phf: humanoidity: way things stood before bankruptcy, 17btc is what the shareholders would have had to eat for the next n months before getting profits again
jurov: humanoidity: neither
humanoidity: Is the 17 BTC the operational for this month, or is it the cash balance for the whole thing ?
jurov: in any case, thanks for the analysis. you're welcome to put it together as qntra post-mortem, and hopefully get more than $25
phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
jurov: and this $25 goes to whom? all owners together?
jurov: phf so you think it can go on this way, like, another 3 years?
BingoBoingo: humanoidity: At this point everyone really just has to go through the whole thing and excercise summarizing it for themselves
phf: jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )
jurov: humanoidity: have you seen http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/?
humanoidity: would anyone be kind enough to point to a summary of the concerns with bitbet.us ?
phf: http://glyf.org/tmp/bbet.png, there's an insignificant downward trend, but payouts are consistent despite bitcoin fluctuations
asciilifeform: phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.
phf: so zero assets is obviously an oversight, stakeholders were riding that one comfortably until the first snafu
asciilifeform: the 'everyone else' who 'will ignore'
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"
asciilifeform: this bothered me in 2013 ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1108 ) but does not bother me today, largely because my giving-a-shit muscle wore out.
asciilifeform: but rather consists of titanic numbers moving on mpex.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432596 <<< and how'd that work? "let's mine these high-s fee-paying txn, and subsequently get ignored by everyone else?"
asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.
asciilifeform: but more to earth, what i meant was the set of 'high-powered types' he hangs out with when he is not, in his own words, 'tending the daycare'
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
jurov: Rest assured he keeps his doings tight, no idea about the girls.
asciilifeform: though i admit that i always thought meta-assets consisted wholly (other than mp) of pretty gurlz
asciilifeform: but i will point out, i see this entire story (the bbet meltdown) though 'shoemaker' eyes, and i never had any idea, whether jurov and kako were part of mircea_popescu's actual inner circle, i.e. folks who actually move serious coin around, privy to how mpb works, physically met his intelligence agents, etc. or not.
asciilifeform: who the ~real~ lordz trade with
jurov: but otherwise, that's open question for me, too.
asciilifeform: so who then extracted ?
jurov: alternatively, there is something but bitbet failed to extract
asciilifeform: and from the overall ill health of bbet
asciilifeform: jurov: very clearly i do not know it for certain, but inferring from the bbet event.
phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.
asciilifeform: because we're all, you see, lordz, and these don't stoop to ever actually paying for anything, they promise one another kokus of rice per year from their serfs if it must come down to it.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << this is one of those 3rd rails. there is ~no money actually circulating in the tmsr castle walls.
asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.
jurov: but that boils down exactly to it -- when the new owner goes to assing more value to reddit crowds than b-a wot
asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: And that is the problem. Selling to nobies may be the right move to recover stakeholder value, but makes post-sale venture unattractive.
jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
asciilifeform: but if you stick solely to can-be-valueds, you end up selling pies in the street.
BingoBoingo: Who knows, maybe after reciever cuts it up Betmoose would be willing to buy parts and carry it as the sort of reddit betting thing they've been somehow floating for a while. I don't know if I would bet there, but seems like possible buyer for domain/software.
asciilifeform: jurov: this is one of the caveats of the business-cum-guerilla-warfare-battalion animal
jurov: i did want bbet restarted, but since today i realized the "can't be valued" part, this is not feasible
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.
asciilifeform: for mircea_popescu to admit that he elbowed a button and crashed the tank ?
jurov: phf, maybe if you apply for the receiver and do it ;)
jurov: phf also judge will prevent the discussion how?
phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?
phf: jurov: there's no "centrally"
phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on
phf: jurov: that second question is a lot more relevant to the issue then a lot of things that's been said so far
jurov: phf but how can the judge decide without precedent? was the problem of appropriate expenses for zerofee corporations put into law or any such test?
phf: jurov: 17 btc issue is possibly covered by agreement, possibly not, requires investigation. question of who was paying for server is irrelevant to the ~issue~, not even mentioned anywhere in corporate paperwork, and also produced zero issues so far that were publicly discussed
asciilifeform: so either trinque has to accept that v is demonstrably worthless, or to buy into mircea_popescu's 'non-quantifiable' category, or the like.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
phf: jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question
asciilifeform: trinque: the actual market value of my prospecting is, empirically, ~0.
trinque: sounds rather like prospecting; you may find nothing, may find something immensely valuable
phf: jurov: that's a pointless rim shot, that is representative of the level of discourse so far.
asciilifeform: but then you also do not get another thing of similar interest by buying x hours of asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: trinque: and it is not impossible to buy my time, just that it is not ~practical~ for anyone i consider worthwhile. because it is sold only in very large parcels, and is not cheap. but this is beside the point.
trinque: but shout some more about the infinite value of yourself
phf: the logs, some people had a conversation about it, that is all.
phf: there's an utter lack of compartmentalization going on here. the way bitbet is structured is explicit in the contract. only aspect of the operation that's under consideration is "recieve bets, take percentage, pay out", because that's all that shareholders are party to. everything else is between kako and mp and that aspect worked for them. at no point was this arrangement publicly ~questioned~ by any party involved. i spelled it out in
asciilifeform: then see again.
asciilifeform: trinque: that was pointedly NOT the subject
trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically
asciilifeform: just like it is meaningless to discuss the weight of a planet
asciilifeform: which is the point
asciilifeform: jurov: but neither was a work-for-hire cash'n'carry thing
jurov: you see 'v' is exactly the one-time thing. time spent by resolving bets, managing the wallet and such is much easier to quantify
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2015 18:04:11; asciilifeform: 'All of this "code sharing" is an economic surplus phenomenon. It works only when none of the people involved in it are in any form of need. As soon as the need arises, a lot of people discover that it has cost them real money to work for the community and they reap very little benefit from it, because they are sharing value-less services and getting value out of something that people take for grant
jurov: but the maintenance on ongoing basis, needs a prolly a better agreement
jurov: yes, i understand it too. i only don't understand the "can't be valued" part.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:21:42; mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:34:02; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of
asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?
jurov: and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner
asciilifeform: the bbet divorce, as i understand, stopped quite deliberately short of this
asciilifeform: phf: they never quite got to this point
phf: what? the discussion was started by me, to clarify my own understanding, at no point did either side threw expenses at each other. are we even reading same log?
asciilifeform: jurov: the discussion reminds me of those divorces where the husband/wife end up throwing post-facto 'expenses' at each other for who took out the trash etc
jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin
assbot: Slovak parliamentary election, 2016 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSDaEI )
assbot: The Election to the National Council of the Slovak Republic 2016 - Final Results ... ( http://bit.ly/1QSD2F5 )
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima go indulge in sins of the flesh. bbl.
phf: ftr i didn't raise that as a question, i was clarifying how things are for myself and others.
mircea_popescu: it's neither becoming of your other talents nor any kind of service to the republic.
mircea_popescu: stop adding indiscipline to the fucking pile.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your offer to pay what the thing costs is going to cost us A FUCKING FORTUNE down the road. you understand this ?
assbot: Logged on 12-03-2016 03:45:55; mircea_popescu: there's a graph, it doesn't touch 1bn.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 03:18:27; mircea_popescu: in more practical news - jurov here's one for you. https://bitbet.us/bet/1247/parties-smer-sd-and-sns-to-win-supermajority-in/ is to be resolved. problem is the res source gives vote % and not a word re seats, and the bet is re seats.
asciilifeform: now, i cannot pay what these fine massages from mircea_popescu costs. but if he were not fond of giving them for free, i would have to forgo the massages.
mircea_popescu: "it was in the red whatever asciilifeform would take to babysit 4 years of bitbet and resolve 1.2k bets."
mircea_popescu: solrodar> they chose not to charge it to the company, therefore it didn't count << this is correct. but he's welcome to consider counterfactuals also. just - shouldn't expect me to present factuals for counterfactuals, should write his own story himself!
kakobrekla: anyway, you cant really make the horse drink water
mircea_popescu: or in more at-home terms, what exactly am i going to put phuctor into the s.nsa books as ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..? << i dunno man, how much for a night with my slave of your choice ? for me she'll do it for free, you she will not even consider. and this speaks to phf's and other's q as to why assets weren't on the books since they can be trivially enumerated : yes they can be ; but they can't be VALUED. what's the accounting value of bitbet codebase ?
asciilifeform: so that wrath can fall on the correct heads.
asciilifeform: it is not a replacement for working bitcoin. but a pill to wake folks up to the fact of the broken one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins. << yeah, and guess why.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is horrible ! but was the pill suggested in the trilema bbet article.
asciilifeform: (and not only mircea_popescu , but i think many folks swallowed them in one pill)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it melded into one in your head with the DER encoding thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial << wasn't that the other one ?
asciilifeform: but i will note that the story ends up having some of the unpleasant flavour of the usg secret court trials with secret evidence, resultingly.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations. << the problem here is that complete transparency can not be achieved for practical reasons. if it could have been, have no doubt i would have preferred to this "under my seal" report avenue.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: my current understanding, based not only on this incident but others, is that he has pretty good (world class?) humint, but atrocious sigint
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1MiRvWO )
kakobrekla: PeterL re the solution i proposed shortly after the disaster, see footnote for explanation http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#footnote_3_65290
phf: PeterL: right, banks have a kind of wot when they deal with each other, quantified as collateral against credit exposure
asciilifeform: certainly i lack the lsd to process the sheer number of my-intel-told-me-so-and-you-will-take-it-on-faith-because-dirigible-and-fuckyou
PeterL: Or it can be viewed in terms of WoT, random guy off the street has no trust from bitbet that he won't doublespend, bitbet has been holding the coins and thus has implicit trust from guy that he will get paid eventually
kakobrekla: even further, when chinese miners were asked about blocksize it was "we dunno, it should be up to core devs, they know what is best"
assbot: Logged on 03-07-2015 21:25:49; kakobrekla: but 'miners' are zombies, will eat whatever comes their way and cant count on them thinking about anything
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:09:28; asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432588 -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-07-2015#1185942 and further: core devs made the change in 'prb', miners ate it without thinking twice for the benefits visible on the surface. secondly, block reward is too high for / tx fees too low to expect any heavy optimizations for maximizing fees beyond most simplistic or default
phf: PeterL: i think counterparty problem is asymmetrical. that's your collateral is higher then BoA's collateral when you establish partnership
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432495 << just how deeply in the red ~was~ bbet, if we consider this ..?
PeterL: but would bitbet also extend such to their customers? they seem to be pretty firm about if it is not in the block before bet resolves it becomes a donation to shareholders
PeterL: and then payment was not late just because it was a long time getting into block
PeterL: although, I gues accounting-wise you could say you were paid the day the transaction was created, rather than the day it goes into block
asciilifeform: this is the historic norm, when there was no blockchain, only stone knives and bearskins.
PeterL: I still don't see the need for any malisciousness, just somebody holding it in some sort of "side mempool"
asciilifeform: PeterL: well the contention is that it was fired maliciously
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu described the high-S thing as noncontroversial, but for some reason it did not alarm him that miners could agree on something which theoretically leads to dropping PERFECTLY VALID TX on the floor ?!
PeterL: the fact that 0-fee txn eventually got mined shows that mp is not completely isolated from miners by prb?
asciilifeform: there is not, reliably, such a thing.
asciilifeform: game-theoretically.
PeterL: aha, so the high-S thing only proves the miners don't like it, you would need to find something the miners allow but prb does not
asciilifeform: it ought not to have been possible for the miners to agree on this.
asciilifeform: the high-S thing was the most serious, imho, warning bell that there ~is~ such a thing as miner collusion
asciilifeform: (note, the protocol PERMITS a block with high-S tx. hence my suggestion to build a high-S-only pool.)
asciilifeform: PeterL: poor example, the extant miners somehow agreed not to mine high-S
PeterL: I guess he could specifically design a transaction which is not passed by prb, and see if it gets into blocks, which I think the high-S thing was an example?
asciilifeform: perhaps this is a failure of my puny brain, but i am at a loss as to what assurance mircea_popescu could possibly have had, and from whom, that there is not a prb vermin between mpb-net and the miner.
asciilifeform: i, for instance, will not deal with han chinese unless the deal is strictly cash&carry basis and involves no ongoing trust arrangement.
asciilifeform: and that whichever meatspace folk with whom he had peering arrangements, a) bamboozled him and/or b) were in turn bamboozled by their peers.
asciilifeform: the 'lighter weight', parsimonious hypothesis is that mpb-net was bamboozled by sybils. rather than miners.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is not actually my business how mircea_popescu transmits his tx, but since he chose to present the bbet matter in the tmsr public forum, rather than limiting it to folks 'whose business it is', i will say, that the mpb (client and network both) is a serious ?????? in the story. i have nfi how it works, and imho it actually matters for making sense of the observations.
mats: also not a big fan of handling other people's money
mircea_popescu: mats the question under audit's not that ; not that it would prevent you from doing whatever.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:40:42; mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?
mats: http://log.b-a.link/?date=14-03-2016#1432527 << as i've been reading it, the 17btc is still in dispute? i don't want to be in the position of resolving this, but i'd be happy to audit whatever coins still reside in s.bbet public (or not) addresses and publish results
BingoBoingo: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432438 << Generally how the bet goes. blood taken over contest being a farce generally doesn't make it to bettors.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if i didn't think so, the qntra piece would have read "fuck vc sybils already".
phf: well then
asciilifeform: but if mircea_popescu signed a statement that he transmits directly to the miners, and has no doubt that this is so, because he ran the cable himself, i will believe...
mircea_popescu: phf whatever people do with their private funds is their problem, the contract still says the shareholders get it.
phf: mircea_popescu: not from what you just said about you and kako paying out of the pocket
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the bbet event suggested that there was at least one layer of prb between mircea_popescu and the miners.
PeterL: phf, to me the listing seems to say during liquidation shareholders get an even share?
phf: PeterL: oh from ~sale~ you mean. i don't think that shareholders have any claim to sale. since it's a zero asset corporation, the only movable part is "bets come in, percentage collected, payment sent out". "assets" is the percentage that's collected at the end of month, and immediately distributed to shareholders. what is being sold is domain/codebase and a negotiation rights with mp for hosting. that was never funded by shareholders
asciilifeform: sybils putting transactions in their pocket and lying about the contents of their mempool, works.
asciilifeform: at no point did i state a belief in 'imperceptible miners', just observing that the miner collusion is not a necessary hypothesis re the bbet event.
mircea_popescu: this model of (perceptible relay) + (imperceptible miners) is nonsense of the ilk of meta-nsa-in-the-sky.
asciilifeform: to which the miners connect. and likewise everyone else.
asciilifeform: there is a network, consisting, apparently, mostly of sybil.
mircea_popescu: if not, then in what way ?
mircea_popescu: do they not exactly read "i, asciilifeform, hereby do declare there's no relay network other than the miner's own" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is synthesis from earlier threads where you stated that yes, there are sybils, but your octopus of mpb connecting to various trusted folks, incl. over crypted links, is not sybilable
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you not say the words "mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz" ?
asciilifeform: the 'is not stable' thing is pure handwaving.
asciilifeform: well if mircea_popescu demonstrated the logic whereby miner collusion is a necessary hypothesis, vs sybils alone, i must have slept through it ?
phf: so whatever %1's been collected so far is divided between mp,kako,shareholders with receiver making a call there, pay outs go to original addresses, assets are auctioned and the auction proceeds are split between mp,kako with receiver making call there
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 18:39:24; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432524 << i STILL do not see the miners thing as a necessary hypothesis.
mircea_popescu: if more people had at any point throughout the intervening tax seasons stopped and thought "hey, i made whatever, 100k dollars this year, of which i'm signing off 60k to usg - might as well send tmsr the 0.1% it charges in tax!" then perhaps the foundation would have enough money and i could just donate it there as an endpoint.
mircea_popescu: well, i'm not entirely sure it can charge 1% if it doesn't resolve the bets.
mircea_popescu: why is that, if the question's not too presumptuous ?
mats: jurov, i'm happy to do the audit but not act as receiver
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and possibly he is now cured of it. <<< amusingly - quite on the contrary! ~you~ had that notion, and appeared to stick to it even in the face of my pointing out that this arrangement is not stable, and only the miners could possibily be running the show.
mircea_popescu: iirc originally a chunk was sold, then sometime early last year or perhaps late 2014 the remainder of the shares were distributed to the principals. iirc i didn't sell much, mostly now and again to try and temper overexcited price action. should be something like .5 to maybe 3mn shares outstanding depending how much kako himself sold.
solrodar: speaking of proceeds, how much of the bitbet IPO was ever completed?
mircea_popescu: but hey, if that's above what can be had, whatever, i'll build a shrine to allah / brothel / whatever out of the proceeds and that's that.
mircea_popescu: phf in general it'd be helpful if other avenues were found from this sort of situation. in any case it'd be good for bitcoin.
phf: i'm trying to compartmentalize where there's none, ultimately the whole thing is a counterparty problem, and only recourse is loss&negrate
mircea_popescu: it's a disease of the mind that i don't really think can be cured, just quarantined.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> and don't need a 'speaker for.' <<< the problem with the democrat's mind is that he's been ruined by low effort "success" and so will forever be seeking this fantasy of a "silent electorate" to propel him through a life without labour.
mircea_popescu: phf there's no guarantee offered or even contemplated that bitcoin is not fungible.
phf: solrodar: and to finish the thought, you "want" audit to ensure that bitbet holds all the bitcoin for open debts, rather then, say, having it all transfered into kako's or mp's coffers. that's the "reserve" although of course a joking misnomer.
mircea_popescu: that was also unpredictable bla bla. and i'm sure the shareholders would very much like management to insulate them from it. if only.
assbot: Time for Europe to repeal the US-backed AML crap. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1J3esew )
mircea_popescu: now, one could say "the same is true of fiat banking", and BY AND LARGE THEY WOULD BE RIGHT. see for instance
mircea_popescu: but currently, the actual bitcoin network fee doesn't even ammount to 1% of the actual cost of interacting with this sprawling pile of shit.
mircea_popescu: there's of course also the cost of handling bitcoin payments, which is very VERY far from "free", irrespective what the "big blocks" derps think.
phf: so a clarification to what i said above, it's kakobrekla and mircea_popescu together paying for all aspects of bitbet operation out of pocket
mircea_popescu: but upon consideration, i did put the amt for the server into the costs, it really being a pittance
mircea_popescu: so he rather cavallierly offered to continue eating the server while i continue eating the admin.
mircea_popescu: the latter part come at an end at some point last year, when he asked to have it included in the cost structure. i pointed out to him then that if i correspondingly add my expenses in, we might as well close it.
mircea_popescu: phf well no, kakobrekla wrote and maintained the code and for a while covered the server costs. the former part is no trivial matter, i will point out.
mircea_popescu: the "reserves" thing was mostly a joke. at the time it so happened as part of the mysterious functioning of the mp payment network that inputs originally sent to bitbet were not spent.
phf: seems to be that most? every? aspect of bitbet operation was funded out of mp's pocket, so it's zero asset because it literally doesn't own any of the parts required for its operation. bitbet as an entity existed purely as a "bets come in, house takes percentage, payments come out" operation.
solrodar: but were there ever any reserves, or was that audit a misunderstanding?
mircea_popescu: dunno, and the people involved had not the foresight to leave us detailed records of how that logic went.
solrodar: well obviously the whole 0-asset thing was always an accounting fiction
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> nubbins`: or was the idea << or possibly the system that worked well for s.dice was simply carried forward, with not enough thought given to the matter. "hey, it's also gambling".
phf: solrodar: nothing need have happened to warrant that question. reserve is there to pay out what was payed in. can't pay for server from reserve. ascii's question is not pointed, he's never seen bitbet's paperwork and is surprised that a business can run without own assets.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:37:40; asciilifeform: nubbins`: the one mega-mystery in my mind is still the 0asset thing.
solrodar: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432450 << what happened to the "reserve" of http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-04-2014#608433 ?
asciilifeform: the number is simply to ensure that folks connecting at random, in public toilets, end up with a thick layer of sybil between them and the statistically probable genuine non-gangrenous flesh somewhere far away.
asciilifeform: sybil attacks work not because there are many sybils, but because they ~act in concert~
asciilifeform: but what there also was, was mircea_popescu having a notion that he knows how to avoid connecting through them to the minerz
asciilifeform: there were thousands of sybils, note, for quite some time.
asciilifeform: turns out, right there.
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu wondered where the sybils.
asciilifeform: i must agree with phf. and i think this is how nubbins` ended up killfiled by mircea_popescu, for the 'i speak for trees, for the trees have no tongues' thing.
phf: nubbins`: that's not the meaning of the paragraph. not "what" you did, but "how" is the focus., and the sentence you're pointing at is an exposition that frames my perspective, in a form similar to "some of us here are shoemakers and we blah blah blah". whatever blah blah blah is, it's not usually about how shoemakers can not shoemake anymore, but is more like "i speak for shoemakers"
asciilifeform: nubbins`: or was the idea that it ~ought to be~ successful enough to be able to cover any loss with simply the profit from any particular month ?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: was it really meant to live only until the first disaster, however small? e.g., stolen server ?
mircea_popescu: and in other fema camp news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1cg3b5ECz1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: it's just this unpleasant "bitbet bets once resolve enact history". i dislike the notion of cementing google's transpared ploy into my blockchain. i'm sure it's all me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but thus far i don't see how the bet is difficult to resolve. the presumption is that the game was legit, no? barring actual proof of shenanigans ?
thestringpuller: I'll try it from another location later. Guess no qntra at work.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller i see it.
mircea_popescu: going through a game of go is rare among endeavours in that i can't be doing other things.
mircea_popescu: nah i looked (briefly) through the first three
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did you read the 4th game ?
mircea_popescu: he'll get enough from "the community", i'm sure.