mircea_popescu: davout i don't think you take my meaning. the situation that you imagine is, "hey, whatever, summertime and a bunch of us are at the beach". the situation in reality is, "a moroccan clan and some fat frenchies at the beach". guess how likely you are to a) find out the price of dried fruit and b) find out that you aren't finding out the price of dried fruit.
davout: nubbins`: for the tx not to relay at all it has to be 'false' for everyone
asciilifeform: davout: issue is that 'everyone knew' SOLELY for the purpose of rejecting a1...n but NOT for relay to miner!
davout: mircea_popescu: if everyone's actually the same node, broadcasting to one node is actually broadcasting to everyone, and it follows that it should have relayed properly. I guess it can also be the sign of your connections all actually being to the same sybilling node
asciilifeform: much about the turdnet is stochastic, and so this is mega-unsurprise.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, and we for whatever reasons just see the 1 in 100 gunshot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my hypothesis was that it suffices for the enemy to have a pistol that does this, e.g., per every N trigger pulls, and that the number came up.
davout: thinking about it, I interpret the fact that A1 did not (on first attempt) get relayed to my node as indicative of nodes *not* being merely facades for some sort of 'super-node'
nubbins`: the other one said something about "petulant and unwilling to admit error in the face of overwhelming evidence"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by this logic tho, are there also 99 bitcoins we don't know about ? 99 linuxen ? 99 gccs that statically link ?
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from -1 to -1 with note: basic scammer, no accountability
mircea_popescu: but anyway, yes, if you believe 1 in 100, they yes, you don't need cartel, just persistent miner.
nubbins`: this, and many other things!
nubbins`: shoulda been watching the mempool size when you pushed out a 0-fee
nubbins`: the all-seeing eye
mircea_popescu: i had been watching. this, and many other things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what makes you think they haven't been squeezing the trigger for 100 shots
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1425817 <<< the "sybil testing" part is not documented in the qntra piece or did I miss it?
mircea_popescu: "pet miner". if pet miner has 1% of hash, the observed phenomena occur 1% of cases.
mircea_popescu: specifically the "sudden mining of an old 0fee tx" ? how ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the incident with bbet, can be explained without miner cartel.
asciilifeform: but i have to say, it is not supported by the incident described in the article, and so this is giving folks indigestion, fwiw.
davout: dooglus: so in other words: block witholding
nubbins`: "one i'm unwillingto carry in the full detail" lololol.
mircea_popescu: it is an intricate discussion, and one i'm unwillingto carry in the full detail, but on the basis of what i have seen, it is my considered opinion that at the time in discussion, the miner cartel was running a ~half hour block delay thing.
asciilifeform: perhaps the 'telco 241' or what was it.
asciilifeform: trivially: the sybilnet has a pet miner.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how does a transaction that shouldn't even be relayed GET relayed, and then mined, in short order ?
asciilifeform: but it is entirely unclear to me that miners had anything to do with the observables here.
mircea_popescu: it is unclear what the help'd be at the present time, however. i see exactly no signs of any of the observed behaviours discussed in teh qntra piece anymore.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is so far imho the best argument for why it had to be bbet's foot on the mine.
davout: mircea_popescu: i like to check stuff, maybe there's stuff to learn if i find out they somehow were relayed to my nodes at some point
nubbins`: the most plausible scenario i can think of is that, like dooglus concurred, a shit-fee tx took forever and then got relayed
dooglus: davout: curious why you'd say "that's a weird distribution << when mining block N, I have my pick of all the transactions broadcast while block N-1 was the newest block. some of those will have decent fees. transactions broadcast while block N-10 was the newest block that haven't already been mined are probably not very attractive to mine now. so why is block N including so many transactions created 10 blocks ago and so few created 1 block ag
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is obviously always possible. except it'd be bitbet, raqther than mp. i've been otherwise unmolested throughout.
mircea_popescu: its sudden appearance was discussed in these very logs - even for that brief interval before it made it into a block.
davout: ftr i checked my own logs, and what they say is that my node heard about A1 around march 1st
nubbins`: so, no, there's no Nm set of nodes.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the most plausible scenario i can think of is that mircea_popescu's network has been boxed in by sybils.
mircea_popescu: a statement of fact is a statement of fact. it only becomes a proof if used in a reasoning. a fact and a proof are very different items : one's a realia, the other ideal.
nubbins`: i also flatly disbelieve that mp sent A2, A..n to completely different nodes, because it's extremely, extremely relevant and didn't come out until his original argument shit the bed
nubbins`: you must then write a blog post
mircea_popescu: what has the log done to be reduced so!
mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone had anythong intelligent to say that got buried in the spew, feel free to restate. i'm not wading through that pile of idiocy.
nubbins`: because two entities control most of the mining, and it's absolutely retarded for those same entities to not have a similar amount of control over nodes?
davout: asciilifeform: i don't see how one could conclusively assert that A1 has not been relayed by the node one originally broadcast it to
asciilifeform: nubbins`: they are, however, my strong point. and mircea_popescu asked an entirely logical q.
nubbins`: numbers aren't your strong suit, maybe stick to doing the dark andreas antonolololopous schtick, it's what you're good at
asciilifeform: if they aren't relaying a1.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what he was asking is, why would the nodes that he did NOT transmit a1 to, reject a2.
nubbins`: suppose i run two nodes, one a member of Nk and one a member of Nm. As long as my nodes are running proper sanity checks on each other (i.e. passing tx's between them), which obviously they should be because i'm not running SPV nodes, mp's "mathematical" argument falls apart at the seams
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've been lifting the rocks for a while. but i do it with sapper's spade , but as i understand you did it with bbet's foot ?
nubbins`: i guffaw loudly at the continued refusal to discuss 17 btc bitbet fraud
mircea_popescu: which yes, on the sheer strength of the abundance and precision, "dang, this better be a nightmare"
nubbins`: asciilifeform he spent all afternoon "napping" by throwing together some maths and deciding to switch stories
mircea_popescu: that's also in there. different part.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well you also had a hypothesis concerning miners
mircea_popescu: anyway. to my eyes this is specifically and precisely said in the qntra piece, but w/e, more passes never hurt anyone, i guess. except if the passes are beatings or something.
mircea_popescu: the chief problem with trying to communicate things is that there's always going to be a set of idiots / lazy thinkers who want a specific outcome out of the conversation, and then proceed to parasitize it with their half-assed sententious bullshit.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you actually did this experiment, and this was the result, then you just nailed a set of sybils, yes
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu>asciilifeform i seem to recall he failed both tests for continued lordship and was basically not on the list of names to be cleared because he asked not to be. << memory failing you once again
mircea_popescu: and so no, one who things "well there's nodes, so it's a p2p network" is utterly flattering himself. no such thing in bitcoin. there's a supernode, and a bunch of whatevers.
mircea_popescu: minus the magic numbers, but this.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 22:49:27; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose there's nodes N1... Nn advertising themselves on the network. suppose you send txn X to all nodes Nk where k is divisible by 2, which has the properties that a) it would not be broadcast to any further nodes, and b) it would prevent transaction Y from being accepted in the mempool. suppose you verify that nodes Nk where k = 2i do not in fact advertise X. suppose you broadcast Y
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 22:49:27; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose there's nodes N1... Nn advertising themselves on the network. suppose you send txn X to all nodes Nk where k is divisible by 2, which has the properties that a) it would not be broadcast to any further nodes, and b) it would prevent transaction Y from being accepted in the mempool. suppose you verify that nodes Nk where k = 2i do not in fact advertise X. suppose you broadcast Y
assbot: Logged on 10-02-2016 02:24:16; nubbins`: speak now if you believe a lord that has contributed TRB patches, who owns the second-largest s.mg stock warrant, who trades in the only physical collectibles that are priced solely in BTC, who pays the bill for eulora.org, who is the republic's de facto minister of letters awaiting with bated quill the whittling-down of a codebase fit to publish, should be stripped of his title; speak your treason now, th
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i seem to recall he failed both tests for continued lordship and was basically not on the list of names to be cleared because he asked not to be.
nubbins`: no need to defend my character, just note that the attack is ad hominem and not addressing any of the various logical fallacies projected by the attacker
mircea_popescu: =2i+1. suppose you verify that nodes Nm do not advertise Y. is this proof sufficient to you that nodes N1... Nn is a charade, and they are all node N ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose there's nodes N1... Nn advertising themselves on the network. suppose you send txn X to all nodes Nk where k is divisible by 2, which has the properties that a) it would not be broadcast to any further nodes, and b) it would prevent transaction Y from being accepted in the mempool. suppose you verify that nodes Nk where k = 2i do not in fact advertise X. suppose you broadcast Y to nodes Nm where m
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1425015 << you think so. but in reality, you're not actually part of the relay network.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is there anything more than random derp of tenuous association with b-a has a total meltdown when he realises that b-a is not fiat, the republic not a democracy and i don't give a shit about "people themselves" ?
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:45:54; dooglus: if A1 and A2 went to non-overlapping sets of nodes then A2 should have been accepted and mined, right?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1425011 << they should have been. except if the "non overlapping" sets of miners DO in fact overlap, in the sense of being merely meaningless facades of the same one thing, in which case they wouldn't necessarily know that they can be trivially fingerprinted by the symptom of "hey, apparently they know about a txn they shouldn't know about".
mircea_popescu: looking for the low down on argentina ? read it in qntra today, or in the argentinian mass media a week later.
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1877403-stiuso-amenaza-para-cristina-y-desafio-para-macri
nubbins`: thestringpuller homework for ya
nubbins`: instead, we have an incomplete, unsigned, inaccurate statement published on the 7th
nubbins`: The representatives of BitBet solemnly promise and warrant that complete and accurate Revenue and Net Revenue statements for each calendar month will be published by them no later than by the fifth day of the new month.
nubbins`: idgaf if they're published or not, but:
nubbins`: 5th of the month.
nubbins`: better luck next month with the feb+march statement
nubbins`: unfortunately, by the logic of the listing agreement, feb 2016 statement is null and void no matter if kako signs or not
nubbins`: guess it took a couple days to work up the courage to introduce that private expense
nubbins`: according to the listing agreement (3.2 (g)), this can only happen once per year, and it's march 7th
nubbins`: also, FWIW, S.BBET has officially missed the Feb 5th deadline for publishing a (signed) feb 2016 statement.
davout: curious why you'd say "that's a weird distribution - 70 transactions were made when block 400728 was the current block, and only 16 were made at a later point in time" when the majority of the referenced transactions have a 0 locktime
davout: dooglus: any interpretation for the data you posted? i fail to see anything meaningful to conclude from it
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: will let you know, but it seems rather long
assbot: dpaste: 382FKCJ: blocks either side of 400739 show a similar pattern too ... ( http://bit.ly/1U0eX2G )
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>because those who stopped, stopped so that they could scam consumers. << two wrongs make not a right
asciilifeform: nubbins` and pete_dushenski are entirely welcome to sit on opposite ends of the bar and give mean stares or whatnot.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: hey there's no rule proclaiming that everybody has to be friendz.
pete_dushenski: nubbins`: lol is 'piece of shit' a term of endearment on your end of the globe ? i have a hard time keeping track of all the different culture nuances in this vast and expansive country of ours
asciilifeform: because those who stopped, stopped so that they could scam consumers.
nubbins`: fwiw, the "bi" is short for "binary", because -- yep, you guessed it -- 1024 is a tidy 2^10
nubbins` always chalked it up to americans not using the metric system, in which kilo is 1000 by definition
nubbins`: dooglus kibi/mibi/gibi has been the bane of many
dooglus: then there's this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibibyte telling me there are 1000 bytes in a kilobyte and 1024 bytes in a kibibyte...
dooglus: they also think kB is spelled with a capital K. whenever blockchain.info disagrees with another block explorer, it's wrong
pete_dushenski: so bc.info suddenly forgot that there are 1024 bytes in a kb, like the girl who thinks that her 3 months old son is '12 weeks old' ?
dooglus: pete_dushenski: that block is 999962 bytes long, which is 976.5254 * 1024 - so that's the discrepancy
asciilifeform: dumpblock, rather
pete_dushenski: i haven't the patience to compare every listed tx. perhaps someone else has script or program for this
dooglus: right. the majority of txs which do have a height baked in were created 10 blocks before that block
pete_dushenski: in other matters of discrepancy vis-a-vis bitbet, https://bitbet.us/bet/1217/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-before/#c5748 https://blockchain.info/block-index/1087033/000000000000000006ee25df43ce4b44f6ee4f67032da09bba60001c34437017 http://blockr.io/block/info/401585
asciilifeform: nubbins`: yeah but he baked the tx
dooglus: weird distribution of current block heights there
dooglus: then remembered prb's 0.12 release writes the current block height into the locktime of transactions it creates
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 15:47:24; mircea_popescu: it just turned a mild magic number ("get all the headers no less than 2000) into a fucking protocol limit. "only get 2k". this is utter nonsense.
assbot: Limit getheaders to a hard 2000. by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #951 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1U0bTn3 )
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1424706 << this got lost in the noise and i would like to come back to it.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 03:01:31; mircea_popescu: !rate nubbins` -1 more or less shoemaker insistent on derping above the crepidam.
nubbins`: accounting mistakes wrt bitbet divs almost every month? << iirc there was an s.mg that had an error around my stock warrant too
nubbins`: trinque take one on the chin, why don't ya
asciilifeform: recall, i am here for slightly different reason than other folks, i'm not really an 'assets' fella
asciilifeform: jurov: i have nfi, i admit that i do not typically follow the subject
jurov: and we all know discussing what mp should and should not do is in vain, but he's not alone in there. i'm looking forward to see how kakobrekla follows with this
asciilifeform: thus far this is reminiscent of the otp thread.
asciilifeform: at any rate, mircea_popescu is prolly off sitting in the war room recrunching the numberz, and will come back and either show us that we're idiots, or apologize and 'gracious donation to shareholderz.'
punkman: was this even the first time bbet double paid?
nubbins`: danielpbarron as is your perogative; however, in a battle of trust vs facts, i'd rather stick with facts
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: this would, then, have the unpleasant flavour of the car wash folks, who wash you at a red light and then ask for pay.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i must confess that if mircea_popescu was conducting an experiment to demonstrate the brokkenness of bitcoin, under the banner of s.nsa, he would have put it as expense in s.nsa statement.
jurov: asciilifeform: i do check the mempol stats before sending small tx
nubbins`: asciilifeform i think it's clear that the shareholders are happy eating salted shit
asciilifeform: any happier than the bbet ones ?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: how do the shareholders of s.nsa feel about such a thing ?
nubbins`: danielpbarron hahaha now we're thinking outside the box
BingoBoingo may have to make the jump to power tools. Crosscut saw has given arm a beating.
nubbins`: kakobrekla he sat bitbet on it, then broke his own chair too, then billed bitbet for two chairs
nubbins`: back to the analogy drawing board
nubbins`: or, y'know, just pay the chair a reasonable fee
nubbins`: if the chair accepted fees to better ensure my ass stayed sat, yes, i'd examine the chair very carefully when sitting for free.
asciilifeform: and let's say the chair breaks one time, and nubbins` finds out that it was because of something a bunch of subhuman scum did.
nubbins`: so you're blaming the black box?
nubbins`: "the default settings should be good enough, even though an iota of thought would reveal that they're not"
asciilifeform: i hold myself responsible for some of mircea_popescu's rage. and think that it is justified. because the thing ~is~ br0k3n.
nubbins`: ten american cents would have effortlessly done the job
nubbins`: in fact, he pushed out A1 knowing precisely the spaghetti-mess it was being pushed into
nubbins`: hadn't taken a look at the rat's nest?
asciilifeform: the way i'm reading it, he was trying to make a point, that the currency is broken (and it is), and that he refuses to be held to answer for ~it being broken~
nubbins`: which is why it's insane that he didn't shrug off the loss
asciilifeform: you think mircea_popescu actually ~needs~ the 17 for something ?
asciilifeform: why would an unprincipled mp ~not~ anonymously fill in the hole ?
nubbins`: i resent the implication that i haven't been
nubbins`: just think: if bitbet had socked away the 10btc that the random dude said it stole from him, there'd only be a 7 btc fraudulent expense on the books
asciilifeform: somehow i can't picture that 'zero asset' means 'dies if the wind farts on it'
asciilifeform: incidentally, i also have nfi how the 'zero asset' thing works. i.e., what was the plan if somehow bbet had lost x btc through some other misfortune.
asciilifeform: rather than trying to telepath.
asciilifeform: anyway i have nfi, will let mircea_popescu explain whether his chair collapsed, which pipe, if any, he grabbed, what kind of reactor coolant came out, etc.
nubbins`: "their money, my money, whatever"
nubbins`: oh, me too. i'm not sympathetic to children playing at adult games tho
asciilifeform: i am also sympathetic to the argument that the currency chair broke when he sat down on it and wtf.
nubbins`: my guess is fraud; alf's suggestion that B was nipped from another bet is suggesing ponzi
nubbins`: ponzi is the alternative explanation, if B was not mp's funds but was funds from another bet
nubbins`: nothing noble in the act, in and of itself
asciilifeform: i admit that i don't see the ponzi aspect here.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform things of far lesser importance were normally discussed by 'the board'.
nubbins`: 4.3. Should BitBet fail to execute this Agreement, as for instance by but not limited to breaching 3.2.h above, MPEx will notify the named individuals of their breach and may, at its sole discretion, suspend the asset from trading thus activating the liquidation of the asset.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:13:55; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the way it worked, from the beginning, was that he did the site and i did admin and payouts.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424847 << suggests that it was not 'behind back' but the normal operation of bbet
nubbins`: unfortunately, in the case of breach of contract:
jurov: well, we have breach of conract then
asciilifeform: nubbins`: recall, mircea_popescu said something to the effect of that he was putting out a fire.
nubbins`: asciilifeform B was money for another bet payout -- from what will B's winners be paid? C?
jurov: i'm rather curious if the point 3.2d was fullfilled, i.e. kakobrekla agreed with whole crapolade
asciilifeform: there is.
nubbins`: there is, however, a thing in the bbet listing about not putting private expenses on the books.
asciilifeform: because we are not in the soviet air force.
asciilifeform: there is nothing in the bbet listing concerning 'if officer blows up the reactor, he will pay for it out of his lunch money'
asciilifeform: and this is not a mega-surprise, it is quite how the 'separation between the man and the uniform' thing works.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu pulled the reactor control rods out because he had a drink too many, the shareholders, per the spec, have precisely two options - to forgive him, or to sell
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:12:01; mircea_popescu: PeterL when the ceo of a company makes a stupid mistake, the company pays for it. there are exactly no exceptions to this rule, nor will there ever be. morever, even when what the ceo does isn't a stupid mistake, the shareholders still pay for it.
asciilifeform: so i reread the log, and,
nubbins`: rubes wouldn't normally wager 7 btc to earn 0.4, but if you hold the keys, it's less of a gamble
nubbins`: nah, although i think it's fairly boilerplate that if there's x to be made by betting y on a late bet, it happens
PeterL: anybody want to guess as to whether one of the winning bets on the JebBush bet was owned by mircea_popescu? who got the extra 7btc payment?
nubbins`: why the fuck would you use such a site?
nubbins`: seriously: outstanding bets that are in the system RIGHT NOW will be heading to mp's pocket later, to pay him back for his personal loss
nubbins`: kakobrekla do you think you could make the "PAYOUTS CANCELLED FOREVER" text a bit smaller? it's taking over the whole page
nubbins`: just as long as we're all on the same page here that the 17 btc is fraudulent and mp is refusing to admit his fraud, i don't really have anything else to add, aside from shredding the ridiculous rebuttals put forth so far
nubbins`: asciilifeform thanks, it's refreshing to learn that at least one other person present is able to obtain information from words that have not been packaged up into a "blog post"
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Are you familiar with the Dark Knight Returns?
asciilifeform: anyway nubbins` i srsly have nfi why the 17 was put in as bitbet expense, ask mircea_popescu, i'm not his mother.
nubbins`: yours didn't have a $7,000 private spending spree on the books
nubbins`: and if that statement doesn't cover march AND february, then s.bbet has failed reporting requirements as per mpex regs
asciilifeform: nubbins`: idk, if this carries on, i might have to take up his offer and visit in person (and perhaps disappear into whatever gulag they put the real mircea_popescu in !1111)
nubbins`: wanna give him a month? next bitbet statement should be out by then
nubbins`: bitbet is a scam site if this stands, unequivocally. i dare you to declare otherwise, and if you so choose, please PGP sign it for us all
nubbins`: put his job on the line and see if he worries
asciilifeform: he had that muscle removed in the war.
nubbins`: you're the one saying he can't just say oops
assbot: Logged on 10-02-2016 17:08:22; mircea_popescu: alowing the possibility that this scam is actually worth taking seriously costs the people who follow what i say whatever it may cost them.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: recall the quantum computer thread ?
asciilifeform: they ~are~.
nubbins`: because the gold crowns are really heavy?
nubbins`: but when the shit turns sour and starts liquefying and spreading around, well, it'd be remiss of me to not try to contain it
nubbins`: of course, one can converse with pieces of shit just fine, and even occasionally work together on common goals
asciilifeform: i don't much care for them, myself.
asciilifeform: afaik pete_dushenski is this canadian fella who likes to race cars, and also occasionally reads the logz and writes summaries, in something like stalin's radio caster (levitan) voice.
nubbins`: fwiw, i also think mp is a piece of shit, but it was easy enough to idle in here and fleece some money out of him now and again. that time's obviously passed since all of his ventures are either spinning wheels or outright fraud shops
asciilifeform: nubbins`: why piece of shit? i think he's a snore, and he - likely thinks i am a snore. but why the mega-rage, l0l
asciilifeform: nubbins`: fwiw pete_dushenski and i are not huge fans of one another.
asciilifeform: but it does not move the car.
asciilifeform: yes, it goes with the engine.
asciilifeform: it is like the vroom of a racing engine
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i dun think he needs the parroting for anything
nubbins`: asciilifeform i'll venture a guess that it's the same way mp trains derps to stick around and parrot the party line
PeterL: figure out which way they are running, jump in front and say "this way, boys!"?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: when you were a boy, didja ever lead a band of other boys to raise hell ?
trinque: I don't get these shots at mod6; he wrote up a fine guide to building a gentoo...
nubbins`: yep. and a quick "you got it buddy" to mod6 and "you're really good at typing things up, you're wasting your talents at the loading bay" to dpb and you've got two more sets of undies smelling like mp's dick