <http://trilema.com/category/bitcoin/>
_FeltPen: where the sword wont?
mircea_popescu: (rub miner's nose in their doo-doo)
mircea_popescu: it's certainly a step in the right direction
asciilifeform: it is gathering dust sadly
mod6: ah cool - yeah maybe post in here at some point. builders may fnd it helpful if they haven't made their own already.
punkman: mircea_popescu: were the disappeared transactions low-s btw?
asciilifeform: the latter.
mod6: or the rotor script?
mod6: the 99997 one were were talkin about yesterday asciilifeform ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you have two uls in there in succession, wipe one
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It's how the html you submitted parses. Looks legible even if some line spacing is weird. I just assumed you did that for emphasis.
mod6: Again, this is for -recompile- only. Not for initial build. Not for newbs either.
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 08:54:01; ben_vulpes: i am also curious to hear about how long the bitcoind recompile is in your various workflows, asciilifeform, phf, mod6, punkman, jurov
mod6: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-03-2016#1418803 << i usually just modify the rotor script so that it just builds bitcoind with all of the necessary environment vars set, but comment out the building of BDB/SSL/Boost. The re-compile usually takes a few minutes. Not more than say 15.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: the days-old high-S tx was mined ~immediately~ after i broadcast the doublespend low-S.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i had this exact same experience when making the alphago bet. only difference is that malleation was involved.
asciilifeform: whereas when i was doing it as a boy it worked on one 486 box but not another, mostly-identical one.
asciilifeform: i.e. particular length of the bus, and clock.
asciilifeform: mats: the crapple aspect is interesting though. the laptop monoculture means that folks can finally be relied upon to have the 'standard' antenna.
asciilifeform: 'a good part of GNOME can now be considered part of the system set. You have to understand that even if it might not be in your system set, or in the default system set for what matters, the packages have to be carefully considered to not break if they are part of the possible system set...'
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Of course the solution in the long run is to stop trying to do the kind of deals which make this wankery a possibility
BingoBoingo: The scammed dude asked me how to present his dilemma in a way that makes sense that this was the distillation I found most obvious
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Apparently the dude sold the site to another dude and retroactively converted the sale into a lease by claiming US copyright law.
gribble: Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Pretty much the definition of pet is gets to do what it wants, but many pets take suggestions.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo im writing a qntra piece re the thing, gimme an hour.
asciilifeform: pet does other things.
BingoBoingo: Of course not, but mebbe keccak miner can be pet project for pet to play with? Every cat needs string, or in their absence lasers.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> wake me up when it's time for the keccak knife. << Is there a possibru lAb project here?
asciilifeform: this appears to cure all poetteringism in one stroke of the knife.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 4.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - http://bitbet.us/bet/1250/donald-trump-will-win-the-2016-united-states/#b13
asciilifeform bbl, is actually in one of the very few restaurants run by actual chinese here, and dinner is served
mircea_popescu: why what ? why b) ? because it's way the fuck safer for them if any would-be competing cartel starts with a half hour disadvantage.
asciilifeform: i mean, if declaring war of the worlds, would be good to know why.
mircea_popescu: i suppose we're at the chinese phase of exchanging insults.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what do the miners win from this behaviour ?
mircea_popescu: anyway. at present the best short-term course is, of course, publicizing the matter.
asciilifeform: wake me up when it's time for the keccak knife.
mircea_popescu: whatever mining may be, it's not jsut the codebase that's broken. bitcoin, per se, is not currently functional.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im still thinking what the best solution to this would be, but as far as bitbet is concerned quite likely something like that.
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 23:27:41; mircea_popescu: anyway. miners must be broken, burned and the land fucking salted.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-03-2016#1419616 << i have hated them since t=0
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty much. i don't see what else is there. this is the fabled hour of reckoning, best i can tell
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 23:16:38; mircea_popescu: the problem is broadly speaking that bitcoin is not actually fit for commerce, and that fixing it necessarily requires changing the pow to exclude f2pool/antpool/etc.
mircea_popescu: look, i know oodles of people have observed what to them seems "just normal wierdness"
kakobrekla: anyway, for as long as the original tx is not included you must be careful not to spend those inputs in another tx. even if that means forever.
mircea_popescu: both of these are serious concerns, and both of these are, strictu sensu, sufficient to prove, not to propose, that bitcoin is not actually functional.
mircea_popescu: b) the same majority of miners is running a withdheld block scheme, where they keep about a half hour time differential between the ACTUAL head of the bitcoin chain and what they published.
mircea_popescu: a) a majority of miners (ie, pool operators) on the bitcoin network conspire together to selectively deny valid transactions
mircea_popescu: about three hours ago, tx B, with the same outputs as An, but with different inputs was broadcast. this tx was visible in the mempool throujghout the network as normal, and was included in a block in half an hour.
kakobrekla: you pay out bet A with inputs Ia and sufficient fee. tx gets 'lost', not confirmed. people bitch. you post the tx hex so people them selfs can re-broadcast it. however for as long as that tx is not included in the block you can not spend those same Ia inputs.
mircea_popescu: a flurry of other txn, all spending the same inputs and paying ever more in fee were broadcast up until, most recently, march 1st (~16 hours ago).
mircea_popescu: as a result, tx A2 was created, monday, spending the same inputs, paying a fee, and was broadcast.
mircea_popescu: later throughout the weekend, tx A1 was not visible in the bitcoin network, in spite of being broadcast to 100s of peers.
mircea_popescu: look, let's try and get on the same page here. so saturday (sunday by bitbet time) the 20th (21st) this bet https://bitbet.us/bet/1209/jeb-bush-will-be-republicans-2016-presidential-nominee/ was resolved and paid out. the transaction doing this used some inputs to pay out the winners. let's call it tx A1.
kakobrekla: its not impossible you will make a tx from some inputs, which will be 'forgotten' and say fuck you [i only a slight problem so far as long as the tx hex is published and can be rebroadcast] and then later on use those same inputs for another tx [i have a larger problem with that]
mircea_popescu: yeah, i'm sure they can.
mircea_popescu: i can't comprehend what you're trying to argue here. you're roughly in the position of a prison warden facing an empty cell and a hole in the wall going "hey, water infiltration can sometimes make holes in walls"
mircea_popescu: why do you expect you see block data ? chinese miners have their own pre-time network.
mircea_popescu: that was at the time withheld.
mircea_popescu: understand : at the time you saw it as "broadcast" it was ALREADY included in a block
mircea_popescu: they're witholding blocks (what, you think the blocks you see are the blocks at they're mined ?!), they're withholding txn now, etc.
mircea_popescu: it was a 20 minute old txn at the time it was included in a block.
mircea_popescu: this is the smoking gun re miner collusion to scam bitbet. the loing and the short of it.
mircea_popescu: then it just so happens that tuesday night it's good enough ?
mircea_popescu: for the record, there are about 50k txn with a higher per-byte offering, and all of those have been in the mempool for ehhh i dunno, a week more than half hour ?
kakobrekla: is not bad no, i guess the size and age did it just.
kakobrekla: can you share the tx hex of b28245044ac784766b58dcef00750608400c43bd63dce0f8c41491bd9405ad3a ?
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - http://bitbet.us/bet/1250/donald-trump-will-win-the-2016-united-states/#b11
kakobrekla: anyway, 'some party' cant order ALL the miners 'not to include' your tx really.
mircea_popescu: doesn't need to be in the next one. understand how miner collusion works.
mircea_popescu: i personally think the only reason it's not mined yet is that there hasn't been a block.
kakobrekla: gotta move the coins.
kakobrekla: anyway, given the current state of txes there is a good chance that evil 0 fee tx will get forgotten again
kakobrekla: its possible you are connected to a node pocket - trb do not like non-trb nodeas (ban hammer) so they are only left connected (mostly) to trb, not prb which you need if you want the world to see your txes
mircea_popescu: worst enemy of the coin.
mircea_popescu: anyway. miners must be broken, burned and the land fucking salted.
mircea_popescu: well, i'm going to make more, and try to mine them and etc, but yes.
kakobrekla: that is the doublespend of de9bc173174f5ae97e7fe0d2e171647cade189c76f9cbe48f37494c973aca2e4 ?
mircea_popescu: and the one doublespending it with a fee is... not visible. right ?
kakobrekla: anyway, tx is unconfirmed at this time with 0 fee, it will take a while to get included in a block if it even will be. you can try to doublespend those inputs to a different address and save the btc.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla understand : just because they picked one particular txn out of a set of txn they withheld should NOT be an argument they may bring.
kakobrekla: the problem isnt bitbet being targeted. the problem is 0 fee and the fact you can know if uncofirmed tx is out of EVERYONES mempool.
mircea_popescu: punkman except spending goes through the same process generally.
punkman: gotta try to spend/move the old inputs to be sure old transaction doesn't suddenly reappear
mircea_popescu: the one you see now was broadcast originally saturday.
kakobrekla: and the 29 blocks confirmed one has 0.00022
kakobrekla: the currently unconfirmed tx has 0 fee ?
mircea_popescu: however - since bitbet publishes the payout addresses, it's trivial for them to know what to sit on.
kakobrekla: afaik would not happen if you would select same inputs to be used for second tx or alternatively rebroadcast the first one
mircea_popescu: the problem is broadly speaking that bitcoin is not actually fit for commerce, and that fixing it necessarily requires changing the pow to exclude f2pool/antpool/etc.
mircea_popescu: this means that if you are waiting on a payment - you got to talk to a miner. bitbet will not further consider any complaints of this nature.
mircea_popescu: the damage in this case is ~17 BTC, which whatever - cdb.
mircea_popescu: because they can sit on a transaction more or less forever.
mircea_popescu: this adds an entire layer of breakage to the already broken bitcoin infrastructure. specifically - due to chinese miner collusion (and yes they do control over 50% of the network) it is impossible to guarantee payment at ANY point in the future.
mircea_popescu: once a transaction that DIDN'T spend the same inputs was announced and confirmed, the OLD transactions were somehow found, and are now broadcast.
mircea_popescu: specifically : a set of a dozen or so txn that were trying to pay out winners of a bet went out, only to be "ignored" by the network. they all spent the same inputs. this went on for about a week.
mircea_popescu: sooo... it pains me to say that bitbet was just on the receiving end of a concerted miner withholding attack.
mircea_popescu: well... the deed seals keep getting spent, so someone must be
trinque: it would be good for me to post an example verifier on the site
trinque: yeah, just a matter of taking the deed bundle txt, performing sha256 and using that as the privkey, generating a pubkey and address from that
mircea_popescu: does it contain enough info to verify the deeds ?
jurov: http://therealbitcoin.org/deedbot.org/index.html soo, the mirror is here. of course nothing is so simple, i ran into wget trying to follow urls in .txt (!) files and even trying to fix them(!!!)
mircea_popescu: not really, she's rather lizard faced, neh ?
mircea_popescu: and in other usda news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/d66ceb781a14c8f70b3183b999b9ba4a/tumblr_mmput3xwme1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: in unrelated-to-anything nyooz, if anyone wants a patched (removed idiot pci whitelist) heathen bios for x60, email me.
kakobrekla: eth goes up another 20 purrcent
assbot: Microsoft Certifies Ethereum Offering in Blockchain Service First - CoinDesk ... ( http://bit.ly/1TPqCzW )
kakobrekla: http://www.coindesk.com/microsoft-ethereum-startup-blockchain/ << "The simple, rapid and flexible one-click deploy of Ethereum blockchain architecture launched on the Microsoft Azure Marketplace enables enterprises and developers to quickly deploy a certified blockchain environment on Azure."
asciilifeform: not related to dulap except in the fact that both are trb nodes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: dulap is not only platform for phuctor, but will host 'g', gossip, etc., and is presently the largest and most reliable trb battleship. and i will pay for it personally, because wtf.
asciilifeform: there we go.
mircea_popescu: seriously, guy's a retard, that's all there is to it.
Anduck: fwiw, i tried to pm with trinque but he kept ignoring me from the beginning. my script accidentally used his site too frequently and now he's doing this, annoying me occasionally with sudden "fuck you anduck" hilights etc
asciilifeform: but i say that until the engine is ready, i will pull sled with own back.
mircea_popescu: but then got bogged down.
asciilifeform: initially, mircea_popescu propelled the sled
mircea_popescu: and apologies to all the people waiting on https://bitbet.us/bet/1209/jeb-bush-will-be-republicans-2016-presidential-nominee/ payouts. they're out now, 3confirms.
mircea_popescu: i think i'm done raging for the day.
mircea_popescu: there is also that, yeah. anyway!
mircea_popescu: they may well cut it off this week.
mircea_popescu: anyway. bill's up, i guess im closing down this phuctor server and eating the 2 month bill as cdb ?
mircea_popescu: lol. well, the plan is working splendidly. who'd bother shooting you, you're rather easy to mothball anyway.
asciilifeform: but the down side is that, it being rare, there is ~0 demand, most places, most of the time.
asciilifeform: it is done, elementarily, by removing the weevils.
trinque: jurov: gotta go do an errand, but when I'm seated at desk again I'll put some more thought into the section of my nginx config labeled "Fuck you, Anduck"
mircea_popescu: "oh, but does it help ?" "i guess..." "WELL THEN!111"
mircea_popescu: whereas what a doctor, or a lawyer do, independent professions and in no sense either labour or skilled, is to give you THEIR OPINIONS
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not in the slightest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the situation you described is called 'skilled labour' and it is how i eat.
mircea_popescu: i happen to know what that is. ircd will just dump the highest latency users if it gets full.
trinque: jurov: you asked if there were limits !!!111!!
asciilifeform: trinque: the fella on the left hand side is you, i recall. right hand - i think might be mircea_popescu ?
mircea_popescu: but no, in bitcoin it's "and if the clown car on the left comes unglued call this number and if the bla bla 5000 entries long"
mircea_popescu: do you understand how normal work works among humans ? bob has a widget factory, which needs a widgeteer, which is a job composed of 5 movements and 3 reaches, so he goes to the corner where kids loiter and goes "you there! do like this with your elbow! good. now read this list and apply it. every day."
mircea_popescu: a nothing! i can't as much as have someone to clean the fucking floors.
mircea_popescu: except for the steel breastplate and geiger counter.
mircea_popescu: if banks ran like this the average teller would look like a fucking safari hunter,
mircea_popescu: and EVEN THEN everyone must have access to the fucking top of the hierarchy because it is a GIVEN that everyone will encounter fundamental problems on a monthly basis.
mircea_popescu: but on the other hand - i can't fucking hire people for the love of everfuck. there is no such thing as a lowly bank clerk in bitcoin. everyone must be at above-phd level of tech awareness - yea, i know that doesn't cut it to be in b-a, fine, fuck you all, there are STILL 100k phds spewed out the world over who think themselves as they add to the pool of millions floating around that they are pdh-level! -
mircea_popescu: part of the fucking problem, this
mircea_popescu: bitcoin, the tower of shit.
asciilifeform: the failure rate is, elementarily, a queue thing
mircea_popescu: i know it sounds ridiculous, but however it may sound, it is the fucking truth.
mircea_popescu: my list is in the thousands and i am still regularly blindsided.
mircea_popescu: in truth the failure modes for discrete production processes on the bitcoin network are currently still innumerable.
ben_vulpes: the hundred dollar store is pretty funny
mircea_popescu: lol what's with this trend of rewriting trilema poorly among the yuppy class ?
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.95000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump will win the 2016 United States Presidential Election - http://bitbet.us/bet/1250/donald-trump-will-win-the-2016-united-states/#b9
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/2101614620ddddd2978e7e6ce64dc1d4/tumblr_mmuc4eEsgJ1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: which is about as nice as all the derpage post-snowden.
mircea_popescu: but what i personally take home from the whole "o noes, branded bugs nao" thing is that hearbleed REALLY hurt.
punkman: it's all rather organized
asciilifeform: notice how every time the 'branded' bug burn ends with 'and now you must install openssl x.y.n+1 ' ???
trinque: heh someday it is then
jurov: and maybe some other stuff you forgot :_
trinque: jurov: only html is the index
jurov: trinque actually, upon reading wget man, it will clobber html files because it always reads only the added range regardless of date headers :(
mircea_popescu: because yes, socialist notion of belonging is always built on some version of "plox to believe there is technology of prayer"
asciilifeform: (do they have modern turbine yet in tibet, to turn prayer mill?)
mircea_popescu: there is no technology of prayer!
asciilifeform: possibly she sucked the right pud ?
mircea_popescu: whether you are or aren't : the notion that what nadia heninger did is in any way related to what nadia heninger "got" is the core and the root of cargo cultism.
asciilifeform: and in fact i'm in a fish store, in the bait tank.
mircea_popescu: obvious is what stuff is that sits at the root of the tree of things and denies certain branches of thought
mircea_popescu: and once i fucking croak, they'll get a cat's paw magazine.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the notion that nadia heninger "got" a phd and "got" a cushy sinecure, in the sense of got that you employ when you say b-a got x done is ludicrous!
mircea_popescu: punkman> motherfucking branded vulns << srsly.
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 19:48:18; ascii_field: 'It doesn't work when Nadia Heninger goes to sell Phuctor before Stanford - Nadia Heninger doesn't own Phuctor, and the actual owners are very much present and very much capable to bitchslap her into oblivion.' << actually, 'crime pays.' chick gets a phd and cushy sinecure, etc.
punkman: motherfucking branded vulns
asciilifeform: '...a new form of cross-protocol Bleichenbacher padding oracle attack. It allows an attacker to decrypt intercepted TLS connections by making specially crafted connections to an SSLv2 server that uses the same private key.' << l0l
asciilifeform: there are also lesser blackholes, from the tx-ddos-crapola itself being received and verified
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 08:52:51; ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-02-2016#1395250 << asciilifeform what was the actual trigger for the blackhole? requesting a specific transaction?
trinque: kurrency kontrolz for the 21st century!
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 14:04:10; assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 09:02:12; ben_vulpes: there's only so much damage the little fuckling can do in 485 ft2
trinque: Anduck: learn from the above !!!1111!! ^
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 14:18:16; mircea_popescu: then i went into them financially and they actually burned a few millions propping it up, and that pretty much brings us to the present day.
jurov: trinque , yes "HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 416 Requested Range Not Satisfiable The file is already fully retrieved; nothing to do."
trinque: yeah, they're pretty big
jurov: huh but these are logs indeed
jurov: omg there are 110M deeds?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, joined #freenode typed out the above turns out i had no voice. shrugged an' left.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah it was the whole thing.
jurov: also, are you ok with me mirroring them often?
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 13:54:05; mircea_popescu: o brother. i've been trying to give servers and stuff to the freenode shitheads for YEARS
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-03-2016#1418972 << isn't there a 'don't feed the animals' sign hanging somewhere above them ?
asciilifeform: either that or mircea_popescu is using a 486...
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-03-2016#1418940 << this must include buildroot/gcc, the deps, etc.
jurov: deedbot-: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20160301/attachment.txt?sha1=675d9675e9151a4adf860e168aada54d33925369
mircea_popescu: an' how's the morn find you asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: the systemd of emacs.
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 13:42:04; assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 06:02:07; ben_vulpes: flycheck just deleted the contents of an entire buffer
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller lemme guess, "consensus" ?
mircea_popescu: the difference between "S&P 500" and "here's a retrospective list of 500 companies I picked" is moreover slim.
mircea_popescu: the thing anon establishment ho fails to mention, however, is that S&P 500 is not in any sense a thing.
mircea_popescu: trump didn't actually beat inflation, let alone the s&p.
thestringpuller: so classic got 33 blocks out of last 1000. it's interesting seeing the derps derpin'
mircea_popescu: but then again, i am youthful and inexperienced. also was not in bed with woman and her infant child.
jurov: SuchWow: what about the code your ass runs on? no trust system needed?
SuchWow: the world needs it
SuchWow: yet i do once in awhile read the chat here just for fun
mircea_popescu: haha then a lot you gotta do. later!
SuchWow: anyhow, all i wanted to say was: [09:22:08] <SuchWow> anyhow i'm gonna drift off for now [09:22:23] <SuchWow> thanks for the good convo, be well sir (and all)
mircea_popescu: omg get in the wot already.
SuchWow: it's all a sham, but it's amazing how long they've been able to prop it up and convince the vast majority of everyone to believe in it
SuchWow: except that it seems to be maintaining the illusion longer
mircea_popescu: which is fine and good - by now it's obvious it's cheaper to kill it on technical grounds rather than financial seeing how nsa can print money but can't really hire anyone but indians and idiots for the life of it.
SuchWow: and then suddenly it's a currency and it starts acting like dogecoin, value/price-wise
SuchWow: i remember them fundraising etc
mircea_popescu: then i went into them financially and they actually burned a few millions propping it up, and that pretty much brings us to the present day.