mod6: so if derps wanna use centralized mining shitware, they can continue. but i wont, and you wont.
mircea_popescu: mod6 because more or less then, it'll be a case of "well... what does everyone use ?"
asciilifeform: try to undestand the difference between bug and misdesign.
BingoBoingo: mod6: Well, work on a trb with a new genesis block could be an interesting skeleton for altcoin. It opens the door to flensing far deeper.
mircea_popescu: mod6 your call to make, together with ben_vulpes i guess - the point remains, if no trb offering in july, no trb offering in july.
mod6: if this is all correct, then i agree with alf. there is no reason to continue work on trb - we should suspend, indefinately, all efforts therein. At least until somehow we have a re-write that resolves these issues.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: famine doesn't affect rats and mice. quite the opposite.
mircea_popescu: in fact, the lot of them getting burned off is at least as valuable as bricking the idiot chinese miner rigs.
mircea_popescu: i'd honestly much prefer the situation where "evangelism" never happened.
mircea_popescu: JuliaTourianski_ nobody wants "the cred" of imbecile redditars & all.
BingoBoingo: And there's no well designed alts
JuliaTourianski_: the thing alt coiners don't get is...if btc "fails" alt coins lose all cred. wont get any traction EVEN if perfect
mircea_popescu: now imagine what other incredibly dumb shit they imagine is a good idea for crying out loud.
BingoBoingo: But the same problem
JuliaTourianski_: they went against core?
mircea_popescu: pity they already did.
JuliaTourianski_: they will never go against perceived consensus
JuliaTourianski_: the Chinese miners want and like single leadership because chinese.
mircea_popescu: hopefully some hicks from missouri capture you and i can hear all about the ozarks supremacy for a while.
asciilifeform: of them.
mircea_popescu: after the unintentional hardfork over the imbecillic high-s thing, this was perhaps inevitable. what are they do to ?
mircea_popescu: and sure, you can blame the miners. the problem is - the design sort-of forced this endgame upon them. i doubt most of the chinese even understand ~what went wrong~, in the very faint general, letalone in this specific ~what we did wrong~. by the chinese bible they were being very reasonable and i just don't understand how the world works. ach ach my dear fellow mp.
mircea_popescu: if whatever you're doing is threatened by a government, you're either very stupid or very lazy.
mircea_popescu: however, if it is going to be an altcoin, as in, no continuity, then it doesn't matter so much if tomorrow or yest or whenever.
mircea_popescu: benefits from all the marketing bitcoin did for it, without having to pay (in the shape of entrenched idiots of all stripes)
asciilifeform: against the printing press ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> (because there is no satisfactory way of bootstrapping any alt.) << in principle a ~WELL DESIGNED~ alt with a ~WELL CHOSEN~ pow would work quite well.
asciilifeform: (tldr: hawala over gossipd. an end to the 'anyone is a bank' dream.)
asciilifeform: and, as usual, i have a pill against these boojums, but it is very bitter and i promise that no one will want it.
asciilifeform: (because there is no satisfactory way of bootstrapping any alt.)
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 20:50:12; BingoBoingo: Like the hardfork dilemma.
asciilifeform: so unless BingoBoingo writes adacoin, there is no adacoin.
BingoBoingo: So, are we reverting back to seeing how many benjies we can shove into the bank of arse?
BingoBoingo: Like the hardfork dilemma.
asciilifeform: or rather i have quite fi
BingoBoingo: So, how do we make a better boat on the open sea?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: we had a rusty old boat. it was pathetic and barely floated, but it was a boat.
ben_vulpes: so cartelization, preservation of extant btc distribution not even desireable. sounds like a new genesis, altcoin, if the prototype is even preserveable?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i read whole thing, and cannot even begin to count the necessary barf buckets.
BingoBoingo: I'm trying to digest how this all relates if the biggest schelling point of Cliter reign follows halving.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: didja miss all the schelling point threads?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: yer a bit early for the gotterdammerung. give it time.
asciilifeform: the problem is that bees also pollinate.
asciilifeform: aha. when the bees stop making honey, they are no longer valuable livestock, but just annoying vermin.
asciilifeform: which is why every old officer wakes up screamng now and then, and recalculates, again and again
mircea_popescu: stop worring about what things mean and what may come and so forth, focus on doing the right thing at each juncture i say.
mircea_popescu: and yeah, sure, perhaps the market's not rational enough, and yeah, sure, maybe fed prints more to buy bitcoin. whatevs.
mircea_popescu: the market reaction is built out of divestment.
mircea_popescu: all through the past 7 years the whole spiel was "[these known vulnerabilities] but the miners would never dare do that because of market reaction". what exactly did you imagine that reaction is built out of ? reddit derping ?
mircea_popescu: again with the effects talk. looky : what'd you have me do, not say anything ?
asciilifeform: mp calls artillery strike on own position. takes cover in bunker. the rest of tmsr - in ???.
mircea_popescu: but yes, the enemies of sound money are certainly served by bitcoin miner cartelization. doh.
asciilifeform: which is all they want.
asciilifeform: the escape hatch from toiletpaper weimarworld closes.
asciilifeform: the enemies of sound money are uncorking champagne today.
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 20:10:03; mircea_popescu: not with the wanna-be ceos and assorted "captains of industry" ; not with the wanna-be coders and assorted "power rangers" ; not with the wanna-be journos and assorted redditards ; not with the wanna-be sikrit agents and assorted nsa tools.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i stopped reading at 'Any good solution in this space must also preserve the large investments many miners have made and are planning to make in their equipment.' and the swimming pool photo (??!)
mircea_popescu: not with the wanna-be ceos and assorted "captains of industry" ; not with the wanna-be coders and assorted "power rangers" ; not with the wanna-be journos and assorted redditards ; not with the wanna-be sikrit agents and assorted nsa tools.
mircea_popescu: anwyay, yes, bitcoin is traversing perhaps the first true crisis since its founding, between now and the halving.
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1SqDUTU )
mircea_popescu: you mean http://trilema.com/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol ?
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 19:43:06; fluffypony: mostly in the context of "we should have invited him to add a voice to this, but I doubt he'd come to the USA"
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1422900 << let's not flatter ourselves. the odds of mp showing up to "add a voice" to $randomitem are ~nil.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1422884 << well, the privacy risks aren't exactly dubious in that i don't atm see how ring signatures would prevent miner cartel from attacking bitbet. except, of course, if predicated on "miners are lazy and dumb". which is true - until they aren't. much like ants are lazy and dumb, until they get into the fridge, at which point they'll dumbly&lazily never want to leave.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1422881 << so what becomes of the outputs then. blacklisted 4evar ?
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 19:37:29; fluffypony: so in this one special case you have to maybe blacklist outputs and not mix with them
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1422868 << you realise that provability and anonimity are in this exact sense contrary desires, you will necessarily be stuck with something like this if you want to at the same time both.
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 19:23:55; asciilifeform: and even if it were so, it does not help bitbet, which ~already~ could 'prevent miners from blocking tx' IF it chose to keep them secret, but pointedly DOES NOT WANT
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 19:04:44; punkman: I think wot+credit-lines solutions are interesting, sorta like the original ripple before the derps bought the name
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1422803 << yeah, but think abotu the reason the name was sold in the first place.
deedbot-: [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - Ethereum to top $1 billion market cap before 2017 - http://bitbet.us/bet/1248/ethereum-to-top-1-billion-market-cap-before/#b20
mircea_popescu: large part of the promise and value of bitcoin is exactly this chickenizing of banking.
asciilifeform bbl, heard that the ants in the kitchen are having a conference, and wouldn't mind if he attended to 'add his voice'
fluffypony: but a question of whether or not he was invited
asciilifeform: do they also wonder why mircea_popescu won't come.
fluffypony: mostly in the context of "we should have invited him to add a voice to this, but I doubt he'd come to the USA"
asciilifeform: except perhaps in the 'you kicked my puppy so i'll kick yours' sense ?
fluffypony: ah yes, the asciilifeform "everything is bad except this hardware thing I've been working on for 4 years and still can't finish" argument
asciilifeform: now there is ~at least one~ special case to think about, whereas before there were none.
fluffypony: so in this one special case you have to maybe blacklist outputs and not mix with them
fluffypony: so there's a bucket of tens of thousands of outputs, and you routinely reveal outputs, so there's a 100% chance you're going to mix with a previously revealed output?
fluffypony: there's absolutely nothing fancy about this
asciilifeform: fluffypony: if i'm, e.g., bitbet, and ROUTINELY reveal outputs, the chance is 100%.
asciilifeform: this is the thing about fancy schemes, apparently i'm an evil terrorist for thinking 17 steps ahead instead of the apparently assumed 1 or 2.
fluffypony: consider what the chance is of you mixing with an output you've already revealed to an attacker
asciilifeform: and here we get to the boojum.
fluffypony: yes - so in any future transaction if you happen to use the same output in a ring then one of those is out
asciilifeform: for another tx
fluffypony: so if an input appears to come from 20 outputs on the blockchain there is an equiprobable chance that each of those 20 outputs is the real one
asciilifeform: so if you reveal your connection with whatever inputs, you have given non-negligible info to the enemy.
asciilifeform: the last time we had this thread !
fluffypony: READ THE WHITEPAPER
asciilifeform: srsly i am tired of the crypto abuse.
fluffypony: unless you're in the habit of publicly revealing this information for all your transactions it does nothing
fluffypony: there's actual maths in it
fluffypony: seriously, read the whitepaper
fluffypony: all it does is allow a recreation of the key images for that transaction in order to verify that you actually created it
fluffypony: you have multiple options, the easiest of which is reveal the private key for that transaction
asciilifeform: say, because you want to actually get the thing you were paying for ?
fluffypony: definitions of both of those terms are in the whitepaper
fluffypony: nobody said there was
asciilifeform: there is nothing magic about it.
fluffypony: the MRL1, MRL4, and MRL5 papers are most relevant to the more enhancements we've made or are making
fluffypony: proofs are at the end
asciilifeform: imho the notion is misguided. existing bitcoin can work this way if one wants it to. but, e.g., bitbet, DOES NOT
asciilifeform: and even if it were so, it does not help bitbet, which ~already~ could 'prevent miners from blocking tx' IF it chose to keep them secret, but pointedly DOES NOT WANT
asciilifeform: but where is the proof ?
asciilifeform: this is the claim.
fluffypony: asciilifeform: by removing the ability for miners to identify your transaction without, say, compromising your machine
asciilifeform: and what are the boundary conditions ?
fluffypony: but as to whether they can tell if a transaction is yours, yes, that's something we solve
fluffypony: punkman: miners can block whatever they want
asciilifeform: 8th c. state-of-the-art.
asciilifeform: or rather, how is this not a throwback to manually-cranked hawala.
punkman: I think wot+credit-lines solutions are interesting, sorta like the original ripple before the derps bought the name
asciilifeform: and megatonnes of other misc. retardation.
punkman: does monero solve the miner-can-block-my-tx with its ring signatures? (ping fluffypony)
asciilifeform: (with their magic bitfields, etc.)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the one thing i will say for certain is that the moving parts gotta be ~number-theoretical~ entities, rather than idiot protocol-promise goop
ben_vulpes: #bitcoin-design, rather
asciilifeform: if you want to plow a field, what would you rather have? two strong oxen? or 4294967296 cockroaches.
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 18:48:33; mircea_popescu: there's also the case of the retarded romanian workers who stuck a compressed air outlet in the woman's vagina for lulz, ended up with a fatality.
mircea_popescu: but iirc we did that in the logs.
punkman: the split uniform looks suspicious, could also be some goatse dude instead of weightlifter
mircea_popescu: there's also the case of the retarded romanian workers who stuck a compressed air outlet in the woman's vagina for lulz, ended up with a fatality.
mircea_popescu: that's the one. penn state, looks like 20 eyars ago ?
asciilifeform: on laptops, stuck with the idiocy
asciilifeform: and FUCKING NO, the idiot xmodmap thing is pointedly not it (doesn't work in the console) and the keymap derpery is also not it (doesn't work in X) and neither works in, e.g., 'dosbox'.
asciilifeform: unrelatedly, does anybody else find it curious that the linux kernel offers no way to remap keys ?
mircea_popescu: hm. i recall the exact quote. derp was "and then i felt like i was pushing extra hard..."
mircea_popescu: you recall the story of that weioghlifter who butt-exploded shattering shit and blood all over ?
asciilifeform: yeah but is there enough pressure.
asciilifeform: then - next.
asciilifeform: blowing out his guts through the arse.
asciilifeform: and stuff the air hose down moth
mircea_popescu: by and large, quite happy with hitler. at least he's not english. then degaulle came up with a piously fraudulent reinterpretation of the early 40s
asciilifeform: there is an interesting (ru) account of a witness who saw the latvians, in anticipation of german arrival, have some fun at a yeshiva
mircea_popescu: loved the jew burning.
asciilifeform: stalin followed peter's 'colonization with the crown as sole european' model.
mircea_popescu: if only there were enslaving.
asciilifeform: what anglos toil in the philippines ?
mircea_popescu: similarly there
asciilifeform: the ukrs pulled a successful 'fast one' by swallowing up several mil. native ru folk.
mircea_popescu: depends on your definition thereof.
asciilifeform: not in the sense BingoBoingo asked for
mircea_popescu: so then yes - ukraine, direct equiv ?
gribble: Pinoy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinoy>; Urban Dictionary: pinoy: <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pinoy>; Pinoy Tambayan | Watch Pinoy TV Shows Online: <http://www.pinoytvshows.org/>
mircea_popescu: and 100% of what sets the piony - quite temporarily - above the monekys in the zoo is of anglo design and manufacture
asciilifeform: 100% of what sets the ukrs - quite temporarily - above the monkeys in the zoo, is of su design and manufacture.
asciilifeform: well there is a dimm on my desk stamped 'made in philippines.' there is not, and i looked, one 'made in kenya'.
mircea_popescu: how are the phillipines distinguished from kenya ?
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: You may have to flense your wordpress further or consider an alternate blogotron based off of werc (Which I have been thinking about but have lacked the chance to explore myself yet)
deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] The mega-problem of bitcoin - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/the-mega-problem-of-bitcoin/
assbot: French parliament votes to jail tech execs who refuse to decrypt data • The Register ... ( http://bit.ly/21QCKDz )
jurov: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/03/04/france_to_jail_tech_execs_over_encryption davout wtf?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: You know. One it converts to speaking ru while leaving to maintain it's tribal intellectual poverty. Maybe the Aleuts or something? Or did RU/SU not do this?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/225HX7Q.txt << lulz from btc-e crudbox. apparently they make filipinos in ru.
thestringpuller: i guess this is where the phrase, "Can I get what you're somking" comes from
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: i'm half tempted to temporarily lower my iq with drugs just to understand "them" better...
BingoBoingo: I'm honestly pleased that the spanish used it so simple as to be easily and painlessly read without translating thinking
BingoBoingo: outcome doesn't matter, but conversation in the media is everything
asciilifeform: (because the case is not about any of this idiocy, but something else)
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: incidentally, nowhere in volkischer beobachter will you find mention of the 100s of folks who mailed in offers to usg to root the pnohe with the very simple nand flash removal method.
BingoBoingo: ^ shinohai see above, maybe get a blog to practice the writing thing on not-news so that you may better news.
BingoBoingo: I'll dig up the archive of the theo mail but he sent it today if anyone else wants to dig first
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 16:19:23; BingoBoingo: In other news looks like OpenBSD Vax is ending at 5.9 as Vax hardware reaches end of operating afterlife.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1422613 << iirc there is an acceptably good emulator, but this would sorta defeat the purpose
BingoBoingo: In other news looks like OpenBSD Vax is ending at 5.9 as Vax hardware reaches end of operating afterlife.
mircea_popescu: deedbot-> [Qntra] Correction Takes Bitcoin Network Difficulty Down 3.1% <<< curious if the drops till july will add up to 50% or not.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: I mean the vacation that lets you afford other vacations. You know the one where you sit in a cabin to make trb fork. Not full adacoin, but the possibility of adacoin.
mircea_popescu: us dept of state can do ~ nothing, but direct the dod to lose some more items .
asciilifeform: if u.s. dept of state can take his goats, he is the same as costco.
mircea_popescu: lol yeeeeah, that worked really well with the embargo and all lol. anyway.
asciilifeform: all confiscatable money is the same.
mircea_popescu: the problem here might be psychogenic.
mircea_popescu: ok, ok, prince ibrahim the unknown al saud.
asciilifeform: all tentacles of fiat are the same animal.
asciilifeform: and costco is something other than usg ?
mircea_popescu: kinda what i was going to say next, "don't worry too much, things have a way of sorting themselves out"
mircea_popescu: actually - much fewer idiots then, of the purely idiotarian type. of course all sorts of actual idiots seemed quite reasonable, pleasant folk, but what can you do.
asciilifeform: and other folks at least working towards kakoization.
mircea_popescu: no work done on satoshi codebase has yet been wasted, except that done for other people than us, or outside of b-a.
mircea_popescu: anyway, to the more general point : all our understanding as to how bitcoin should work, see for instance yest discussion, comes from dissecting how prototype-bitcoin did in fact work.
mircea_popescu: outlasting is, as far as one can discern, the implicit goal of life on earth.
BingoBoingo: Outlasting? Isn't that the point of every cult?
asciilifeform: what'd be the point?
asciilifeform: they have infinite hitpoint. as mircea_popescu taught us.
mircea_popescu: that was not yet called either prb or core or anything, because before we came and crackd the nut, inanities avbout how "only one bitcoin software" still had currency amongthe ruminant herd.
mircea_popescu: well, not like it HAS to close. it can also continue doing what it did for the ~first half year of its existence, which is to say critique whatever prb
asciilifeform: and there is no way in hell that adacoin by july, unless mircea_popescu writes it himself...
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 15:13:36; mircea_popescu: the intellectual value of the work trying to get it to work goes to that great place in the sky where everyone's work ever goes, gauss, newton, who have you.
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 14:51:11; mircea_popescu: ^ for the record, i've been divesting, if slowly.
mircea_popescu: i suppose IF the july many-fork time comes and trb has nothing to offer then it might as well close.
mircea_popescu: the intellectual value of the work trying to get it to work goes to that great place in the sky where everyone's work ever goes, gauss, newton, who have you.
mircea_popescu: technically the value pumped into the old btc all comes from hitler anyway. what, ustard has money now ?
mircea_popescu: and honestly, what the everloving fuck do i care. bitcoin with mining cartel is literally, and i do mean LITERALLY just a very slow, unreliable and expensive visa run by idiots.
mircea_popescu: anyway, no fiddy cents. coupla hundy should be enough. miners can't actually support their shit even at current prices, if it halves.
asciilifeform: who is to make wunderwaffen then.
mircea_popescu: aite then.
mircea_popescu: strictly because the common man is an unrepentant imbecile proud of his imbecility, but that's a secondary consideration.
mircea_popescu: it is just about absolutely clear for me that bitcoin, just like any other technology to date, brings about absolutely no betterment for the common man.
mircea_popescu: i even got the timing almost right. half month precision over 3 years in bitcoin is pretty impressive.
mircea_popescu: 2nd one. not exactly news, this, is it ? was on the books for 3 years.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell asciilifeform about crapple trial see http://qntra.net/2016/02/fbi-iphone-circle-jerk-theater/ for my perspective. *Interesting* other perspectives welcome.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by the looks of it, roughly around july there will be an open competition of ~myriad forks on the market.
mircea_popescu: some idiot somewhere last year looked at whatever the fuck they look at and came to the conclusion that "we'll win this one apple - style, vc and software plox!"
asciilifeform: with what is the forkwar to be fought?
mircea_popescu: mno, they don't watch anything, just keep humming this tune in their head. which is perfectly fine and utterly uninteresting.
mircea_popescu: well, if they had been following power they'd be sending their irs receipts to me rather than obama.
mircea_popescu: except i couldn't care less about the derps. what, you think they're people or something ?
asciilifeform: aha, when you kill a derp, you do it on the public stake, not by dropping a snowstorm on him, no?
asciilifeform: but this way the idiots can carry on thinking 'it just happened because the winds blew'