asciilifeform: who ever heard of a slow nuke. dontcha want the panic stampede?
mircea_popescu: oh herp derp we are miners and making conferences ? fucking death warrant you've signed there boys.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin as it currently stands is a very iffy proposition. it ~absolutely~ requires the bricking of current miners to have a chance, and major protocol rewrites.
mircea_popescu: ^ for the record, i've been divesting, if slowly.
mircea_popescu: totally ready for "running in production" by other idea guys.
mircea_popescu: eh they have nfi what they're doing. classic is essentially a social media campaign.
mircea_popescu: rather low hanging fruit, that sort of inept claim. classic is about as production ready as windows 7.
jurov: https://medium.com/@barmstrong/what-happened-at-the-satoshi-roundtable-6c11a10d8cdf#.bgn65l10p
asciilifeform: but are there such things as heroic mice.
mircea_popescu: just like should we look for places to poison mice, we'll go by the holes ; but should we look for a hero mice to reward with a wheel of cheese - we won't notice the holes.
asciilifeform: and washington doesn't pgpsign, but somehow it is always very easy to distinguish its spew from all other.
mircea_popescu: fuck them, fiat states, who cares. "legal process" or w/e.
mircea_popescu: what the everloving fuck.
mircea_popescu: i'm offering 14 btc for the arrest and conviction of this particular redditard by isis
punkman: if anyone's selling 100eur notes for 50eur, I'll buy all of them
mircea_popescu: then the same fucking idiots come by to "comment" on shit i do. as if we're all people now or something, in the same sense.
mircea_popescu: "I am offering a 14 Bitcoin Bounty leading to the arrest, conviction, AND return of my 28 Bitcoins that were stolen from me." << fancy that idiocy.
mircea_popescu: shinohai plox to offer short intro for redditard/other tard links. i ended up looking at that only to see that, typical for the mob, it's not any sort of bounty, but a conditional offer predicated on the impossible.
shinohai: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/492b8r/bitcoin_bounty_offered_of_14_bitcoins/ " I sent them a text calling them a Pig Fucker"
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: the rumour goes countess diana_coman bathory bathes in virgins' blood to maintain her youth etc.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-03-05.log.html#t05:02:16 << in other news, eulora has progressed to feudalism, has actual redditor serfs and everything.
jurov: asciilifeform: nice. maybe put the gpg horrors on qntra or loperos?
asciilifeform: where, precisely, are the non-junk comments to come from ?
mircea_popescu: dude the junk on your blog's unreadable. /me made the mistake to try to wade through comments.
mircea_popescu: did he say, on tv, "bitch you either eat out marylin or ima flay you alive and hang your disgusting carcass by the south gate" ?
mircea_popescu: it is when a man ridicules the nuttery of singles marriage, openly, and doesn't entertain it, openly. it's some luxuries no us president ever had.
asciilifeform: then sure.
asciilifeform: but for all i know, this norvig is a joker and the real norvig is with his harem.
mircea_popescu: norvig can, on the basis of his achievements such as they are, live a life his father would have thought good enough for a blue colar laborer.
mircea_popescu: this is why they gotta fucking come up with a "cultural war" about sitting in the fucking bus.
mircea_popescu: and then chair seats will be replaced with dildoes.
mircea_popescu: which is why they'll get moved to dormitories in due time.
asciilifeform: they also get used to 'comcast.'
mircea_popescu: why ~the fuck~ do you suppose the koreans gotta do ever more inane absurd shit ? isn't being a korean bad enough ?
mircea_popescu: by NOT getting t3, norvig thinks EVEN MORE of the imbecile system he's plugged into.
mircea_popescu: this is important. not for the "good of the people", as it is broadly misdirected - but for the continued delusion of the imbeciles in question.
mircea_popescu: i don't think you understand how the world works.
mircea_popescu: and who the fuck is peter norvig anyway ?
mircea_popescu: there's plenty of women using pgp.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: supposing that it was him (the man doesn't pgp.)
asciilifeform: visits my obscure corner of the world.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
adlai: danielpbarron: congratulations on getting the round tuit!
adlai: the "double spend" is quite a oui-event, even if it was caused by pessimal interaction with eg sturles's node
shinohai: Yeah upon further investigation I decided it was a non-event.
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-03-2016#1422228 << they were using incompatible versions on the same network... what can be expected
gribble: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: I was at the liquor store and was like "Hey danielpbarron made a blog post about some drink today, lemme try that!"
mircea_popescu: then one day you eat the wrong end of a lovage leaf and holy shit you're covered in hives.
asciilifeform: ( he took it out in http://git.gnupg.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=gnupg.git;a=commit;h=927f34603d942868af6a7bd0f347681bbad76a94 --- and then put back !! )
trinque: mircea_popescu: I see the malice in the act, but am commenting on the pervasiveness of propaganda such that malicious acts can be projected through many obedient, subservient nodes
mircea_popescu: feel free to qntra, all the lulz.
mircea_popescu: trinque no, this is certainly malicious to the hilt.
assbot: Logged on 10-02-2015 03:25:08; mircea_popescu: this is like asking wyatt earp "how do you distinguish between the f brothers and stray dog"
asciilifeform: trinque: what is the point of attempting this distinction?
mircea_popescu: may the historians long name you for it.
asciilifeform: but imho i found the '2nd law of thermo' in re bitcoin- the nothing-for-showing-up principle.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> ~nobody wants to admit << nobody wants to admit except for the guy that's been saying it for years. yeh!
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> perhaps i had everything backwards << which is exactly my metapoint here. for as long as such can occur, it is CLEAR we don't have the perimeter of this thing yet.
asciilifeform: ~nobody wants to admit, but ~the~ mega-problem of bitcoin is... that it is FAR too accessible.
asciilifeform: perhaps i had everything backwards.. possibly, being able to transact ~without~ mining, is the bug. not mining...
BingoBoingo: Ah, but that would be the lesser Bingo review of Robocop. What do you think authors are, fungible?
BingoBoingo: Shame, the #b-a canon it poorer for it.
BingoBoingo still awaits mp's Trilema review of the Verhoeven masterpiece Robocop
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Mebbe bring an actual pathogen into the discussion so as to contrast this herpajerk
mircea_popescu: yeah yeah, wanna-be the superimaginarium/illusionist except with very bad historic research.
mircea_popescu: oh the one with blondy whats her face ?
hanbot: you know, where they got david bowie to play tesla.
asciilifeform: you can sorta guess the rest.
mircea_popescu: if shit just falls on the ground and you try to pretend it's art, on the other hand...
mircea_popescu: so that someone asking for a payment to address x already has skin in the game - whatever it cost him to make the address.
mircea_popescu: not "why is it chained liek so ?" "uhhhh... [spittle dribbling]" as is currently the case.
mircea_popescu: at least on this design the problem is sanely approacheable - make address creation REASONABLY expensive, for SANE, DEFINED, PROTOCOL reasons.
asciilifeform: but verily, s put the turingcompleteness in the ONE place it least belonged, the tx processor.
assbot: Logged on 04-03-2016 21:19:30; mircea_popescu: for instance (and plox, before we run off with it - example only!) : if every tx was defined as "only 1 input - only 1 output" and if you wanted to make a larger payment youy'd have to make MULTIPLE txn, then a) the protocol would actually make a lot more sense, atomicity-wise and b) you wouldn't have the problems jurov describes. because pay x to y with fee z would exist EXACTLY one way.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Then just resubmit, haven't opened it yet.
mircea_popescu: if you're not picky about tall, you can prolly have brides for the feeding.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i dun think they even ~make~ non-hot gurlz in ar
mircea_popescu: im not even sure I know which! there's too many. and the bitch with things like these is you always forget one.
mircea_popescu: and derpy arguments "won" with me over the particular brokedness of the prototype implementation are roughly the same value and consistency as used toiletpaper.
mircea_popescu: i just put that there to generally and pars pro toto show that when i say bitcoin is a steaming pile of shit, and broadly an undesigned kludge i mean very specific things.
mircea_popescu: because unlike shitforbrainsatosi stuff, they make sense.
mircea_popescu: (yes i'm aware that the above example allows no payments other than in multiples of 50 btc for a while, then multiples of 25, and EVENTUALLY in sasothis. MIND YOU that this is a feature and what you are using now a bug - da fuck do you do when the coinbase is split up in all the satoshis it could be ? ha ? oh, "works for you as it is" ? ty.)
mircea_popescu: they don't have to be.
asciilifeform: bitstrings are 'dupable' by nature, bitcoin's whole purpose is to hack around this, to the extent physically possible, like a ship is a hack around the sea
mircea_popescu: for instance (and plox, before we run off with it - example only!) : if every tx was defined as "only 1 input - only 1 output" and if you wanted to make a larger payment youy'd have to make MULTIPLE txn, then a) the protocol would actually make a lot more sense, atomicity-wise and b) you wouldn't have the problems jurov describes. because pay x to y with fee z would exist EXACTLY one way.
assbot: Logged on 04-03-2016 21:16:20; mircea_popescu: the problem ~MAY~ be that bitcoin transactions are dupe-able in the first place, for instance.\
asciilifeform: (and the protocol actually selects for idiots, smart folks don't mine)
mircea_popescu: which is why bitcoin protocol discussions are so complex, and the whole thing so hard : because omfg, the complexity. you don't even rightly know where the problem comes from really, in the rat's nest.
mircea_popescu: the problem ~MAY~ be that bitcoin transactions are dupe-able in the first place, for instance.\
asciilifeform: my point was, minertards won't go willingly into the good night.
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the issue. having nodes discard dupes is in principle stupid ; having nodes discard dupes on a first-seen basis is entirely warantless ; trying to run an implementation of this design will run into problems.
asciilifeform: the ancient and inevitable pill for such situations is called:
mircea_popescu: fix the protocol.
mircea_popescu: the expectation you'll fix broken protocol sociall is inept.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> the net-as-publictoilet era will e << and this is exactly the situation we have now, except we don't like the miners.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there's no such actual thing as flatgraph - only star topology with thinly disguised star.
asciilifeform: the net-as-publictoilet era will end.
asciilifeform: and it comes back to the tx thing like this: eventually we learn who shat out the million crud tx.
mircea_popescu: the current abomination was never intended re : internet.
assbot: Please stop using DNS already, and other considerations on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1XPA1bf )
mircea_popescu: see also first paragraph of http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/#comment-116653
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-03-2016#1422061 << i betcha that mircea_popescu could make an argument for nat! perhaps involving greek slavegurlz who can only speak outside the households through master's lips, or the like.
mircea_popescu: plox to change ref then
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo what's the cannonical article re pres. bahamas, witgh the pic ? the asean one ? << yes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suppose his idea is, in plainer english, that in principle fee is no deterrent, because if he makes 1mn txn that are all valid but spend the same inputs, only one can be eventgually mined and so he can create as many txn as he wants for you to relay and only pay the fee once, eventually. whereas only keeping the first seen one protects from this.
mircea_popescu: in the interim, http://36.media.tumblr.com/da92abb4cb83ac6ed09106da2fd1421e/tumblr_mlfknbycbE1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: but the important part there is making the complete list, like with any other scientific approach.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo what's the cannonical article re pres. bahamas, witgh the pic ? the asean one ?
mircea_popescu: but this aside. so you said nat routers are stupid and i said i'm happy with them and this evnetually means i came to terms to what, using the jurov two way router ? or what ?
mircea_popescu: i think i had moneys-something in there for a while also, or whatever.
jurov: then we had dicsussion where I was unable to explain why addresses aren't spent, but outputs are, same reult
jurov: i explained why NAT is stupid, like one way telephone that only accepts calls, you laughed at me and told you wouldn't want any other
jurov: eh why do i strive here, like with NAT, inputs vs. addresses and maybe several other things, you will eventually come to terms with what i meant
mircea_popescu: EVEN if you build a tree - which you do not, chiefly because don't know how - you STILL lose out on the rebalancings
jurov: oh and actually, how do you check if enemy sends the same tx many times?
jurov: and also loses txfee when one of these tx is mined
mircea_popescu: producing the equivalent of penises with a clitoral hood and cunts with a bit of penile foreskin and on and on.
mircea_popescu: dumbass doing the original ~prototype~ had nfi of design, ended up shoehorning everything in everything else
jurov: either there's a state machine that considers other txen in mempool, or no conflict resolution, there's no third way
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> but 'seen first is The One' is asinine. << srsly.
asciilifeform: you check ~when expelling~ from the pool
jurov: but then you have to check for conflicts!
asciilifeform: and yes, you sum over the non-conflicting tx.
asciilifeform: what's the problem with that ?
asciilifeform: the original thread was re: how the current protocol, which allows a tx to refer to unconfirmed inputs, is retarded.
jurov: but ALL the conflicts have same $maxint fee
asciilifeform: but 'seen first is The One' is asinine.
asciilifeform: the only logical thing.
asciilifeform: jurov: the logical thing to do would be to resolve all conflicts by maximizing fee.
jurov: your memory together for all the conficted txs falls below the specified fee/byte mark, you can admit at least this is true
asciilifeform: (well, it can be, if it falls below the specified fee/byte mark)
mircea_popescu: and the idiots that made a state machine out of the fucking relays are so stupid it's basically inhuman.
asciilifeform: as in, the actual blocks.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we have a permitted state - it is called the blockchain.
mircea_popescu: the overarching design principle being that ALL the information deciding the treatment of a txn MUST BE ~COMPLETELY~ in the txn in question.
mircea_popescu: the job of relaying is - to relay.
mircea_popescu: certainly ANY relay that currently drops on the floor a VALIDLY SIGNED txn is broken. no possible argument here.
asciilifeform: jurov: beyond 'throw out the cheapo crapola', it is not relay's place to resolve the conflict.
mircea_popescu: there is absolutely nothing wrong relaying multiple txn that spend the same inputs ; there is EVERYTHING wrong with the notion you shouldn't do this.
jurov: the realy that allows to fillt is mempool by conflicting transactions is indeed defective
mircea_popescu: you mean to guess what the protocol should have been
asciilifeform: it is really not so fucking hard to grasp the protocol
mircea_popescu: "is it signed validly ? are the inputs in blocks ?" and that is IT.
mircea_popescu: but it is absolutely not the relay's fucking job to attempt to otherwise "check" txns
jurov: if there same and lower, jsut drop it
mircea_popescu: jurov that's the end result, once proper ring buffer sorts by fee yes.
mircea_popescu: jesus the shit people will act in.
mircea_popescu: "close and wipe this. how the fuck did it end up in ?" x6.
mircea_popescu: i "saw" 6 films ion the space of an hour last night
asciilifeform: and which - the 'legit'.
mircea_popescu: the notion that it works any other way is so fucktarfded i couldn't begin to explain it
jurov: so i can generate N doublespends with high tx fee and you're happily gonna carryy them in mempool and propagate?
asciilifeform: this is the miner's job
asciilifeform: http://maryrosecook.com/blog/post/the-fibonacci-heap-ruins-my-life << lulzy and related.
asciilifeform: and if you allow chained tx, now you have to walk the mempool when checking the validity of ~any~ incoming tx.
thestringpuller: LOL. my coworkers just bailed. it's weird being the responsibile one...
mircea_popescu: jurov> (i actually did the prototype, noone picked it up yet, really gnarly) << yeah i know it's rather miserable.
jurov: this is *the* problem, not chained unconfirmed transactions
jurov: (i actually did the prototype, noone picked it up yet, really gnarly)
mircea_popescu: and in other gross and deeply disturbing news you had no idea you were interested in : the right way to get the butt flavour in girl's mouth is to fuck ass with condom on, then take it off and have her suck you. bacteria - do not cross the silicon barrier. mercaptans and other intoxicating goodies - do.
PeterL: Abstract in English so that people can decide whether or not they need to get the rest of the paper translated
mircea_popescu: or as much as fits in the buffer i'm willing to handle, at any rate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the way my intel works is that i don't give a shit about the source data, i read summaries of summaries. but god fucking help you if i go for a endpoint-to-endpoint spot check and the whole conduit isn't there.
PeterL: "English is the language of science!"
mircea_popescu: was the discussion.
asciilifeform: (though uncle al had a pretty solid suspicion that they built his eotvostron)
asciilifeform: it is in the same nowhere as here, afaik.
asciilifeform: but where is the room-temp supercon.
asciilifeform: it is not a mega-surprise that there are libraries in cn.
mircea_popescu: sure. but the stupid parts are not of particular interest here.
asciilifeform: the ghost cities suggest that cn beats usa at entirely everything, including fraud and bezzle.
mircea_popescu: no, because i don't read chinese, nor actually care punctually. i just get (and care about) synthetic reports.
mircea_popescu: PeterL your definition of works being, of course, that it's never included in any actual measurements of anything. look through the actual research sheets, the euros never bother asking them to replicate jack.
asciilifeform: the one that doesn't publish anything ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seeing how the article is about english articles, exactly not like those.
asciilifeform: l0l real phds? you mean like these - http://retractionwatch.com/2011/02/28/crystal-myth-11-more-retractions-from-crystallography-journal-after-2010-fakery ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform recall the lulz i had in the logs when it was discovered the icbc, an economic institution with a sheet larger than the entire us banking sector, was actually NOT EVEN TRADED in the us ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's all sorts of chinese, and enough of each sort, to feed all bologna factories both with workers and raw material. and still have leftover actual phjds.
mircea_popescu: and all the smoke and mirrors the vc freakshow may aim to deploy with software ain't gonna help lipstick this one pig.
mircea_popescu: this means the good chinese phds do not go there anymore ; and that the americans who aren't fucktarded long left.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only works if you're alone. the us is quite behind in tech fixed goods atm.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, beause the euros and the chinese are building actual working things.
asciilifeform: familiar with the webb space telescope ?
asciilifeform: actually they can.
mircea_popescu: because the cyclotron building either works or does not. and they can't lie about the latter.
asciilifeform: so an engineer is paid 200k-usd. he spends it in same place as the lit major.
asciilifeform: the argument is clear but i don't see how the wunderwaffen payola is necessarily 'turkeydollar'
mircea_popescu: nah, the thing with money flow.
asciilifeform: the sultan thing ?
asciilifeform: PeterL: the usg uni thing was originally a product of the 1950s wunderwaffen obsession, that has been fading since
PeterL: The chemistry building where I went to college sits adjacent to the "National superconducting cyclotron", they were in the process of building the "facility for rare isotope beams" when I graduated
mircea_popescu: ironically, sultans and other practitioners of "man-slavegirls-theirlitter family" did and regularly do hear such, for reasons that should be obvious and for which reason they're never discussed in idiocy-land.
mircea_popescu: i don't think any human being in the history of this "man-woman family" idiocy has EVER heard "sure dad, go ahead, it's your money anyway"
mircea_popescu: it has its own head. and this is a serious problem for the pretense of central planning, because they effectively suck down resources.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it looks like, mit still is the hedge fund it was, whether it spends x on wage and y on fixed/capital goods or just x/2 on wage and epsilon on f/c
assbot: Logged on 04-03-2016 18:20:51; mircea_popescu: specifically : while the universities may well be pushing costs down as you describe, they're sure as fuck noty passing the savings up the chain to comecon.
mircea_popescu: you know what the eu cyclotron cost ? you know, that thing the us could never afford ?
asciilifeform: (i am speaking of cost of his doing business. ~wage~ is paid in the same toilet paper to everybody in usaschwitz)
mircea_popescu: (but now we know what the "protests" were for. softening - in preparation of this.)
mircea_popescu: curious if any of the loser satellites will succeed, or for that matter try, something similar.
mircea_popescu: notably enough : romania told the soviets to shut it, and as a result the policy was updated to allow people (ie, romania) to do w/e it pleases.
mircea_popescu: specifically : while the universities may well be pushing costs down as you describe, they're sure as fuck noty passing the savings up the chain to comecon.
mircea_popescu: that's 100 trn in air bubble to breathe while the dod keeps losing trucks nominally full of trucks that were fully loaded with trucks.
mircea_popescu: you can replace the ~100 trn worth ivy league & friends that do a 10-20 bn spending on actual hardware each year and otherwise shuffle paper on the exchanges with a new-and-improved thing worth ~1-2 bn that spends 50 bucks on mcdonalsa a year.
PeterL: isn't the "m" in "stem" math?
mircea_popescu: the "studies" whores cost paper dollars.
mircea_popescu: why ? currently the harvard/mit/etc hedge funds masquerading as universities are pretty much the largest problem on fed's map.
asciilifeform: well yeah, but the ~order~ of removal is peculiar.
mircea_popescu: cuz yeah, the socialists here more or less ready to firebomb the socialists from there.
mircea_popescu: oh in somewaht lulzy news : obama is going to be in argentina 23-24th. he (and his 850 camp followers) is however not going to stay in buenos aires, but some far flung provincial shithole. either because afraid of running into me on corrientes, or else because petrified of LEFT WING PROTESTS.
asciilifeform: so the reason has to be something else.
mircea_popescu: new party line i guess. proactively closing the uni financing gap and all that.
assbot: I no longer understand my PhD dissertation (and what this means for Mathematics Education) — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/1OViU0P )
asciilifeform: sooo crying over 'math is hard!111' is hip now ? >> https://medium.com/@fjmubeen/ai-no-longer-understand-my-phd-dissertation-and-what-this-means-for-mathematics-education-1d40708f61c#.492j0fjqn