ben_vulpes: "why is the app broken?"
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 01:45:38; mircea_popescu: (perhaps this is obivous to me only for some god-forsaken reason, but the next step after the view on the bitcoin protocol that it permits miners to arbitrarily reject txn and the collusion of miners is - you gotta get a license to bitcoinate. why hardfork to increase their revenue, even.)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433143 << this ~will~ come, which is reason no. 1,001 why there can be ~no~ compromise with the enemy.
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 01:34:13; mircea_popescu: which is how and why chetty's passing bumped her trust in my eyes to 10 : not because she's "very good" now, but because she lacks any further capacity to surprise anyone. at least so goes the logic.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433133 << it is not entirely impossible for the dead to surprise the living. ask an archaeologist.
asciilifeform: gotta also have the particular mental demon on your back.
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 01:09:15; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432755 << how did that go, "yes half hour of my time and a lifetime of learning the trade" or somesuch.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433108 << inventin' is this thing where lifetime-of-trade is usually not enough either
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 01:03:18; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432744 << this is a complicated proposition. the traditional avenue of the dedicated tramp is to join a group, liberally fuck anyone but the alpha of that group, insist that the alpha marry her. this presses a very strict choice on the alpha that's not trivially resolved - if he kills her everyone else loses a fuckdoll ; if he marries her he's fucked, n
thestringpuller: except the most resilient who set up the "web environment" on the LAN and then do dev that way.
asciilifeform: already i work in a shop where the modem hiccups and 80% work - stops...
asciilifeform: even the now pestilentially-common www-based spreadshit/wordprocessor/etc thing is recent.
asciilifeform: nor had anyone the bandwidth
jurov: then why central planners allowed win 3.x to happen? everyone was supposed to run X11 over dialup!
asciilifeform: from the pov of the 1970s central planner lizards, the turn from 'pay per cpu cycle' timesharing phyootoore to personal comp was a mistake
asciilifeform: consumer pc will contain the minimal necessary horsepower.
asciilifeform: the answer is, it is to move folks to 'cloud' crapolade.
asciilifeform: incidentally, it may not be obvious to the alert reader why the power downclocking thing is pertinent
asciilifeform: where you get ~hour/day to power up the tv.
asciilifeform: e.g., cpu that clocks down to DC as the battery runs down, or the like, will be a first step
asciilifeform: my brother's schooling involved a soviet pdp clone, that worked 'on good days'
asciilifeform: but next step is to whittle away the earth, yes.
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 13:22:14; mircea_popescu: you ARE willing to pay 50% of the money for a 72% item, and so there it is.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433374 << naturally, not ~all~ software, and definitely not all hardware, given as there still has to be earth for all the swamp to stand on
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 13:22:03; mircea_popescu: in the "i bet you don't understand what the bayesian approach to spam filtering turned into pretend-ai after its failure to filter spam" means for your country : the next step is for most all the jobs that are still left to be replaced by this kind of ai - it's cheaper. so you go to the hair salon and you get a hairdo - 80% of the time. hey, accidents happen, here's a free coupon for another one. and
asciilifeform: but now have to throw it from the cockpit entirely ??!!
asciilifeform: it is not enough to tear off the joystick,
PeterL: nubbins` I was under the impression that bitbet shares get either a part of the sale of assets or 0.00001, whichever is higher, are you saying they get both?
mircea_popescu: obviously, you won't be having any money at all to pay for anything at all on the grounds of not being born rich and there not being any further jobs at all; but whatevs, the consumer has got what it came to expect.
mircea_popescu: bsite made ? no problem. 72% of the time it even works!
mircea_popescu: in the "i bet you don't understand what the bayesian approach to spam filtering turned into pretend-ai after its failure to filter spam" means for your country : the next step is for most all the jobs that are still left to be replaced by this kind of ai - it's cheaper. so you go to the hair salon and you get a hairdo - 80% of the time. hey, accidents happen, here's a free coupon for another one. and yes, you want a we
cazalla: thestringpuller, you're up early?
cazalla: thestringpuller, it's only 11:30pm here
nubbins`: http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=elbow*+button+from%3Aasciilifeform << fwiw i think this is an inappropriate analogy to what happened, and unfairly minimizes the amount of agency involved.
nubbins`: i think he got mad because a bunch of poor renters who don't own computers weren't able to find the time to get on irc, find #b-a, take a photograph of themselves holding a sign, set up a btc wallet, &c &c &c &c &c
nubbins`: yes, each one has a voucher for 0.1 btc, at mp's direction. he later rescinded the offer
cazalla: were they not meant to be distrubted by the20year along with btc vouchers or something from memory?
nubbins`: TECSHARE on the forums bought something like 10 of them too, and he fucking hates me, so he might sell you one
cazalla: that original one would've been nice to frame and hang on the wall in this room in hindsight
nubbins`: sold 8 so far, which should pay for the entire run of 100 plus a couple of prime rib roasts
nubbins`: cazalla FWIW i'm selling another run of posters right now, and i bumped up the price by about 50%
cazalla: imma suggest it might raise the value given some may have been now destroyed, so fewer copies remain out there
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 03:21:23; mircea_popescu: hanbot the problem with your take on what's reasonable is that the other reasonable view is to simply say that everything's fine, nothing's wrong and there isn't nor could ever be any cause for expenditure, alarm or ultimately death. in principle this is a view that can not be dislodged, every living thing's expectation to live forever in a functional world is, misguided or not, nevertheless part and
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433228 <<< the problem with your take on what's reasonable is that mp doesn't like it. full stop.
nubbins`: nubs selling btc posters on the forums is a profitable, legit btc business by this definition.
mircea_popescu: in other news - something that appears as a legitimate outfit from rochester, new york ( thepremierpartners.com ) has apparently managed to lose control over its [email] servers, because they're now sending run of the mill "due bill.doc" spam but from http://dpaste.com/2MV15W2 it seems to be actually sent by them.
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 02:35:50; mircea_popescu: ironcally, bitbet is not merely "a sure thing" - it's the only actually profitable, legit bitcoin business to date. THE ONLY.
mircea_popescu: assbot> Fire The Anti-American Hate Narrative Of The Anakbayan << wait, wait, the anti-gaddafi hate narrative of the usg is not a "hate narrative" ?
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:39:26; asciilifeform: i must agree with phf. and i think this is how nubbins` ended up killfiled by mircea_popescu, for the 'i speak for trees, for the trees have no tongues' thing.
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432455 <<< i spoke for the people who didn't like financial impropriety to take place here, and indeed, i was the only one with a tongue.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:40:41; PeterL: mircea_popescu what about the part of the listing that says shares will be paid out a minimum of 0.00001 ? If selling the domain+code does not cover the 17btc shortfall and this minimum, are you and kakobrekla expected to pay this out of pocket?
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432318 <<< PeterL it is 100% improper for the 0.00001 btc per share to come out of the auction/sale. the listing agreement specifically says that mp and kako are personally responsible for that disbursement.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:32; phf: i think this question is receiving far less attention then the alleged miner collusion. i would've liked to see it approached through a judge (perhaps moon is a harsh mistress style "would you be our judge?"), a carefully constructed paper, an investigation, rather than bickering in logs. i think the question is also separate from receivership and is about ensuring that the rest of tmsr maintain a shared vision
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:30; phf: nubbins`: the core of the issue (the way i understand it) is whether or not mp can use personal funds to pay out bets, and whether he can later ask for those funds back from shareholders. that seems to contradict the contract, so the accusation goes, he's in breach of contract. seems simple enough.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:28; phf: into a controversial protocol behavior, mp called it "miners are conspiring against bitbet". you can personally call mp stupid for that, but there's no "crime" there.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:27; phf: nubbins`: i think it's a pointless to discuss (and takes away from the core of the issue) whether or not miners are conspiring against bitbet. ascii's been known to say that lizard hitler personally disconnected his node, nobody cared to pipe in then, because it's an established local way of talking and thinking (не веришь прими за сказку). miners are a cartel, they can collectively decide
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432301 << i also didn't think it was a worthwhile conversation to have, but i wasn't about to just watch mp make the ludicrous claim that bitcoin has been forked by a chinese mining cabal, ostensibly with the intention of tranferring all the suckers in this chan over to MPCoin, just because his 0-fee tx got bogged down.
nubbins`: phf: "solicited a judge from the wot" is meaningless, unless you know something i don't.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:33:26; phf: nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach tha
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432299 << i made my accusations formal and they were ignored
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 17:38:00; asciilifeform: nubbins`: was it really meant to live only until the first disaster, however small? e.g., stolen server ?
nubbins`: on its own, separate from these three things, great website, great idea. prolly would be thriving.
nubbins`: the three major problems that beset bitbet were (a) mp was involved with it, (b) it had zero room for contingencies or unexpected expenses and (c) train-wreck PR
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433151 << maybe they were afraid their deposit wouldn't confirm until after betting closed ;p
nubbins`: <+hanbot>http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432955 << not to get ahead of myself with you guys <<< there's two firsts, hanbot couching words and hanbot being rational
assbot: Fire – The Anti-American Hate Narrative Of The Anakbayan. | Philippine Fail Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1S1jrmk )
BingoBoingo: chinese playing color revolution game or clintons? http://www.philippinefailblog.com/fire-the-anti-american-hate-narrative-of-the-anakbayan/
punkman: /me does the vexual
ben_vulpes: the 'umble shoemaker, dedicated to sitting on his ass and never doing anything, will starve in this town until he turns to making fashionable shoes with heels and lace instead of the sturdy things in which men tromp through mud.
ben_vulpes: anyways phf, yes, alphabet corp friends and acquaintances are all having a grand party with the low cost of living.
ben_vulpes: more looking to the future
mircea_popescu: ("but hey mp, you should have moved bitbet to this or something!" "yes yes, aren't you a great visionary, man from the future.")
assbot: Accounting for the nonzero asset corporation. The MPEx standard. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UuNpRO )
mircea_popescu: lettuce spell it out then. http://trilema.com/2013/accounting-for-the-nonzero-asset-corporation-the-mpex-standard/
mircea_popescu: you realise what the N stands for yes ?
phf: ben_vulpes: you can't trick me, i've been to portland, and i gotta tell ya, there's not much starving going on there
ben_vulpes: on only a tangentially related topic, when do we get the B.H.-style AN1 that retains all earnings /in/ the corp?
ben_vulpes: "are you sure you wouldn't rather secure a loan with that 50k and set up a shop on squarespace?"
phf: this is almost the opposite of what my previous company would charge
ben_vulpes: phf: it's 400k for a mobile app if you bring your own designer, 50-200k if we design it, 10-40k for a single-purpose webapp with minimal frills and if you need a website, well, squarespace is over there. heck, they even do ecomm, and better than any wordprex.
mircea_popescu: hanbot the problem with your take on what's reasonable is that the other reasonable view is to simply say that everything's fine, nothing's wrong and there isn't nor could ever be any cause for expenditure, alarm or ultimately death. in principle this is a view that can not be dislodged, every living thing's expectation to live forever in a functional world is, misguided or not, nevertheless part and parcel of biology.
kakobrekla: hanbot to me this was 'unforeseen' event even if mp did it deliberately (by his own words) - there is no way that one could foresee further unforeseen events
hanbot: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432955 << not to get ahead of myself with you guys, but it seems to me that if these 17 btc were in fact the problem, then you acted reasonably by refusing to sign...whereas if a putative, later loss was the real problem here, a more reasonable approach might've been to sign this report, and work together to ensure that there won't be such a further monster.
mircea_popescu: no, bitbet was, at least the first incarnation, shivad together by kakobrekla in... whatr was it, two weeks or something, i don't recall exactly.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 23:45:07; humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1433034 << the devs are people residing in this channel in the first place.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1433012 << quite so. there's a time for everything, and the time for that came and went. it will have to be resolved in the way things are resolved that don't get resolved otherwise.
adlai for once, shuts himself up, to go sleep. putting preorders for morning popcorn, please keep the logs a-churnin (but do read them, too many idiots showing up here asking for summaries as though people are paid to write them)
adlai: i dunno, we're all a bunch of text here, except for the chicks that get their nickles one dime at a time
adlai: and 'solrodar' too, who has bigger balls than... who knows, maybe she wears them on her chest
adlai finds that he has nothing further constructive to add to the bitbet receivership saga; wishes mircea_popescu and kakobrekla best of luck resolving it in shareholders' best interests.
adlai: i hurt my 'reputation', for my own pleasure (and that of lurkers), and got the private keys stolen from under me fingers. oh well.
assbot: Logged on 01-03-2016 13:49:06; mircea_popescu: "noisehole, bullshitter, blowhard, drunkard, sadist, rapist, all-around disgrace to the sad sad State of Bitcoin (and a passive-aggressive plagiarist, too, to top a cherry on the shit-pan-kake!)" da fuck did you do adlai !
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-03-2016#1418943 << "i don't know i was very drunk at the time" (not trademarked, iirc i didn't even get liner note credits)
mircea_popescu: tho eulora is slowling clawing itself from underwater. but the usual vc crapolade is nowhere near bitbet, or where bitbet was in its first month.
mircea_popescu: ironcally, bitbet is not merely "a sure thing" - it's the only actually profitable, legit bitcoin business to date. THE ONLY.
mircea_popescu: ah yes, there is that. true, true.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432885 << possibly. in truth, nobody but they involved can call the actions either overreacting or not. that's why people got noggins, to judge their own actions.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:07:26; phf: jurov: i wonder if there are referees besides kako and mp. owners got at least 75btc each plus sales of shares, plus payouts from unsold shares.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:47:54; asciilifeform: phf: from rereading the logz, seems like mircea_popescu admits this, even.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:51; assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 19:10:37; asciilifeform: the failure of such a miner to exist is a game-theoretical smoking gun.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432848 << for the record, this is a lot weaker than it seems, for reasons discussed but perhaps worth repeating : it is so trivial to transform all txn into a high/low-S of one's choosing, that there exists no actual barrier due to it.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:44:17; asciilifeform: anyway my original point was that much of what we think of as 'tmsr economy' is not actually tmsr in any reasonable sense of the word, in that it is not effected by folks having a wot presence, nor does it even have so much as iceberg tip in the public forum.
mircea_popescu: (in the general, not re logs)
mircea_popescu: incidentally, what's the consensus of code wizards, compiled >>> parsed ?
phf: mircea_popescu: jurov pointed out the error of my ways, but i believe that i might've accomplished what i was fumbling for already
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:26:03; phf: jurov: you're right, there's not much that can be done as far as bickering. i find some of the positions rather petty or outright alarmist, but i can't keep people from talking. i'm only thinking that an arbitration procedure could produce tldr that at the very least will focus the attention.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432824 << suppose instead of runnign off to some sort of centralism, you just use the tools available ? they're here for this purpose ; you've seen them at work. gossipd didn't come out of the void, but out of practice based on philosophy honed with practice built on philosophy and so on and again numerous iterations over the years.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:23:52; asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu would rather burn it than let it go to hitler.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:21:59; asciilifeform: bbet was ~the~ bet machine, as far as i'm concerned, fwiw, and now there is none.
mircea_popescu: (none of this is to say that one ~oughtn't~ try. sure, one ought to try. but also understand that this is exactly like "one ought to try and fuck every woman that can walk within his visual radius". in a veeeheheheheeery theoretical principle, sure. in practice - there is such a thing as penis friction blisters.)
mircea_popescu: one should prolly look through eulora logs for some lulzy examples re the failure of the auction - the free market's revered, holy relic of a chief tool. guess what ? it... doesn't work!
mircea_popescu: and yes - for as long as pick one and you carefully sit under its umbrella, never leaving that domain "it works for me!". except we're in bitcoin specifically to see what's out there.
mircea_popescu: trinque's very basic notion above about "categorically your time" thing is just an axiomatic (if erroneous) pillar supporting one of these methods.
mircea_popescu: so, like it or not, it is still very much a research project for the human race.
mircea_popescu: they get good results in different fields but a) they're alwyas approximations and b) none of them even cover the whole field - not in the sense of being close but in the sense of EVER OFFERING a value function that may take any inputs.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:19:16; jurov: asciilifeform: one ought to try to value everything. otherwise end up looking hungry to these pies
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432804 << not everything can always be valued. you understand this, yes ? the market, as well as the central planning committee and all sorts of other arrangements (such as - organised religion) exist in an attempt to resolve the "zero-infinity" problem.
BingoBoingo wonders what if any L1 or L2 interest in bidding for BitBet software/domain is out there
mircea_popescu: !s "we were younger then"
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432795 << in this perspective, that it did last 2012-2016 is quite the fucking divine intervention / pinnacle of human achievement, huh.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:13:56; asciilifeform: also it is not clear to me what the folks in the dispute actuall want.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432786 << the very discussion, perhaps.
mircea_popescu: because yes, the thing as it worked is STILL a major improvement over traditional gambling anything, and there's no sane reason i could possibly see that bitbet wouldn't carry a majority of the world's 10bn to 1 trn dollars worth of yearly prop betting.
mircea_popescu: it STILL boggles my mind that this was the case ; but the case it was. and weren't it the case - bitbet'd be to this day and forever swimming in a pool of dough.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:16:41; asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: one of the problems is that apparently it was already not being carried.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432792 << perhaps the darkest voodoo involved in all of this, and one which i openly confess i struggled with for the entire interval and never managed to even comprehend let alone do a iota towards breaking was - that there seemed to be ~infinite ammount of bitcoin ready to COVER bets, but very little interest to fund them. somehow, for some reason, even with the strict
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432777 << and to think, in the worlds very capital of "murder for hire" even!
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:02:48; phf: instead the solution is what? to spend a bunch more days repeating same positions over and over again until you leave in disgust, people who are already on the mp side are galvanized, etc.?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432775 << sadly there is no safe, cheap and effectual substitute for actual life. all previous attempts to build this philosopher's stone (of which there's been no shortage) have come to grief.
mircea_popescu: (perhaps this is obivous to me only for some god-forsaken reason, but the next step after the view on the bitcoin protocol that it permits miners to arbitrarily reject txn and the collusion of miners is - you gotta get a license to bitcoinate. why hardfork to increase their revenue, even.)
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Seriously. I have suspicions on how this could be done, but... given the necessary ugliness in this sort of brokering solrodar's bid seems awfully cheap.
mircea_popescu: moreover, and more importantly, if you give over to the government the franchise to interpret private agreements, you provably construct a government even more far reaching than the welfare state, sitting in ~an equivalent position of the miner cartel but for contracts, and soon to issue "licenses to contract" or somesuch insanity.
BingoBoingo: The problem to selling in a way that maximally recoups value is my chief barrier to bidding. Hard problem I have little experience or connections to do.
solrodar: bbl, will keep an eye on the logs
mircea_popescu: which is how and why chetty's passing bumped her trust in my eyes to 10 : not because she's "very good" now, but because she lacks any further capacity to surprise anyone. at least so goes the logic.
mircea_popescu: 4/what-the-wot-is-for-how-it-works-and-how-to-use-it/#footnote_4_53927 )
mircea_popescu: (and since we're on it, this important point seems perhaps lost and is still paramount : "It is important to remember that the score associated to a relationship does not mark the direct trust of the scorer for the scoree, but merely the scorer's confidence that the information he has about scoree is correct, accurate, relevant and complete. All four." from the ever-fascinatingly counterintuitive http://trilema.com/201
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:00:41; phf: jurov: but overall, all that is for us to figure out, yeah? the "judge" in this case is one of our peers, can look at what transpired, present an opinion, "it is the opinion of this judged, having considered all facts available, that mp done goofed". mp can go "well fuck you judge", you can go "that's a fair assessment", negrate mp and move on
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432770 << obviously anyone's free to use the wot as they please (and yes, lack of homogenity is still its only defense against immediate explosive doom) but i can't see myself negrating someone for not agreeing with someone else. seems rather rich.
mircea_popescu: i'm aware that they do these weird "can't throw X people off premises" in the us, but the excision of that sort of nonsense is no small part of what tmsr is all about.
mircea_popescu: a judge may decide what a contract means if there's dispute between the parties, which here is what the [judge] sindic aka receiver is going to do anyway. other than that - he can't order for "the world" to satisfy any party's perceived comfort, no matter how dressed up.
mircea_popescu: d if he tries, they'll disconnect your thing an hour a day. at which point what, you go to your congressman to sponsor a law making it illegal for provider to disconnect shitty users ? are we trying to rebuild the great nation of america or something ? would be cheaper to just go with the one extant.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:53:38; phf: jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432304 is what i said about the 17btc question
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432761 << it's entirely unclear to me what you think this'd do. let's work an example. you sign up for one of those newfangled internet thingees. provider sells you it, you meet the girl of your dreams in australia, keep in daily email touch. provider hikes the rate. you... what, go to a judge, to order the provider to charge you less ? not something the judge can do - an
mircea_popescu: who was that guy anyway, famously told judge that "he can be born wherever he wants to!" ? painter, accused of passing off a "too shitty to be sold" painting, late us reverberation of the school wars.
solrodar: much less than the value of a going concern with a reputation
mircea_popescu: i suppose the "what's the value of code" item is a very vague thing on the internet still huh.
solrodar: I would suggest that the domain remains in kakobrekla's hands and temporarily pointed to an address under my control
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432755 << how did that go, "yes half hour of my time and a lifetime of learning the trade" or somesuch.
solrodar: my personal standing is irrelevant, as interested buyers are likely to already be familiar with the site
mircea_popescu: so you're going to try as a package first, then just the domain on a 2nd pass, and advertise this on forums - how many, which, do you have good standing accounts in any (which) or is this going to be just some drive-by spam thing ?
solrodar: for the codebase, potential buyers are likely to be fewer, so my initial thought would be to conduct the auction in #b-a with bidders solicited from forums likely to be interested
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432744 << this is a complicated proposition. the traditional avenue of the dedicated tramp is to join a group, liberally fuck anyone but the alpha of that group, insist that the alpha marry her. this presses a very strict choice on the alpha that's not trivially resolved - if he kills her everyone else loses a fuckdoll ; if he marries her he's fucked, not only stuck with
mircea_popescu: well good, but i don't think he's buying. at any rate, so what do you plan to do to actually get cash out of the goods ? list them for sale somewhere ? simply run an auction here ? details help.
solrodar: I would also provide a third-party verification that in my judgment the codebase for sale is complete and working
solrodar: the answer is no
solrodar: and secondly, that in the interests of settling this before the end of the year, I might choose to refund some bets rather than waiting for them all to resolve
mircea_popescu: do you have any sort of particular assets that'd likely help ? prior experience in doing this sort of thing (selling online properties) ? connections or otherwise some power putting you above others in some way ?
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1phuhuR )
solrodar: essentially what you suggested at http://trilema.com/2016/the-greatly-anticipated-bitbet-sbbet-february-2016-statement/#comment-116766 , with a few alterations
solrodar: mircea_popescu would continue to hold them in trust, and agree to pay them out in accordance with my ajudication, unless that ajudication was rejected by (say) 10 people currently in assbot's L1
solrodar: obviously I'm not well known enough to be trusted with the site funds, so I have a proposal
solrodar: now that I see that kakobrekla has also agreed to liquidation, I am applying for the job of receiver
mircea_popescu: "the jungle" and all that crud.
mircea_popescu: or whatever, read the various bleeding heart reenaction about the fate of the proletarian in the pre-1900s.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432738 << this is not generally true. even if it were true - it'd also be the essence of oppression. think well about how a world would look where hunger drives coding, for instance. i dunno if you've ever experienced the classical street urchin of central asia thing, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: the interests of that force will never align with your naive market theory, and so no, categorically, market in v's isn't happening.
mircea_popescu: which is why the only time a market in women exists is when it's maintained by significant outside force.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:47:25; trinque: there's nothing that precludes a market of v implementations categorically
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432731 << this idea seems good in theory. in practice, this is exactly never happening. easier to understand why not, is to understand why there IS something categorically preventing a market in women ; like a supermarket where you go buy one. the ones that are above average have no incentive to participate - see the discussion about lemon laws and the death spiral except
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432711 << i dunno why people figure i do all sorts of things myself, not that the idea isn't flattering. but no, i'm no shiva.
jurov: apparently you intended bitbet as a tool to establish The Order in bitcoin, while kakobrekla unawares thought it's usual business
mircea_popescu: this is the same kakobrekla, you recall, who went on a trip to check out a hungarian asicminer on a day's notice, also in these very logs. the sort of rationality of old people is not particularly relevant to the young - and same is true of bitcoin.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:40; asciilifeform: would there even have been a marriage to divorce from ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432703 << i'm pretty sure there would have been, yes.
mircea_popescu: but yes, if you're curious, the reason i might blast at you when you go into a patented jurov tailspin while i'm simply bitchslapping him into oblivion is that you WERE here then, and your spleen is actually part of that same ground. and yes these things matter, at least to me.
mircea_popescu: obody's thanking anyone for giving up his spleen to MAKE UP the ground on which he walks - it's just ground, a given, forget about it) you want to credit rather than charge, so as to give things a chance.
assbot: The positive market effects of the delivery bet. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KzV3mo )
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:35:13; jurov: and also if the "trash disposal" fees were acknowledged, bitbet's precarious financials would be talked about and resolved much sooner
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432701 << the big problem here is that in a nascent economy (and please remember that bitbet was born in 2012, not in 2015, and its primary function at the time was stuff like http://trilema.com/2013/the-positive-market-effects-of-the-delivery-bet/ ie help clear up an entirely INSANE space, which it did admirably well and which nobody credits today because hey, fuck us, n
mircea_popescu: obviously anyone reading is free to color what they read any way that suits them, but still.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> phf: they never quite got to this point << i dun think this was the case either intended or implied.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 20:29:33; jurov: from today's log i have learned that it's important to report *all* expenses, otherwise the "did this or that for free" arguments become another nail in the coffin
humanoidity: Moreover, what bit you here might bite others.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: didn't imply you needed them, but getting other knowledgeable folks' opinion on a particular situation doesn't strike me as unreasonable.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: on the technical issue that bit you guys (re-issuing a tx multiple times IIUC), and the conspiracy theories it spawned, I am wondering if you guys raised the issue with the devs to see if they reach the same conclusion ?
kakobrekla: eating the cost may not guarantee it happening in the future (the technical solution i made was suppose to do that) but it sure would help
phf: right, so you're saying mp should've eaten the cost to prevent that sort of issues in the future
kakobrekla: if bankers are not punished by reality you can end up with the world blowing up
kakobrekla: phf you cant have responsibility without liability; no skin in the game - no game. if nothing else, it creates a set of bad incentives. this is how fiat world works and we collectively despise that.
humanoidity: phf: I see. Hence the "receiver" bizness. Sounds like a marriage counselor is what is needed here :)
humanoidity: jurov: ah, yes, the pgp signed contracts which can't ever be renegociated when external circumstances change. I hadn't realized that.
phf: i take it the issue is not "where" the money comes from (because there's a valid existing venue that worked in the past for this particular usecase), the issue is that of trust, i.e. kako doesn't trust mp for future bitbet operations
kakobrekla: technical solution to the problem is coded but i dont think it will ever be used. for other solutions - it seems the ship has sailed
jurov: humanoidity: the contract explicitly forbids dilution
humanoidity: kakobrekla : have you guys explored selling more bitbet shares ? Might be another way to recover those 17BTC, diluting shareholder value a little. And then let bygone etc... and focus on making sure the payout problem can't happen again.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 16:20:43; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432065 << if you wish to help the receiver along through donating all/part of the work in a publicly verifiable manner, that is your privilege and i am sure will be appreciated by the beneficiaries who they may be.
humanoidity: kakobrekla: from a newcomer's pov, you guys seem to be fairly upset with one another, which - given what you built together is imo makes this impasse a bit of a waste
kakobrekla: yes its somewhere in the log
jurov: kakobrekla: several people asked of your coherent statement, did you at least say you're willing to work with the receiver?
humanoidity: got it, thx. will read the noob page now :)
humanoidity: Yeah, 750. But what I mean is that spreading that 17BTC loss over the 740BTC outstanding bets might be a way out. The only liability will be the site's rep, and the damage won't be irreparable looks like
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: in a way i 'skipped school', did not lose coin in any of the major catastrophes of the dark ages
humanoidity: kakobrekla: is there a path forward to unjam things for bitbet at this point ? I'm not I am fully groking this "receiver" business
asciilifeform: it would seem like that one can be resolved in the entirely ordinary way
kakobrekla: its up to receiver to resolve the bets that can be resolved or plain refund all that is possible
asciilifeform: unless someone can actually ~prove~ google malfeasance, the bet resolves to a machine win
kakobrekla: it still can theoretically
asciilifeform: as announced the day of
assbot: Logged on 02-03-2016 17:15:50; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yes, by the time the 4th txn trying to pay out bitbet vanished without a trace, i was sort-of expecting it.
humanoidity: kakobrekal: Ah, I guess the implied message is that you believe mp's to be at fault for the double payout ?
humanoidity: kakobrekla: for the sake of the newcomers here ... can you expand on why mp's 17BTC offer wasn't acceptable ?
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 21:20:43; asciilifeform: i won't bet so much as a satoshi at a betmoose or fairlay or whatever other wotless wild derpery.
asciilifeform: crashed only 1 time in 10, vs other microshits ? or what
asciilifeform: a wolf, by and large, cannot even conceptualize the ticks
asciilifeform: a mircea_popescu - can remove the ticks.
asciilifeform: the pay of labourers is parasitized disproportionately by usg et al for the same reason wolf in the forest is covered in ticks
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: most of'em squeeze out a fairly pathetic existence if you count pay PER HOUR OF ACTUAL SWEAT
BingoBoingo: Well this is why alfs are stuck in alf ghettos instead of regions where they'd have the possibility of surplus income.
assbot: Logged on 14-03-2016 22:18:12; phf: and i have no idea, and i think that's the problem ascii runs into a lot too, my hour, when paid in fiat, is more expensive by a margin. but my work on various tmsr ventures is unpaid, so a bitcoin operation, that's funneling bitcoins at a steady pace?
phf: thestringpuller: there's a precedent. an mpif credit was extended june 2014 and no dividends paid until credit was payed off july and august.
BingoBoingo: The Bahamas daughter has an ass
thestringpuller: does company get lent credit and just book the bill as an expense? it's probably justifiable if done in a way where shareholders still get to see ~some~ profit monthly, but company doesn't go bankrupt paying of credit.
humanoidity: jurov: I read "Nevertheless, I am floating its negative cash balance free of charge, with a view of being defrayed from future profits.". I may not be using the accurate terminology here, but it sounds like a loan.
humanoidity: phf : gotcha. So there's quite a bit of cash parked in there atm, and 17btc doesn't look like at huge amount to build back. Why on earth was mp's loan offer rejected ?
phf: humanoidity: safety interpretation is between you and your counterparties. 750.4btc, as of right now all in their corresponding addresses
jurov: they *are* safe but subject to liquidation, about which i have no idea
humanoidity: Also, I'd be interested to know how much bet money is currently parked at bitbet, and how safe these are