mircea_popescu: lettuce not blame the bearer of bad news.
mircea_popescu: the weakness in the pow and the poor mining/relayer design created perverse incentives not directly apparent in the design phase, however.
mircea_popescu: that was at no point the problem.
mircea_popescu: i'll put some boxes to it as a seed, whosoever wants to do the same can do the same and it can take it from there.
mircea_popescu: if mining works correctly (ie, as he naively intended it would) the initial allocation as designed is fine.
asciilifeform: but afaik there is not a plausible alternative.
asciilifeform: the one problem that i was not able to solve, now just as a decade ago when i started thinking about it, is 'initial allocation.' satoshi's solution, as can be seen now, was retarded.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what i was trying to say is that no one, afaik, has ever proposed and implemented entirely novel mechanism.
thestringpuller: for next experiment: remove satoshi and his dope from the equation completely
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it was straight satoshi with new genesis iirc.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller indeed.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/ << well there was this, and then ATC failed around that time
mircea_popescu: and there is a very good vp on the table. gossip + proper hashes and ciphers + correct pow + proper relay/mine design + + +
asciilifeform: everybody had chunks of rotting satoshade in there.
asciilifeform: afaik there was not yet, to date, a from-scratch thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for your own peace of mind : i would ~definitely~ support a beedog coin, irrespective of how cartel mining impasse is resolved or the eventual fate of current-bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: if you get them in one package, should prolly be "all of them", ie a crate. esp if no hurry.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: discussing hypothetical new pistol.
mircea_popescu: you can break bitcoin w/o breaking the internet, which is a problem.
asciilifeform: strangers when-there-is-room.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the venetians had gas masks.
nubbins`: do a 180 and see the park where nubs plays frisbee and smokes dope
asciilifeform: the conn rst thing is because we're talking to strangerz and using idiot unauthed plaintext.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 13:56:16; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423491 << hashing whole block significantly weakens the protocol against attacks from non-bitcoin actors however. think your conn rst sufferences on a large scale.
nubbins`: nothing particular about cluny macpherson until he invented the gas mask
nubbins`: there's nothing particular about anyone, pre-action
asciilifeform: there is nothing particular about asciilifeform.
thestringpuller: should be making "free asciilifeform" t-shirts and protesting the white house
nubbins`: and smth tells me alf would find it vulgar to quantify these vagaries
nubbins`: without actual dollar figures these arguments are absolute fucking wankery
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: it is not.
nubbins`: we do here too, and capital gains are taxed at 11% across the board
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: we have, but I think you overestimate the facilities required to execute such a plan...
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: could've sworn we had this thread.
nubbins`: wait, btc is money in the USA, isn't it?
asciilifeform: i'd rather burn it.
asciilifeform: the way it works is that if i sold, e.g., 10k of coin, i get to give 4k to usg immediately.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: slavery is slavery, however i must admit house niggas were treated better than the outdoor field niggas.
nubbins`: could blank out the mortgage tomorrow, but dat capital gains tax.
nubbins`: 's house is halfway there
asciilifeform: nubbins`: iirc we had this thread. you paid off the house.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i must wonder if you would still agree if you knew what i do to pay for the 'get to'.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: it's better to be a light skinned house-boy than to work the fields...
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: the very poverty consists in the sort of things i do to ~not~ live 'in the projects', with roommates a la nubbins`, or eat recycled food, etc.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: being a slave, it would be stepping outside of my competence to attempt the use of any other kind of definition.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: you should move to projects for a year an live like the actual slave negros.
asciilifeform: i don't take it with them.
asciilifeform: how the hell would i know what dope my neighbours take ?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: at least 20
nubbins`: thestringpuller he lives in DC
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: understand what 'poor' means
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: do you live off food stamps, or drink 40's on the stoop?
nubbins` flatly doesn't believe alf is "poor" in any reasonable sense of the word
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah well for living off capital it helps having capital, and it helps even more (say H(N^2)) to be the kind of spirit that is helped by capital
nubbins`: alf, i don't think you quite understand how few shittier countries exist than the one you're in
asciilifeform: which then
asciilifeform: (i would even use antifuse roms but they are NOT SOLD)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423707 << definitely discussed. there is deliberately no simple way of refirmwaring the thing.
mircea_popescu: you could airdrop them from orbit on alf's house. seeing how he lives next door to obama's rural cousin #5460580, prolly give norad a good wake-up.
nubbins`: or just the outer space one
nubbins`: in fairness, i'd ship the box via canada post.
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu>http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423517 << if you actually want them you prolly can have them for the cost of sheeping. <<< he's right
mircea_popescu: and yes, i can readily credit myself retrospectively with saving bitcoin through that, but why even bother.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423536 << obvious or not, not really the case. last i did something like this was when i said "100 is good enough" and people insisted on running up to 1k.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423517 << if you actually want them you prolly can have them for the cost of sheeping.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 10:43:36; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423477 << the way to kill pools is to hash he WHOLE BLOCK, rather than header. but as mircea_popescu pointed out, it is not merely ~pools~ that are colluding, but actual ~miners~, so it solves nothing.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423491 << hashing whole block significantly weakens the protocol against attacks from non-bitcoin actors however. think your conn rst sufferences on a large scale.
nubbins`: “I took LSD when I was working on ‘Return of the Jedi,’ and it’s fine. It was, like, very calming. And so I decided to go back to work. When I walked into the blue-screen stage, it was like, ‘Ahhh.’ I took way too much,”
assbot: Oscar-Winning Star Wars Animator Admits He Took LSD While Working On Return Of The Jedi ... ( http://bit.ly/1oZOTaX )
nubbins`: http://collectivelyconscious.net/articles/oscar-winning-star-wars-animator-admits-he-took-lsd-while-working-on-return-of-the-jedi/
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1oZOJjK )
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116715
nubbins` can't imagine the sort of mindset required to believe that the only two viable options for one's future are stasis or a $10mn windfall
nubbins`: alf the absolutist
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: ?
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: then why business as usual if bitcoin is dead?
nubbins`: within the bounds of credulity
nubbins`: in a perfect world where the transfer of such goods or the provision of such services was able to take place in absolute secrect
asciilifeform: and i'm not interested in it being scanned in usg mail, either.
nubbins`: asciilifeform there's always bullion
asciilifeform: the former.
thestringpuller: going to 0 as in game over? or going to 0 for a minute then we'll be back to $X price.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: because it's going to 0?
asciilifeform: scorched motherfucking earth.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: i won't sell for fiat because it gets taxed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, as far as i can tell, is right, and there is nothing to buy.
thestringpuller: only good thing to sell BTC for is fiat, but whats the point in that if your income 99% fiat
mircea_popescu: maybe specifying the problem you're trying to solve would help.
asciilifeform: dun need these for anything. i don't even own iron that could run eulora.
mircea_popescu: wait, the criteria is "buy something useful with bitcoin" && "seller may not give btc to usd" ?
mircea_popescu: but - eulora copper. not only exact answer, but provably the only one.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 13:18:04; mircea_popescu: 18<nubbins`> buy something with it. oh wait, the seller may convert it to usd. << he got the exact answer, but wouldn't take it, because reasons.
nubbins`: thestringpuller ahh yes, from pepa chan
mircea_popescu: 18<nubbins`> buy something with it. oh wait, the seller may convert it to usd. << he got the exact answer, but wouldn't take it, because reasons.
nubbins`: flat stock is something people put on their wall & admire -- see "Imagine a game" bitcoin posters
thestringpuller: nubbins`: oh well cool. i guess I'll just wait for the big 3-0
nubbins`: mircea_popescu we've been moving the biz away from textile printing and towards paper/fine art printing
nubbins`: thestringpuller you're technically still a child at 28
mircea_popescu: oh, well then really - this is above industry average.
nubbins`: i think something around 20-30% of them left my hands
mircea_popescu: ah, even better then!
nubbins`: was not insignificant for our fledgling business at the time
nubbins`: understood. thanks for the work!
mircea_popescu: thanks for your kind help in the matter - feel free to distribute the remaining tees to whosoever you feel like and that'd be that.
mircea_popescu: * asciilifeform had nfi >> you recall, we made a t-shirt design, he agreed to print for a very nice rate, ended up storing them for us.
asciilifeform: there is literally nothing to buy
nubbins`: buy something with it. oh wait, the seller may convert it to usd.
nubbins`: well your other option is to keep it
asciilifeform: didja miss the part where i refuse to give ANY of it to usg?
asciilifeform: neither
nubbins`: there
nubbins`: yeah, more or less. everyone QQing about the fyootur
asciilifeform: nubbins`: didja catch up with the log?
nubbins`: (what other vs did you expect?!)
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 12:59:16; nubbins`: or did you guys just assume that bitbet divs and a vidya game were enough to keep it all together
nubbins`: or did you guys just assume that bitbet divs and a vidya game were enough to keep it all together
nubbins`: they're already paid for 8)
nubbins`: in retrospect, prob pulled the trigger a bit early on ordering tees
nubbins`: mircea_popescu the current lease on floor space expires April 30 2016; property will be considered to be abandoned if arrangements not made by that point
nubbins`: it's a "work machine", so i'm more concerned about how it runs illustrator than how well it protects the private keys that aren't on it
nubbins`: but it was beterrn that and the 6502 for a while
nubbins`: sadly, i went for the modern comforts of an i5 (i know)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423477 << the way to kill pools is to hash he WHOLE BLOCK, rather than header. but as mircea_popescu pointed out, it is not merely ~pools~ that are colluding, but actual ~miners~, so it solves nothing.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 07:26:07; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how would you limit the number of addresses/coinbases in a pow-for-addr scheme?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423470 << trivially: an addr is valid if a coinbase some time fed it, and not otherwise. (in this hypothetical alt)
ben_vulpes: i think that the above change would necessitate a new genesis block, as i suspect that difficulty is far too high for the hardware capable of hashing as described to generate a single block in any sort of reasonable time
ben_vulpes: if it's possible to confirm that the contents of `sig` corresponded to the *single* `addr` to which the block subsidy+fees (eg first transaction) pays out, i believe that the addidional `addr` header field could be omitted.
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1QWvD4x )
ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116712 << asciilifeform, mod6, jurov, PeterL, mircea_popescu, kakobrekla (in moderation, hopefully passes the bowels of mircea_popescu's wprexen soon)
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: how would you limit the number of addresses/coinbases in a pow-for-addr scheme?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/#comment-116709 << lose a kingdom, gain another, or how did that go.
gernika: asciilifeform: cheapair.com seems to still take btc. I bought some tix to europe from them with btc a few years ago.
asciilifeform: l0l pet could not even be persuaded to go to the funfest c3!
asciilifeform: the one thing i cannot buy with whatever.
mircea_popescu: so send the pet over on a btc-fueled joyride.
asciilifeform: the one thing i pointedly won't do with it is give it to usg.
mircea_popescu: not like there's all that much ELSE to do with bitcoin anyway
mircea_popescu: "The failure of the GOP and the conservative movement, to the extent one exists in the United States, to police their ranks for con artists like Glenn Beck out to fleece their rank has lead to this." // "The success of sympathy conmen like Glenn Beck or Donald Trump enjoy fleecing the angry-socialist flock makes one wonder whether the GOP even exists in any meaningful sense."
mircea_popescu: "the word "collectible" is attached the coins" << samne problem. good idea but the writing...
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "The anger of the base directed at anything: socialism, political correctness, brown people, etc; which they feel is giving them an unfair shake. This demographic also carries a substantial number of people among them who have traits that make them readily victimized for con artists." missing a verb, no idea what's going on at the end and prolly 50% too many words
CrazyTruthYakDDS: hell, factom is better, as it is at least taking advantage of the BTC blockchain/security if i am not mistaken
CrazyTruthYakDDS: and the only real "value" people have pushed is that microsoft azure is using it as an api
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-03-2016#1423367 << aha! in brin's ver, it was a traveller, who didnt like the food, and before packing up, spitefully shouts 'hey guyz! some of you have horns!'
CrazyTruthYakDDS: since oh you can't use the blockchain for coffee purchase
CrazyTruthYakDDS: oh the logs, forgot about those duh :P
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, major pump and dump. it's in the logs if not on trilema./
gribble: The importance of backups, from the other side. on Trilema - A blog ...: <http://trilema.com/2015/the-importance-of-backups-from-the-other-side/>
asciilifeform: but logically == to the linked ver.
asciilifeform: brin's version had h cuckolds grow horns, which only ~other blokes~ could see.
asciilifeform: (by - believe or not - brin the elder)
asciilifeform: ^ closest to the version i was taught.
asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu know the 'blue eyes puzzle' ?
asciilifeform: one of which seems to me, to be the conclusion that anyone with btc is bagholder.
asciilifeform: which i am trying to derive the implications of.
asciilifeform: nah mircea_popescu is doing precisely the logical thing.
asciilifeform: besides the manometer speaks for itself.
mircea_popescu: looky : i said divesting, and you're not going to obtain clarification or further infos about it no matter how it gets turned around.
mircea_popescu: i dunno... trade it for ethereum. support what's the fatass' name, with the "consensus" bullcrap ? huey something ?
asciilifeform: well mircea_popescu , what do you think they would do?
asciilifeform: what's sad is also that the observables from my console are only with great difficulty distinguishable from above scenario.
mircea_popescu: of fucking course ? do it faster next time ? what ? either you take shorter than there's time or longer. tnd.
mircea_popescu: engineering consistently presents management with two options : a) either shit takes forever or b) well now there's no pistol.
mircea_popescu: omaigerd. what the fuck did you expect was going to happen.
mircea_popescu: well - i thought you didn't like the father pistols, and shouldn't you be thankful this one's dislodging ?
mircea_popescu: in other the same news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/3e98e7c55649dc7423de0eb26630625a/tumblr_mihjrzicaj1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: so there's really no call for dramatics, in my own mind. gotta do all the work one can as well as one can and see what tomorrow brings.
mircea_popescu: mod6 even if - and consider i'm speaking of a purely cartoon view of reality, merely for illustration purposes - even if trbf "misses the boat" and instead dilligently focuses on fixing satoshi code, and three years later the "winner" of july competition falls on sword that trbf actually fouind and fixed, the relative position of trbf in the world has not suffered one iota.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure we actually took a single walk around the whole item
asciilifeform: punkman: if you want a dollar cardano, call up ft meade and rsa co., they will happily sell it to you today!
mircea_popescu: mod6 part of the problem here is that
mod6: we should probably discuss solutions, write a spec of new bitcoin, then implement new bitcoin
shinohai: Well Gentleman, I have certainly enjoyed working with you all on trb from the past ~1 year nonetheless.
mircea_popescu: i have no fucking idea what the future looks like.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then how about you make the thing and once it's made we figure out the marketing plan,
asciilifeform: was doing the one thing i knew of that might help, i thought, to nail hitler.
mircea_popescu: well therefore argument is invalid ?
mircea_popescu: how is feb 5th differfent from march 5th ? there's a pile of shitty code implementing sort-of kinda badly a concept, that's being extracted to light.
mircea_popescu: what do you expect changed with trb ? you weren't doing it to get rich, were you ? you weren't doing it for redditettes to throw their panties at you, were you ?
mircea_popescu: and in other icecream news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx1956mUMp1qz7dr7o1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: (i'm not porposing you have a lot - merely poking fun at the rounding process you prolly use regardless)
mircea_popescu: rounded to the nearest million ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it made sense. but note that it was principally the irc chan that sold me.
mircea_popescu: note that my interest in computers is, these days, ~strictly predicated on trb.
mircea_popescu: soviet world had it's own free subset ; much like the 1984 world has its free subset. the people running the black market that orwell does not even wish to consider.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck did you imagine the various items and pillars to build a coherent world-envelloping system come to me so easily ? i'm not coming up with fucking wot-economy and pgp-corporations and all this de novo, i'm just applying to pre-existing items!
mircea_popescu: but otherwise...
mircea_popescu: without these things ~free world accessible to arbitrary $fortune~ is a dream.
asciilifeform: without these things, free world is a dream.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dawg, portofolios get adjusted all the time in response to market conditions, whadda ya want.
mod6: is there anything in anyones opinion that the foundation could do with trb to move past this problem?
asciilifeform: in jp there are 1500+ yr old 'tsunami stones'.
mircea_popescu: and hopefully the next crop will have more sense.
mircea_popescu: we at the very least achieve a very useful head of a mongoloid on a stick for the education of future retarded children of (principally) asian mothers,
mircea_popescu: so : by breaking the capital investment of the current idiots that had the unmitigated audacity to meet and the breathtaking stupidity to not only admit it, but bring it like some sort of value in public, like the mongoloid children proud of his fingerpainting works in his own shit
mircea_popescu: and the degree of brokedness bitcoin experiences now, post-cartelization (an event which we'd more or less date as occuring either in degrees or at some point between the high-s fork and march trhe 3rd)
mircea_popescu: but anyway - there's a substantial difference between the degree of brokedness bitcoin experienced between 2010 and about 2013ish, where imbecile independent miners nevertheless gave their vote blank to "pool" operators (mcuh like idiot shareholders let the various brokers to vote for them)
assbot: Logged on 25-08-2015 18:53:47; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: workfunctions, there was once some theoretical work concerning 'non-outsourceable puzzles', i.e. mathematical magic preventing the formation of pools by allowing any pool participant to silently and untraceably claim the entire block reward. but i cannot recall if this went anywhere other than academiwankery.
mod6: mircea_popescu: so if your pre-req for change to btc protocol was adopted, and ASICs were rendered useless, how does one begin to attack the problem of mining pools?
Reydev: hey guys is the current discussion still related to the bitbet payout thing discussed some days ago?
asciilifeform: and when the time comes and beijing prints, while swedish coolies toil, beijing will be indistinguishable from today's washington.
mircea_popescu: "these idiots were given an opportunity, and they figured running the rigs as efficiently as possible is everything that may ever matter."
mircea_popescu: nobody in the us has done a spot of work in about fifty years.
asciilifeform: lizards print, while others work. that is what fiat is. in roman debased silver, or today.
mircea_popescu: it ended, long ago, various 2nd hand leaders a la putin now and again go to kick the once-great, currently ridiculous loser.
mircea_popescu: they have no power, no influence, no impact and no credibility.
mircea_popescu: the united states of america DO NOT MATTER.
mircea_popescu: dude wouldja stop with the usg shoehorning ?
asciilifeform: there was, e.g., no usg whitelist.
asciilifeform: the cartel was not reliably in control.
mircea_popescu: not that the philipinos won't be coming out of the underbrush to push the unexpected "just as good" verbiage, or w/e.
asciilifeform: with their swords.
mircea_popescu: if it's of interest or not it is their call to make neh ?
asciilifeform: but to say that mircea_popescu's retreat is of no interest to mpex users, beggars the imagination and melts my brain.
asciilifeform: and prop up the state.
BingoBoingo thinks MPEx can have important role as market between BlightCoin and Coin during the transition.
mircea_popescu: to random microshit investor, bitcoin is the same as flooz.
BingoBoingo will nevar be able to get an address in another currency as beautiful as 1LvCuntsJyFFQsLuJhBXBPokbQa7SAyMr4 again
asciilifeform: what does mircea_popescu say to the shareholders? 'enjoy the ride dowd to the ground from 20,000 metres' ?