mircea_popescu: you can either have this chip be 256 mb or 4gb. what do you prefer.
mircea_popescu: what other sense ?
mod6: there has got to be an individual cost, but it's probably rolled up into single "unit" of storage.
asciilifeform: well in the sense of taking up die space - yes, cost.
mircea_popescu: there is a "smallest printed diode"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't as if the parts have fixed cost ~each~
mircea_popescu: "higher cost per bit" is significant tho. it's either two capacitors, or two capacitors + two diodes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu and other n00bz : http://image.slidesharecdn.com/dram-140915070657-phpapp01/95/dram-6-638.jpg?cb=1410764912
mod6: Yeah, kinda looks like it. (Was just taking a peek there...)
mod6: back when that was a thing it probably was more affordable for Mr. Luser. What about these days?
asciilifeform: dram is how we get wonders such as 'rowhammer', but also bits that rot from not only cosmic ray but the background gamme of impurities in ITSELF, etc
asciilifeform: (they come with a 'burst mode' where the counter auto-increments, so you don't waste time loading a next addr)
asciilifeform: though to some extent space locality is also built into drams as we know them
mircea_popescu: hence all the branch prediction etc bs
asciilifeform: and is only really meaningful for a general-purpose cpu, the concept is not even defined re something like a miner
asciilifeform: incidentally, the 'branch is wasteful' thing taught in school has to do entirely with caches, and ergo is not relevant in a flat memory (e.g., the inside of a miner)
asciilifeform: whereas in mathematical fact, it is.
asciilifeform: there is some confusion in the literature because certain sly operators would have you believe that - e.g., a conditional MOV - is not a branch.
mod6: they're lying to me
mod6: The other technique is to write programs without branches, or with fewer branches, typically using bitwise operations instead. [1] [Knuth, Donald (2008). The Art of Computer Programming. Volume 4, Pre-fascicle 1A (Revision 6 ed.). pp. 48-49.]
mod6: oh. right, can't you avoid them with bitwise ops?
mircea_popescu: what he was talking about was that in all fpga/asic designs, the branches are the time waster / heat dissipater
mod6: if not, maybe a word or 6 on what you're getting at there.
mod6: oh do i understand you correctly on the branching problem -- if the stackframes are signed, how will i know (in advance) which address to jump to if all addresses are assigned at run time?
mod6: was weird. maybe i took the acid.
mircea_popescu: that sort of thing only "works" if patently nonsensical, as per the original.
asciilifeform: what'd be the point of signing program states ?
asciilifeform: mod6: if you already know the output, sign ~that~
mod6: a register before executing the next op.
mod6: is there anything to my wack-o dream? could a method be developed to have signed stack frames that the cpu would only execute up successful validation? would this even be worthwhile? probably not, a guy can still probably grab the IP and point it where he likes. probably would have to have some sort of pipeline (is this a thing?) that would make sure that there was valid checksum (from signature) held in
asciilifeform: for all i know they are already shipping evil chip.
BingoBoingo: The AMD E350 'Bobcat' is still frequently available, often soldered into MB
asciilifeform: socket was changed, they cannot be used with recent boards
asciilifeform: briefly returning to the opterons, unfortunately they are quite useless alone, they must be stockpiled with ~period mb~
mod6: he was going to do this V like thing where each op has a corresponding hash, and at the end of all the ops, the hashes had to match or the cpu wouldn't execute the thing...
mircea_popescu: perhaps focusing on the wrong side of that question./
asciilifeform: (this does not include cost of litigating, either.)
asciilifeform: who recalls the discussion of muller gate ?
asciilifeform: the tardz.
mod6: i hear you there. fuck, still snowing in my sector.
mircea_popescu: mno, we're not discussing a religion, but a theology.
asciilifeform: ah, then it!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "science" as the metaphysical concept. it's not what you and i mean by the proper term.
mircea_popescu: heck, the bulgarians spent a millenium trying to immitate byzantine ridiculousness.
mod6: 'imitation is the highest form of compliment'
asciilifeform: same reason the idiots run winblowz
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the reason i said 'not only intellectual property' is that cn is happy to piss on american patents but STILL continues to churn out straight knockoffs of usg crud
mod6: herp to the derp mod6
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'd say the concept of pow was not well researched altogether, at that point.
midnightmagic: but there's a neat possible 20% algorithmic improvement in bitcoin mining that was just released that might eat bitfury/et al lunch.
mod6: (17:57) <+mircea_popescu> shinohai> I see there is no way shinohai can just donate the shares back to qntra and forget about it all. << you can prolly instruct jurov to sell them and donate proceeds to foundation say. << this is exactly the correct approach. this way we take a btc donation (tyvm!) and we continue to only hold M1
mircea_popescu: nah, it's becoming apparent to me that the WTC that needs bombing is exactly that.
mircea_popescu: what else, the army ?
mircea_popescu: yet another angle that shows the fundamental link between "intellectual property" and both the usg\s continued claims to financial power as well as the continued infestation of the free world.
mircea_popescu: or maybe the azn producers too unruly.
mircea_popescu: i dunno wtf they were thinking putting it in the chip rather than the ram. i guess nobody could have predicted mp kills moore together with gavin.
asciilifeform: but it would be mega-improvement if folks outside the большая зона were buyin'.
mircea_popescu: and we - by which i mean mostly not me - should be buying, at least by the pound.
asciilifeform: btw i found that old opteron is being sold surplus by the tonne
mircea_popescu: fuck you, how about that, next person who feels the need to ask.
mircea_popescu: but... people prefer to sit on ass and wonder "what are the criteria" bla bla.
mircea_popescu: the irony is that well... NOT LIKE NEWER CHIPS WILL BE BETTER
mircea_popescu: but yes, one thing the republic might consider is a stockpile of proper amd chips
asciilifeform: hey they're still usable!111 just dun buy post-'13 chip.
mircea_popescu: anyway. yes amd gave us usable computers for a five-year plan longer than'd have been otherwise possible.
asciilifeform: but let's not conflate the two
mircea_popescu: there is that. but it'd be a self-bake sorta deal.
mircea_popescu: anyway this pipermail list... when i see all the shitty signatures i get nausea.
mircea_popescu: which term includes any and all tax-paying entities there.
mircea_popescu: also why the fuck does he even have mips on that list, i thought they had their own bs.
asciilifeform: in particular, tivoization means that ~your pc is a nintendo~ with microshit - holding the signing key.
asciilifeform: the linked essay speaks for itself, described - for n00bz - precisely why merely cutting off the net pipe does not sanitize a box.
asciilifeform: i looked far and wide, even turned up, e.g., that renesas still manufactures the super-H (sega!)
asciilifeform: the cpu situation is dire, far more so than anyone here realizes afaik.
asciilifeform: the result - VERY discouraging.
asciilifeform: back to thread, briefly, i regularly survey the market for cpu-that-could-bitcoinate
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the relationship between sane bitcoin source as available on trb www and "bitcoin" is THE SAME as the relation between a sane implementation of tetris and "running tetris"
asciilifeform: briefly back to thread, every other month or so i do an exhaustive survey of commercially-available cpu
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the "full source" does WHAT ?
mircea_popescu: ^is there more substance to this than stargazing ?
mircea_popescu: "=== RISCV === While this architecture is extremely limited in performance, price, and performance per watt compared to x86, ARM, or POWER, it is also one of the only fully open source CPU architectures available outside of an FPGA. and may eventually be competitive with MIPS in terms of raw performance. Currently there are no RISCV SoCs in production, however projects such as lowRISC aim to change that: http://www.lowrisc.
asciilifeform: arm would be usable if there were EVEN ONE documented arm chip available.
mircea_popescu: basically the only actually usable thing in his list is arm
mircea_popescu: so this is an absolute defense against any and all accusations of "computer crime" for as long as the hardware involved is post 2009 intel / 2013 amd.
asciilifeform: it contains evil gpu without which it is unusable, and there is NO known doc for it
asciilifeform: one nitpick: the c201 chromebook he recommends as a potential arm box is a TURD
jurov: unless mod6/ben_vulpes instruct me to keep the shares as intangible property of the foundation... imo not happening with such qty
mircea_popescu: shinohai> I see there is no way shinohai can just donate the shares back to qntra and forget about it all. << you can prolly instruct jurov to sell them and donate proceeds to foundation say.
PeterL: and I don't think the liabilites add up right?
PeterL: <deedbot-> [Trilema] MiniGame (S.MG), March 2016 Statement - http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-smg-march-2016-statement/ << mircea_popescu shouldn't the shareholder's equity change be -1.x instead of +1.x?
PeterL: shinohai why not sell them?
asciilifeform: l0l heathen deedbot ?
shinohai: I see there is no way shinohai can just donate the shares back to qntra and forget about it all.
BingoBoingo: What, you write lines in the channel. You aren't illiterate.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: practice? Start a blawg to practice writing and then submit newsy things to qntra?
shinohai: BingoBoingo: << Pile more qntra shares on top of them? <<< since I suck at writing, I don't see that happening.
mircea_popescu: in other news, Pavlichenko was later invited by Eleanor Roosevelt to tour America relating her experiences. While meeting with reporters in Washington, D.C. she was dumbfounded about the kind of questions put to her. "One reporter even criticized the length of the skirt of my uniform, saying that in America women wear shorter skirts and besides my uniform made me look fat".
phf: now lets see, the pink pantaloons are out, and yellow jockstraps are in. the handkerchief should be in the ~left~ pocket of your velvet vest and not ~right~ pocket of a wwii bomber jacket. that one tripped up a bunch of contenders. last minute addition was a brooch, make sure it matches the cravat, not a ground for dismissal, but judges look favorably at lord applicants that are aware of only the latest tmsr fashions
mats: whats the new criteria for lordliness?
gribble: Lyudmila Pavlichenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko>; Eleanor Roosevelt and the Soviet Sniper | History | Smithsonian: <http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/eleanor-roosevelt-and-the-soviet-sniper-23585278/>; lyudmila Pavlichenko - Soviet WWII sniper hero - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJHpWPBtEwQ>
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> ;;later tell BingoBoingo when you have time, need to discuss what do with my paltry qntra shares. << Pile more qntra shares on top of them?
asciilifeform: incidentally the folks of odessa preferred ro occupants to germans. for an interesting reason.
mircea_popescu: we're well set for grandfathers.
mircea_popescu: hey, my grandfather beat teh russkis outta odessa.
phf: my grandfather spent all his time implementing, than architecting, than overseeing bunch of other people implementing and architecting analogue avionics for su rockets, mil and "gagarin space man" kind
asciilifeform: fwiw my grandfather spent a good chunk of his life on hydraulic analogue computerz.
mircea_popescu: the cray, really.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what did 'research' consist of there ? re-creating z80 ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: i'm all for "20 years ago", but they're fucking idiots.
mircea_popescu: hey, my own father spent what he imagined to be his golden years, at the time and after that time, doing "research" for his government on supposedly, computing, but really, holding each other's dicks like a bunch of chimps.
asciilifeform: 'the best time is 20 yrs ago, 2nd best - today'
mircea_popescu: the only counter is that there is no such thing as too soon in the flesh. until the time one stands up from couch, just how out of shape one is will never be known.
asciilifeform: phf: this goes back, again, to mircea_popescu's human-element. see the 'pulling the pin' thread from 2 wks ago
mircea_popescu: phf you are not alone in the view that this whole thing is too soon.
phf: would still want to figure out a bunch of problems before applying it "with computers" anyway, crypto, airgap, having it stored in a such a way that the inevitable arrest doesn't result in "5000 financial records were recovered in a daring raid by the brave constables"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nono, the use of ~~~SCIENCE~~~ will allow a collection of bureaucrats to satisfy in practice the delusional requirements of what mp "should have been"
asciilifeform: though an argument can be made that the quality of human material available in practice is ~considerably~ below what was around 100, much less 2000y ago.
asciilifeform: hey we're still using the same humanz
mircea_popescu: they only seem fundamental to the hordes of spawn for which a soul couldn't be found, so they ended up consumers.
mircea_popescu: yes, could benefit from soap and electricity, but these aren't fundamental changes
asciilifeform: rms lived on the spine of a usgtronic dragon, and it is not clear to me that he had any influence in reality over what the dragon did
phf: kind of like rms bringing back mit ai lab, when all the cool kids left for smbx
phf: that's also an idea from "when everything had a spec, and everything was written to spec, and things just fit into each other neatly" decades
asciilifeform: (incidentally this is an actual thing, and a decade ago i actually thought that i invented it, but then learned that it was cristina cifuentes's thesis)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is the basic principle of 'specificity of diddling' (for fuck's sake it needs a name)
asciilifeform: (ALL of them, not simply x86)
asciilifeform: i actually REMOVED the asm optimizations from my fork of gmp, for instance.
asciilifeform: phf: definitely not the latter, x86 is to be killed and cement poured where it is buried
phf: i'm just anticipating the next tmsr language
asciilifeform: 9 or so of the remaining % is because you get static memory (no consing, no gc, FORCED to intelligently allocate).
asciilifeform: if this were available somewhere else, i would look into the somewhere else.
asciilifeform: the reason i asked was that i noticed that ada links just fine with cpp crud, both having been shat out of ordinary gcc
mircea_popescu: truth be told our diligent efforts over the years - and by our i mean mostly not mine - exposed so many hooks for fixing and improving it's not even funny.
asciilifeform: again these are mircea_popescutronic questions! they leave aside the issue of 'have we the divisions'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no good reason - for the contemplated july alternative offering
asciilifeform: in other 'news', in my dream, mircea_popescu was camping in a tent in my house, and reading a dead tree copy of the logz summarized by somebody or other, and it was a thing on ancient yellowed paper, he cursed and spat and in the end tore it up and started smashing things, then went out the door and started firing some sort of energy weapon at the trees
asciilifeform: (the issue of whether the muscle exists, to do this, is a separate question. the above is simply re the political aspect of whether it is a thing that is even to be contemplated.)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu i had a notion: if we're no longer holding the 'father's pistols' line, is there any good reason not to replace openssl in trb with, e.g., ada bignum ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have not forgotten the broadcast! it will appear tonight.
mircea_popescu: during that blank space, the jews conquered egypt and started a new dynasty, founded carthage, tyre, byblos, etc ; dominated the golden crescent and so on.
mircea_popescu: but these are all considerations for one millennium prior to what the europeans generally regard as "history".
mircea_popescu: aramaic script is a variation thereof.
mircea_popescu: yes because there's no l1 outside of this
mircea_popescu: well there's no mir cea
trinque: danielpbarron: might've had extraneous whitespace somewhere in the command
mircea_popescu: they're also of very similar ability. ancient ro joke going something like "if you see a romanian successfuly engaged in commerce, you're looking at an armenian"
trinque: PeterL's problem was that the thing's caps sensitive; I'm going to fix that today
trinque: what'd you say to the bot before it parted and rejoined?
mircea_popescu: what, father ?!
mircea_popescu: "my sons, preserve the jews!"
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the parts that didn't come there in the shape of "look what books we can't read we stole from the jews, let's ignore half the sentences" came there in the shape of "look what books we can't read we stole from the armenians, let's ignore half the sentences".
mircea_popescu: well... if one's to study religion, even if limiting it to europe, there's a lot more there than anyone cares to admit.
mircea_popescu: and the imprisoned sophia in his chin dribble ?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron you familiar with the old idea that you know, the creation-god is this hunchback covetous idiot of a fellow,
mircea_popescu: PeterL no, i am saying that opposition to myself has ~0 chances to come from the sort of mind that ignores half of what happens.
mircea_popescu: in opposition to the unitarian approach in power.
mircea_popescu: ideologically, they, like the manicheans (yes, hence maniheism) and the bogomils and early gnostic christians held some things about the dual nature of the perceptible world
mircea_popescu: but be that as it may : the cathars (from greek, with a k there) are one in a string of organised anticlerical opposition to the official doctrine, politically speaking.
mircea_popescu: that somehow is really the important thing!
PeterL: somehow I glazed over the whole second half of your sentence, I don't understand what cathars have to do with Judas?
mircea_popescu: don't tell me you just ignored the thing you didn't understand!
mircea_popescu: fancy that, the anglos spell it with a c like sane people for once. heh.
mircea_popescu: right ? exactly. what did YOU think retirement is ? "finally rid of the kids"
PeterL: what retirement? you get to keep living without all the deprs holding you back
mircea_popescu: "oh you've been with the corp for 55 years here's a gold watch" ? fuck that.
mircea_popescu: well i dunno how much the xtian plagiarists understood of the thing they were trying to steal&rename, but
mircea_popescu: hm. shouldn't the fact that he has come again be pretty bad news ?
PeterL: http://trilema.com/2016/the-lordship-list-third-year-on-trilema-this-time/ << thus are anointed the twelve apostles of the Cult of Trilema
PeterL: did deedbot not import the old WoT?
mircea_popescu: did the db crap out trinque ?
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, a comment like "x never did his six months it appears" is unlikely to help x in any way. it used to be that kids were trained to throw an exception whenever something they didn't understood happened. by now however, ustards especially, just ignore the whole thing they didn't understand and continue as if it never happened.
mircea_popescu: are you specialer than them or something ?
mircea_popescu: and wouldn;t you know it, no nsa report. hey asciilifeform how is it that BingoBoingo hanbot jurov etc all manage to do their reports in time and you i always have to remind ?
mircea_popescu: agorecki> how would mp shoot down a blockchain protocol change? I've never seen him post on the bitcoin dev mailing list <<<< ahahaha what the fuck is this now.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> "DoS" seems rather farfetched, a readthrough of the DoS usage implies it's more of an ad-hoc block/txn rule enforcement mechanism. <<< it is exactly what it is.
mircea_popescu: if you care to know, the top of the line limo in most of the world for the previous 30 years before that was black, weighed two tons + made of mostly sheet metal, and did about 5 kms to the liter.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> 1982 muscle car driven at 75-95 mph for 160 miles gets 18.25 mpg << engines advanced significantly past 30 or so years ; idiocies of the eu envirofreaks and their us-based fanbois notwithstanding.
asciilifeform: ftr i will not be raising my max bid. if anyone wants the thing, they can bit 9 + epsilon.
ben_vulpes: and yet few actually went so far as to implement that which they were voting for
ben_vulpes: many miners threw the voting bit
ben_vulpes: the mainstreamers had this notion that miners would vote on their acceptance of a certain fork by including some data in the block
gribble: Another Post BIP 66 Fork Dies after 3 Blocks | Qntra: <http://qntra.net/2015/07/another-post-bip-66-fork-dies-after-3-blocks/>; Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra: <http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/>; Miners Enforcing BIP 65: Plan for SPV Miner Forks | Qntra: <http://qntra.net/2015/12/miners-enforcing-bip-65-plan-for-spv-miner-forks/>
ben_vulpes: rather illuminating
agorecki: no. I'm a prisoner of the illuminati... I'm afraid I missed that event...
ben_vulpes: agorecki: do you remember the "voting with blocks" fiasco?
ben_vulpes: mind the client/protocol gap
agorecki: alright, so if he doesn't like a change it doesn't get into the client and therefore wouldn't be used
agorecki: so you're making a better bitcoin and hijacking the name?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: has the /best/ drugs
ben_vulpes: $up agorecki therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/
ben_vulpes: i wanted to see his brain melt when you linked him to the foundation, ml etc
phf: agorecki: and you come all the way to tell us that? that's awfully considerate of you
agorecki: they're considered in a lot of places
agorecki: how would mp shoot down a blockchain protocol change? I've never seen him post on the bitcoin dev mailing list
ben_vulpes: aok yes piles 'o context in there
phf: ben_vulpes: i'm not, that might be the problem
ben_vulpes: phf: are you familiar with trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ ?
ben_vulpes: phf: correctly restated: "in the context of producing nonce-th block/bit digests per 'prerequisite'"
phf: what you mean in the context of producing hashes?
ben_vulpes: but i do mean cblock specifically, and in the context of producing hashes.
ben_vulpes: "DoS" seems rather farfetched, a readthrough of the DoS usage implies it's more of an ad-hoc block/txn rule enforcement mechanism.
phf: ben_vulpes: you mean cblock specifically or the whole cblock/ctransaction DoS mechanism?
BingoBoingo: Seriously, the window sticker numbers are a lie
ben_vulpes: in other completely unrelated news, i went out to what passes for wine country here to refresh the office cellars. found some delicious bottles for not absurd prices, lovely people, etc. but! stunner to me at least:
mircea_popescu has been on a crusade to detrain (mostly women) from the retarded habit of generalizing summarization as displayed here for a decade now.
mircea_popescu: the shit doesn't belong in writing.
asciilifeform: 'EC-Council, the Albuquerque, New Mexico-based professional organization that administers the Certified Ethical Hacker program, started spreading the scourge on Monday.'
mircea_popescu: and yet the derp won't name names.
asciilifeform: 'For the past four days, including during the hour that this post was being prepared on Thursday morning, a major security certification organization has been spreading TeslaCrypt malware—despite repeated warnings from outside researchers.'
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/certified-ethical-hacker-website-caught-spreading-crypto-ransomware
mircea_popescu: (also, how to know if nerdy chick is really into weird, or just namedropping the mainstream-famous set)
mircea_popescu: other famous washdcians
gribble: Albert Fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish>; ALBERT FISH - American Hauntings: <http://www.prairieghosts.com/fish.html>; Albert Fish | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers: <http://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/fish-albert.htm>
mircea_popescu: and in other news