nubbins`: idgaf about some 17btc transaction, only to point out that if someone touts targeted collusion as the most likely answer, they're probably selling something
nubbins`: i should just state the obvious explanation and let whoever wants to sing about cartel collusion do so
nubbins`: danielpbarron why in the fuck would i do that? i'm not so cheap that i can't afford a dime for fees
nubbins`: given that miners who run node farms aren't fucking idiots, it seems implausible to assume that halting rebroadcast of lowest-priority tx's until the backlog is cleared is not a thing that would happen
nubbins`: given that it's trivial to create a large backlog of old coins, it seems implausible to think that mp's relatively new coins could not simultaneously be high enough priority to be kept in mempool but low enough priority that it's one of the last tx's to be cleared
davout: mircea_popescu: these weren't me
nubbins`: given that age is a factor in propagating tx's, it seems implausibly short-sighted to assume that miners don't keep a portion of their earnings untouched to build up age
nubbins`: why do extra work when the timer's counting down? adding a single extra output could mean the difference between mining a block and not
gribble: enjoy following the convo
nubbins`: ;;echo enjoy following the convo
davout: danielpbarron: also splitting coinbases directly hurts the miner's bottom line
mircea_popescu: and welcome to the wonder of halfway logs. sigh.
nubbins`: this doesn't preclude the fact that /any/ individual pool miner can have 10%, or 50%, or 100% of his daily take socked away immediately into long-term storage
nubbins`: why don't you see pool-mined blocks split the reward into a million outputs?
nubbins`: they're not trapped in place
nubbins`: uh, you know you can move the coins again, right?
nubbins`: do you suppose any large-scale miner would be anything but a complete fucking idiot if they haven't been socking away a percentage of each block reward for use when old coins are needed?
nubbins`: do you suppose there are any miners out there who'd be interested in generating a large mempool backlog for any given reason?
nubbins`: also, don't change the argument into how feasible it is for a lowly shoemaker to pull it off
shinohai: "Anyone can access it and submit answers, which means that anyone can impersonate a police officer, prosecutor, or other law enforcement official."
nubbins`: but a cabal saying "OK guise, he paid out from a new source, let's get A1 back out there!".... c'mon
nubbins`: hell, maybe the "bitbet stole my coinz" guy relayed it
nubbins`: if you think the relaying of A1 was triggered by B, you're daft
davout: not sure what makes you say that the tx reappearing needs any kind of explanation other than "people like extra money"
davout: asciilifeform: any bitbet recipient had a strong incentive to rebroadcast, as soon as the second transaction actually paid them
asciilifeform: but the resurrection still has to be explained.
asciilifeform: if it actually had 'days old' input, then this was reactor test.
nubbins`: asciilifeform the age of A1's inputs ranged from a couple days to a couple months iirc
asciilifeform: i have nfi, btw, what the age was. did you look into it?
nubbins`: calling A1 spam was a stretch and not correct, but calling A1 anything other than the absolute lowest priority is unreasonable
asciilifeform: the usual way?
nubbins`: how does a node operator distinguish between the 50,000 spam 0-fee tx's and bitbet's 0-fee tx?
nubbins`: 0-fee tx followed by 3 double-spend attempts in the midst of a mempool backlog
asciilifeform: nubbins`: most of them are spam
asciilifeform: that was his point, no? that the scum took over.
nubbins`: if ant/f2 own 500 nodes out of an available 560, how in the fuck are you gonna see a transaction that they're not broadcasting?
nubbins`: once that's in place, whatever rules they set are essentially universal
nubbins`: if there was 60 live nodes last year, it seems extremely improbable that a mining cartel wouldn't rent out a data center and stuff it with nodes
asciilifeform: all but the resurrection
nubbins`: asciilifeform do note that collusion on tx relay nodes in the form of "don't broadcast 0-fee tx's if the mempool is > x" would explain observed behaviour
asciilifeform: i.e. gatherings for whatever purpose
asciilifeform: one more thing. careful readers of the logz will have noticed that the cn miners have openly admitted collusion
jurov: i can offer coinbr users' coins for the experiments... seems using users' funds is en vogue
nubbins`: how'd the mempool look when that guy's tx was sent out?
nubbins`: shinohai re: the link you posted
punkman: anyway if someone can replicate the experiment with similarly old coins, that would not favor the bitbet-screwed-by-miners theory
nubbins`: my node wouldn't have broadcast A1 until the backlog subsided
punkman: the fact it was resurrected is not surprising if you ask me
asciilifeform: (and here was even the high-S thing also involved)
punkman: gotta explain why the 0fee tx wasn't visible in anyone's mempool for days, although I don't know how exactly mp examined the mempools and of which nodes he was connecting to
asciilifeform: gotta explain the resurrected tx, no?
nubbins`: asciilifeform first things first, sturles' theory: fell apart upon examination or no?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the point re: mpex is valid imho.
nubbins`: kako and i seem to agree that nothing about sturles' theory "fell apart upon examination", although we'd both be eager to hear your thoughts on the topic
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
kakobrekla: actually this somewhat fixes "bitcoin is too accessible" as the requirements to include tx in a block are having your own block producing setup
nubbins`: danielpbarron if your interest in a subject is predicated on who else is interested in it, then i have no sensible response
nubbins`: if mp no longer finds a use for btc, i'm eagerly awaiting the liquidation of all mpex assets
nubbins` is a bit surprised that more lords aren't concerned about mp's shame leading him to proposing an altcoin as the way forward
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: and "shouldn't work that way" does not mean the same thing as "did not happen"
nubbins`: maybe the market got confused and accidentally dumped 500btc worth of MPOE over the last 24 hours instead of dumping all their btc
nubbins`: weird that the chinese mining cartel revealing themselves hasn't affected the exchange rate
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 2 to -1 with note: tinpot dictator, throws tantrums when embarrassed. petulant and unwilling to admit error in the face of overwhelming evidence. a poor example of how a lord should behave. great for milking a few BTC from, but otherwise avoid.
nubbins`: !rate mircea_popescu -1 tinpot dictator, throws tantrums when embarrassed. petulant and unwilling to admit error in the face of overwhelming evidence. a poor example of how a lord should behave. great for milking a few BTC from, but otherwise avoid.
nubbins`: if that's a "theory falling apart", i'd like to see you guys take on gravity, or germ theory
nubbins`: all i see is mp and alf complaining loudly that sturles' node shouldn't work the way it does because it's improper
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
mircea_popescu: believe it or not IN FUCKING MARCH the spanyards do not yet rightly know whether that fucktard won or not the december election.
mircea_popescu: alrighty. so then it waits.
jurov: doh, they are incredibly slow.. there is "allocation of seats" link but they have not done it yet.
mircea_popescu: in more practical news - jurov here's one for you. https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/ is to be resolved. problem is the res source gives vote % and not a word re seats, and the bet is re seats.
nubbins`: if ever there was an indication that mp stopped giving a fuck about anything but spending the usd he cashed his btc out into, this is it
nubbins`: aaaand ftr i meant what i said about being relieved of duties, imagine sending a 17btc tx out into the wild and then /sending the same amount of money again from a different address/
nubbins`: seems pretty obvious that in a huge backlog of transactions, one of them is going to be the lowest priority
mircea_popescu: plenty o' room for idea guys all over the webs.
nubbins`: sorry guys, anyone who thinks MP's explanation makes more sense needs their head checked at a trauma hospital
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for nubbins` from 2 to -1 with note: more or less shoemaker insistent on derping above the crepidam.
mircea_popescu: !rate nubbins` -1 more or less shoemaker insistent on derping above the crepidam.
mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: lel, "go write a theory"
mircea_popescu: there's no "logical rebuttal". you have some facts, go write a theory. maybe i'll bother reading it. seeing who it comes from, probably not. that's all.
nubbins`: try another one!
nubbins`: do you suppose maybe there were other 0-fee high priority transactions floating around at that time? hmm? check out a graph of the mempool size
mircea_popescu: apparently the way the internet works [according to idiots] is that one guy that knows about things by virtue of being one of the guys that actually do things describes some facts, and is now obliged to entertain the half-baked idiocy of any random opiner.
nubbins`: then a1 blocked a4
nubbins`: then a1 blocked a3
nubbins`: accepting but not advertising them -- isn't
mircea_popescu: nubbins`> all will be discarded because A1 is waiting for the cheap seats << except the part where these nodes would also advertise it, which they didn't do. and except for the part where nodes that keep txn forever are am yth. and except for anything actually to do with reality, as opposed to some cartoon someone saw last year on tedspeak or w/e.
nubbins`: you're sniffing glue if you think a cartel withholding bitbet payouts is the simplest explanation
mircea_popescu: but congrats on being the nth lazy thinker who has a simple theory in his head, cut ~80% of the facts or so that fit it, and is ready to reddit about the matter.
nubbins`: ("you don't get to say what the logic is! &c")
nubbins`: how ya figure, because the logic doesn't follow
mircea_popescu: nubbins`> http://qntra.net/2016/03/a-miner-problem/#comment-47702 << FTR i thought this was obv the case << because it's neither obvious nor the case.
nubbins`: i cannot see the ground!
nubbins`: i feel bad carrying on but this is seriously the highest lelevator i've ever been in
jurov: lmao. but they could have pestered davout to get much better price from his bot instead
nubbins`: or, y'know, a cartel blowing their cover by fucking with bitbet payouts.
jurov: <ad break>You could have got x.eur from me with only 2% fee over vwap and flipped them at these insane prices!</ad>
nubbins`: but if three other high priority taco lovers clog their toilets first, i'm waiting in line
jurov: whotf puts these asks on x.eur
nubbins`: all will be discarded because A1 is waiting for the cheap seats
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TYAbOv )
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#comment-116722
nubbins`: and since it's in the queue, you can make as many As as you like
nubbins`: if there's only so much space in a block for 0-fee tx's, and the mempool is overflowing, obviously it's gonna take days for your 0-fee tx to get put into a block, even if everyone knows about it
nubbins`: you know after the fact, it turns out
nubbins`: sure, if the mempool hadn't been olympic sized
nubbins`: whoever constructed A1 should be relieved of their duties
nubbins`: "bitbet, where payouts are literally the lowest priority"
nubbins`: <mircea_popescu> does this come with an absolute guarantee that i am not responsible for anything past raw tx, and if it never gets included, bettor is out the money, because i will not under any circumstances repay it ? << lel better not stick with 0-fee tx if you're gonna go that route.
nubbins`: http://qntra.net/2016/03/a-miner-problem/#comment-47702 << FTR i thought this was obv the case upon reading the article and was baffled as to why it took so long for someone to mention.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 00:45:43; mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/jurov-slime.png < jurov asciilifeform phf and other lisp aficionados.
deedbot-: [Trilema] The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement - http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/jurov-slime.png < jurov asciilifeform phf and other lisp aficionados.
mircea_popescu: the two buck bitcoin fork.,
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TYjVgd )
ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116719 << sig(digest, pkey). this does nothing for the transacting protocol, but ensures that the device that mined a block /also/ has the privkey for the block subsidy.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423761 << nubbins` will be pleased to learn that this is pet's favourite 'ever' thing from the logz.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 21:38:23; nubbins`: "The KeRanger application was signed with a valid Mac app development certificate; therefore, it was able to bypass Apple’s Gatekeeper protection."
nubbins`: "The KeRanger application was signed with a valid Mac app development certificate; therefore, it was able to bypass Apple’s Gatekeeper protection."
nubbins`: that's up there with linux mint serving up bogus ISOs
mircea_popescu: and in other bitcoin news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/17e2293db4434f81bc5aa68d643c8c85/tumblr_mgs749gbFs1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-03-2016#1423705 << not all can bee-dog like the pros!
BingoBoingo: Supposedly they are getting a 100 inches of snow soon. Can't fall into the ocean soon enough
BingoBoingo: Why be another allah snackbar weather event when one has a plague to spread is the point?
BingoBoingo: mundane case of guy and his wife shooting up their workplace
BingoBoingo: Oh 2nd most recent, the san bernadino ISIS derps
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i must confess i don't get the latest qntra. wut ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, the weather in b-a fixed itself, tis very pleasant, the steaks still here, by all means.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 18:41:13; mod6: As shitty as all of this is, I think we're in a unique position now to actually resolve all of these issues that have been plaguing us from the beginning.
mircea_popescu: the joke being of course that any serious designer is exactly a bee-dog.
assbot: Logged on 24-02-2016 04:23:11; mircea_popescu: omfg alf sees the world like a bee-dog : in black and white and all pixelated.
mod6: ya, saw that and was thinking the same
mod6: but would be cool just to meet and get around and discuss these things infront of a blackboard or whatever.
assbot: Logged on 06-03-2016 19:56:34; mod6: now that this all happened, i kinda wish there was c4 this year.
mod6: now that this all happened, i kinda wish there was c4 this year.
asciilifeform: i like that there is more than one implementation
mod6: ok cool, first edition then.
mod6 mind-as-well round out the library
asciilifeform: ok to get the 2012 or earlier (but not 1983)
asciilifeform: mod6: the standard.
assbot: Logged on 24-02-2015 04:28:49; asciilifeform: just got 'ada 95: the language, reference manual, and standard libraries' ansi/iso/iec-8652:1995 in the post
BingoBoingo: So what if it takes 5-10 years to gain mass traction as opposed to the couple hours a hardfork crisis would resolve in
BingoBoingo: Seriously. The initial shock was unnerving, but then again what the fuck else had all the things qntra'd about added up to.
mod6: As shitty as all of this is, I think we're in a unique position now to actually resolve all of these issues that have been plaguing us from the beginning.
BingoBoingo: It seems to look like name for discussing attributes of hypothetical actual Coin
BingoBoingo: Whether next thing be beedog coin or arse wallet coin
shinohai: Enjoyed the Qntra story spin too BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: anyway bbl, there are trees.
asciilifeform: and yes, convention. newton's laws also make fine convention. until they don't.
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 02:35:36; asciilifeform: the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes.
assbot: Logged on 24-01-2014 04:36:33; asciilifeform: eventually people's brains will grow and they will stop thinking of market value as a scalar.
nubbins`: asciilifeform: indeed, you can get all of them and more for 1 btc.
mircea_popescu: money IS. whether it'll ever be what it ought or not - welll, that's what engineers are for.
mircea_popescu: many questions remain, but the discussion has been interesting.
asciilifeform: to be the least bit convincing.
gribble: (search <word>) -- Searches for <word> in the current configuration variables.
asciilifeform: but now you can. all that happens is that the matrices grow by a few bit.
mircea_popescu: try another : every morning when i wake up now, i read the log. this, i like. if i were using your coin, every morning when i woke up, i would conceivably be greeted by a list of notifications : "group X has now split. in five. would you like to name the shards or ignore the shards, for each shard ?"
asciilifeform off to meatspace, unpacking fig trees from their winter tarps, bbl.
asciilifeform: it stands to reason that folks would have some incentive to collapse their coinmatrices to manageable size
asciilifeform: it does not bother me. if i need to create or receive such a thing, i buy moar disk. or tell the other fella 'make smaller files'
mircea_popescu: so you're going to bake in a magic number which is the largest number of groups that may ever exist in anyone's view
mircea_popescu: (notwithstanding all the idiots who "read" the code - it is there, specified. de facto, irrespective of intention, and besides the guy's intentions scarcely either made sense or made it into practice.)
mircea_popescu: and you can not specify the bytesize of this item.
asciilifeform: well, it's no longer 5btc scalar. it is now... [[5 0] [0 0]] or the like.
asciilifeform: and so now we have money for them.
mircea_popescu: i dunno about your or anyone else's experience, but i personally have spent my entire life to date in the company of people whose takes were fundamentally irreconcilable. ever since a wee tyke doing double time between the upper crups exclusive school and the criminal underworld.
asciilifeform: rather than a scalar.
asciilifeform: well, if we're going full-bore, the transaction takes two matrices and yields a third.
mircea_popescu: so why would it require they "agree" ?
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> purely for exploratory reasons - how far are you willing to take the gossipd ? << how about quantum money ?
mircea_popescu: and why would they reconcile ever if they met ? have you seen nude women together before ?
asciilifeform: so when they meet, they reconcile the ledgers. and if one or more of the parties refuses to, they now have to march off into parallel worlds.
mircea_popescu: now the chains are split.
mircea_popescu: because B mined on the basis of the chain that it saw ; and A idem. there's no guarantee these would stay coherent, and so they didn';t.
asciilifeform: i.e. why do their ledgers differ to begin with ?
asciilifeform: well, gotta cut into detail. why, in this universe, does b see the 5 as valid, and a as invalid ?
mircea_popescu: not being a superposition of eigenstates myself, but a resolved one, i can't both credit and not credit the 5btc. would seem i have to choose one.
mircea_popescu: now - person X comes to me with a 5 BTC which he wants to spend on milk. B sees the 5 as valid ; A, as invalid. i know both A and B. does this mean i have to choose ?
mircea_popescu: ok, take the nonsense practically : there's A, as illustrated yesterday, the group of six nude ladies ; there's B, b-a. i hope you folks aren't nude atm ?
asciilifeform: what we have now is an ad-hoc (2), the exhaust heat from which drives (1).
mircea_popescu: so the option is "either create a money that drives a government, or else create a money that drives a crazy" ?
asciilifeform: fortunately the 'pure reason' folks are yet only a subset.
asciilifeform: for the folks for whom it is.
asciilifeform: it is +ev in the same sense as being hikikomori and starving to death is +ev.
asciilifeform: and money, as i stole from another mircea_popescu article, 'is a function of the forum'
asciilifeform: the quantum spiked dildo eases in less painfully when you realize that the interfering electrons etc were ~always~ there under the newtoniana.
mircea_popescu: this notion of money is disjunct enough from the commonly held to be scary.
mircea_popescu: ie, THEY think i paid you 5 btc, but THOSE OTHERS see that same 5 btc going to him. and well.. it's just how it is.
mircea_popescu: the [fundamentally centralzising] question of "tell me the one and only god-given truth as to ownership" dissolves in a cloud of acceptances.
mircea_popescu: purely for exploratory reasons - how far are you willing to take the gossipd ?
asciilifeform: or we can lift from a mircea_popescu article, 'Another aspect is that new blocks are mined by one group (miners) but have to be stored in perpetuity by another group (nodes). This creates a situation where X (users) pay Y (miners) to inconvenience Z (nodes), which is unsustainable not to mention sheer nonsense.'
mircea_popescu: this is what most molds do under environmental stress - which is exactly what the environment was designed to do to them.
mircea_popescu: not so. bitcoin had 3 types of animal, minerS, nodes, owners. notwitstanding the very problematic weakness of nodes, the minerS unicellular molds merged in one major piece of dogvomit.
asciilifeform: anyway the original point stands, bitcoin had no fewer than ~3~ types of animal - miner, node, tx-er. and they were supposed to stay in racul, broasca si o stiuca
mircea_popescu: you're kicking the can. -ev for the player +ev for the group, we're buiolding the soviets omfg fuckme
mircea_popescu: ie, humans have a very lengthy, selected ability to centralize against the possibility of a nice world.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is a 'solution' in the sense that there is no exact pill against it, but is -ev for the player.
asciilifeform: rather than thinking.
mircea_popescu: well you'll have to be a lot more detailed then
mircea_popescu: and i'm telling you, the solution to a broken knee is not to break an elbow.
mircea_popescu: the problem is that margin-driven mining creates centralisation necessarily.
mircea_popescu: so yes, bitcoin does suffer from game theoretical poor design, but this problem specifically can not be resolved by "adding another bug somewhere else, they'll cancel out".
mircea_popescu: this is nonsense. you needn't balance the desire of syphilis to defect from syphilisdom by injecting my with tb ffs.
mircea_popescu: males trying to get together to gangrape individual females ; females getting together trying to create wailer choruses to keep the male group at bay, everything we don't like about society reduces readily to "it's not made up of individuals", ie, poolmined.
asciilifeform: in that there was no built-in incentive for defecting from a miner cartel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my notion was that bitcoin suffered from a ~game-theoretically~ poor design.
mircea_popescu: the chief problem of human society is pool collusion in this view.
mircea_popescu: ipso definition, individual women in any gendered species are in the pool of womanhood ; and respectively males.
mircea_popescu: this is "pools under another name"