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mircea_popescu: he has a point. there is no more decent.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: anything like the side plate
mircea_popescu: well... they already kinda do.
mircea_popescu: and notice that it did end stuff like the a-h empire.
asciilifeform: aha. in the old days you had to bury it.
mircea_popescu: yeah, but that was only half the answer. rocket also delivers the hsaped charge.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that they very carefully don't go places lenin went w/o a thought.
pete_dushenski: first one for the girl. no big deal.
pete_dushenski: btw happy mother's day! (to diana_coman(?), etc.)
pete_dushenski: gunports make plenty of sense, as does the fact that tmsr will end up redesigning personal transportation along with computing and everything else besides
mircea_popescu: severe the relationship << sever
mircea_popescu: "was naturally involved with the prosecution with evil itself offering:" << this dun flow. "was naturally involved with the prosecution:"
mircea_popescu: no idea why they didn't go full takn and add the gunports, but w/e.
mircea_popescu: kinda died off with the age of rocketry, bout late 90s.
mircea_popescu: yeah. most upper line merc/lexus/what have you have the engine and torque transmission etc optimized for armor even if you're not buying the armor upgrade.
mircea_popescu: armor's the big thing.
pete_dushenski: i wish bbet would come back so i could bet on phuctor cracking a deedbot l2 key. seems like the kind of thing no one would expect, like ron paul talking for 10 minutes or w/e it was
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-05#1463281 << i should probably update my blog links from the old #b-a ones huh, at least my 'reviews' in the right column
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464636 << a chunk of this seemingly excess capacity is to account for two things : a) the obvious need for husky bodyguards to accompany asian heads of state, and b) the less obvious need for the same platform to accommodate the optional hybrid battery pack that weighs ~900lbs~ more and takes up most of the trunk.
pete_dushenski: 'boomtown' isn't growing at 10-20% per annum, tis true, but it's pretty resilient at these oil price levels. $20 would be a massacre, $40+ is more than liveable
BingoBoingo: Oh, you've talked about the "boomtown" in decline thing going on there for a while
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: lol i won't even try to guess what you think i should think about the alberta wildfires, but it's pretty damn lulzy to watch the reigning socialist party flail impotently as they attribute the projected 1/3rd loss of ~the country's~ economic growth for the quarter to "karma" because "karbon"
asciilifeform: it isn't in the logz prior to now, either.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: (speaking of actual nodez, rather than muppets)
asciilifeform: in mostly-unrelated nyooz, fewer nodez today than there were 3y ago.
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> browsers frequently pass newlines from forms as \r\n << werd thanks for the quick response :]
mircea_popescu: 2.15mn is not bad. punkman1 got anywhere with the sr stuff ?
asciilifeform: good for another hour or so !
asciilifeform: expect this unit to be eventually renamed to 'qeer' or the like.
mircea_popescu: in completely unrelated lulz : the "minimum description length community" (what ? dunno, ask them) changed turing's nit to to "nat", because why the fuck not.
asciilifeform: but a drawing of the graph illustrates all pressables.
asciilifeform: then yes
mircea_popescu: anywya : as the graph progresses past the antecedent of a leaf, it therefore goes outside the event horizon of that leaf.
mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry whithin which phenomena can affect the observer) << this is a much less intuitive, if technically correct affirmative statement.
asciilifeform: it is the boundary where observer can no longer get sucked into the phenomenon .
asciilifeform: (if it dn affect the observer, he's not observing!)
mircea_popescu: the opposite of a boundry ?
asciilifeform: the opposite?
mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry past which phenomena can no further affect the observer)
mircea_popescu: ok, more practically speaking : the graphatron is a visualizer of individual patches event horizons. how about that.
mircea_popescu: perhaps the difference not interesting here.
mircea_popescu: ah, no, sh is the equiv of entropy. "count of possible states".
mircea_popescu: well what the fuck do they know.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the standard term of "enthalpy equivalent in turing machines" ? the shannon factor ?
mircea_popescu: and don't say stuff like <- either. time goes ->
mircea_popescu: well then don't say stuff like Z->Y.
phf: right, that's the basic principle
mircea_popescu: or fuck, seems somehow Z is the antecedent of everything nao ?
phf: ah, in which case you preserve the idea of "edge in means possible transition"
mircea_popescu: in my mind, these two are not ambiguous, because correctly working graphaton would represent them respectively as
mircea_popescu: i thought so too, but then again this guy's leet py script beat my bash hackery outta water, so let's hear him out.
asciilifeform: thing is, i realized a while back that a leaf depending on other leaves at all, is abuse of v
phf: wait, i think i utterly confused the issue. one sec let me restate it
phf: the second meaning is, and that one comes up since we have multiple files to a patch, in order to press x i need both y and z.
mircea_popescu: oh, something like "either y or z could be pressed on top of x" yeah ok
asciilifeform: realize, v was something that i was specifically only able to conceive of because i am working with cultured folks who can be relied upon to not shit in the kitchen. operating vtron will always require a good measure of intelligence, wisdom, restraint...
phf: let's say you have x->y z->y. in the first case it means "i can press y on top of x" OR "i can press y on top of z"
mircea_popescu: define these terms ?
phf: so there are two issues with the thinking down that line
mircea_popescu: right. and in the example given, X->Z (or rather, Z > X) is not a connection to origin.
asciilifeform: there is no handy technopill against cycle
asciilifeform: for instance, and i warned of this from the beginning, v operators are trusted never to create cycles.
phf: i think the problem is "what does v graph supposed to communicate to the viewer"
mircea_popescu: i mean socially. whether we have a technical problem or not is part of the problem.
asciilifeform: suddenly the simplicity aspect would be lost.
mircea_popescu: iirc this was said back in the day, briefly.
shinohai: The official tmsr roll 'o duct tape.
mircea_popescu: i was thinking yest, "the solution here prolly is to forbid X containing multi As".
asciilifeform: i suggested at one point, to uncouple them
asciilifeform: the basic confusion comes from how we have two uncoupled things tied together with rope
mircea_popescu: back to the issue of substance. the idea is that whatever any current implementation may do, a situation where : 1) X takes A from 1 to 2 and B from 1 to 2 ; 2) Y takes A from 2 to 3 and B from 3 to 3 and 3) Z takes A from 2 to 4 and B from 3 to 4 should be represented as X->Y->Z only, and not as X->Y->Z, X->Z
phf: well, there's no issue with that graph presentation, because it produces correct press. it's just that graph is "meaningless" without the toposort. visualizing it doesn't answer any question beyond "this and that share a hash"
mircea_popescu: irl fragile parts like windows get a paint X on them, but here no such luck.
mircea_popescu: and as more people get involved this will be our bane, because it's really fucking difficult to correctly mark the walls and the scaffolding.
mircea_popescu: phf the thing remains, it's risky to take tmsr prototypes and extract meaning as if they were definitive canonical implementations of concepts. they aren't, yet.
phf: mircea_popescu: in the example that i gave, get_ante is the function that establishes graph edges
asciilifeform: this was clearly explained. then various folks tried to derive a means to auto sort leaves in some meaningful way
asciilifeform: well recall , my vtron was incomplete in the aspect where it assumed that any leaf was pressable per se
mircea_popescu: uh. wait, which was the one in py ?
asciilifeform will have to actually read mod6's thing before commenting further
mircea_popescu: i think mod6's might actually try to press on the basis of "has ONE antecedent"
asciilifeform: well phf was , i think, speaking of the basic vtron conceptually
asciilifeform: and yes, because they share a hash
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 14:15 phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
phf: that's not my definition by the way, that's how the graph is constructed inside v.py (v99.py:143 get_ante)
phf: so the fact that Z requires b 3 is irrelevant, since Z also requires a 1
phf: in v's definition of antecedent, the only requirement is "share a single hash"
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 04:11 mircea_popescu: phf> the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z << this is incorrect. the graph for that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464645 << pretty sure that's where there's a lot of confusion, even between what you're saying and what ascii is saying
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/637lm << unrelatedly, don't you want to stay at the cow cave? the akita house? perhaps the host of the kangaroo treehouse's beguiling pose will entice you into a rental. if none of those appeal, consider pug palace, cow boat, or the cottage cheese cottage
ben_vulpes: produces the same hash as the submitted file
mod6: ben_vulpes: is there a way to get around this?
mod6: Oh, and a cat! Which, in absolute fairness, was by far the most intelligent local present. << haha
mircea_popescu: back in ro glory days there were a few people in various ministries doing just that
asciilifeform: perhaps he might supply another when he wakes up.
asciilifeform: where there was not strict all-must-match.
mod6: im talking about the hash of the vpatch file itself.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i re-read what he's saying, i'm not even sure we actually grasp what the man is trying to say.
mod6: then see if you can press it successfully: `./v.pl p v v054-wFunk asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected.vpatch`
mod6: then copy the funk vpatch into patches dir
mod6: further, use `v' and ensure that your patches dir is up to date with the mirror. if you're not sure, just mv your patches dir to like 'patches.old' and then use 'init' to get the latest.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'no conflict' is fuzzy and introduces potential of subtle breakage << i agree with this view, for the reasons stated. same hash has to be the criterion.
mircea_popescu: phf> the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z << this is incorrect. the graph for that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
mircea_popescu: phf> but you then run into the issue is that the conflict might be introduced up the graph chain << fuck, waht !?
asciilifeform: the 'acres of crays', already quite famous then - space heaters!1111
asciilifeform: http://www.crypto.com/papers/export.txt << by same author, another vintage lol, re the idiocy of ruleoflaw
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: in other nonnyooz, http://www.crypto.com/papers/keylength.nsa.txt << lulzy vintage disinfo and its dissection
asciilifeform: and to the extent v can be coaxed into behaving outside of this envelope, it is incomplete
asciilifeform: l0l! largest wasp i've ever seen. barely fit through the vac hose!
ben_vulpes: again, if i recall correctly, asciilifeform's v will press all of the same-leaf-level patches as the given patch, /up to the given patch (inclusive)/ in alphabetical order
ben_vulpes: (and then the given patch)
ben_vulpes: as in, given this patchset, and this particular patch, apply all of the antecedents in the correct order.
ben_vulpes: it's only ever made sense to me in the context of pressing a specific patch.
phf: but if you want to talk about presses you have to look at the whole subgraph, hmm
phf: i need to just write this stuff up, but at this point i'm leaning towards the idea that you can't really make a better graph than "shares a hash", and all that communicates is that "this guy uses content from this other guy"
phf: v's graph says "these two patches share a common hash", but that doesn't mean that one can be pressed on top of another in isolation
asciilifeform: if it isn't, then it isn't complete.
asciilifeform: rather than a helpful feature.
asciilifeform: the fact that gnudiff will happily patch mismeshing file trees in certain circumstances is, from our pov, BRAINDAMAGE
phf: asciilifeform: no conflict doesn't have much to do with gnudiff. "conflict" in this case means that the patches contain at least TWO files one has shared hash, and the other one hash different hashes
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: concern is that embassy of 'neutral' country is a great place to betray the motherland to kgb. or the like.
ben_vulpes: what they have secret combudder/aerospace engineering programs?
asciilifeform: because - potentially - 'what if goes in but never comes out' - or the like.
asciilifeform is back from mega-expo at, among other places, ar embassy. very lulzy.
asciilifeform: Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (GNU/Linux) << if the submitter is to be believed !
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: the 'hash must match' is the only path to 'i meant what i said and i said what i meant, a walrus is certain one hundred percent'
asciilifeform: because gnudiff has no notion of semantics of the language, only dumb linear text
asciilifeform: 'same hash' is the correct v.
asciilifeform: the lily needs no guilding.
phf: but you then run into the issue is that the conflict might be introduced up the graph chain
phf: so you can do a single pass (and that's what my graph does) to eliminate all the edges that have conflicts
phf: X and Z share a's hash, but they have conflicting b hashes
phf: but you can't actually press from X->Z, even though they are "antecedents", because Z requires Y to be pressed first
phf: the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z
phf: but that doesn't guarantee a clean press as a graph transition. it only guarantees clean press when you topo sort the graph
mod6: i just tested trying to dump a key from an address not in the wallet and it says:
phf: note that the graph edge can actually have multiple different meanings. on mod6 graph, an edge means "patches share a common hash". on my graph edge means "patch can be applied on top of other patch without conflict"
shinohai: hmmm ... good question on the invalid key thing. That should be tested sure
phf: there were suggestion "just do X" and i would try them and discover that they wouldn't actually solve the problem
mod6: does it work everytime as long as the privkey is valid?
phf: mircea_popescu: that's what i was working on before the log issue became critical, and i might need to just write it up since i'm having hard time communicating the graph/press discrepancy
mod6: oh. hm. we better test the shit out of importing priv keys
mod6: not the end of the world. the whole thing needs a rewrite anyway.
mod6: thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/tickets.html
shinohai: mine will show previous balances based on time it is synced on the blockchain
mod6: shinohai: oh its showing way more than i actually have in the wallet. it's re-adding the change to the overall balance.
deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] John the mulch man. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/john-the-mulch-man/
mircea_popescu: i mean... graph's utility is mostly that it mirrors the press, no ?
mircea_popescu: phf shouldn't they not actually link then ?
mod6: if I use the raw patch from the deal press pukes on an unmatched hash. (a new feature! lol)
mod6: no worries, just demonstrating with that paste that I was able to rebase the patch, drop it into my 'patches' dir (notice the WILD annotation), and press cleanly.
mod6: and then if that works, I'll hand it off to you to see if you can go through the same motions
mod6: shinohai: that dpaste above was for you, should be good to go, need to recompile the orchastra with this included and test a bit...
mod6: how or why did you 'cut down' the antecedents?
mod6: instead of the ? = stuff
mod6: is there a base link to this page? should be something like trb.btcbase.org or something
mod6: you know what is cool though? that you have it so you can change graphs depending on the input -- "experimental" etc
mod6: but yah, otherwise that "stable" looks ok. tahnks for taking the time to check.
mod6: this is because i pin leafs to the top of the graph
phf: experimental doesn't press cleanly half the time, because of rebasing issue. for example it has polarbeard's patches that link into graph, but are all over the place with their press dependency
phf: so i suspect that whatever differences in press are a result of press algo. also funken is in an experimental set, and that's all the patches that i saw floating around that are not in the official release and not have been explicitly deprecated
phf: mod6: hey, i checked the state of patches, and http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable is identical to http://thebitcoin.foundation/v/patches/
mod6: that'll get me a good review of the code changes anyway.
mod6: you would have to have had all the latest pressed out, then patch the code in by hand
mod6: anyway, that's not the end of the world or anything.
shinohai: mod6: didja check the copy I sent? dunno if I did it right
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mod6: ;;later tell trinque so how can shinohai help build out wiki.deedbot.org? is there some web-code he can write? or perhaps just preparing articles?
a111: Logged on 2016-05-07 19:50 mircea_popescu: apparently there's a /download/ too but not linked from anywhere.
deedbot: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] The full in-house orchestra. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/05/07/the-full-in-house-orchestra/
mircea_popescu: apparently there's a /download/ too but not linked from anywhere.
mircea_popescu: motherfucker. what's with all this "blanking of names" bullshit. that's not how you do it. tits pic and home address.
mircea_popescu: to click... or not to click. this is the BingoBoingolema. whether tis safer in silence to suffer the links and twinkles of outrageous rotundity, or to take a stand against a sea of blubber and, by refusing to click, forever disown them.
deedbot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_Linux << Astra Linux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_Linux << Astra Linux — Википедия | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE6cvtuB-_g << Astra Linux Review - Russian Government/Military Debian-based ...
gribble: Error: We broke The Google!
j-dawg: yo dawg weighed them? dere fo' smellin' yo!
BingoBoingo: <mod6> haha, i wish i had some people around here who wanted to do that kinda labor forme. << You don't want to pay my "pout of service area" fee for visiting the tundra.
mircea_popescu: o motherfucker. sorry bout that.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "boosters". if there were, people'd just buy the booster and then that would become the basic game mechanic.
mircea_popescu: it got trampled underfoot the same day.
mircea_popescu: aaand eulora just got its first "we are the people" revolutionary movement.
trinque: yep I'm out too, gonna gorge on crawfish in the sun
shinohai: Not hard to setup, I just need a btc addy I can use for signing only. I tend not to reuse addys and misplace them >.<
mod6: then we can continue to round out that stuff as we go on.
mod6: nothing that has to get all accomplished today, or next week. but it'd be great to have something workable there by say. 9 weeks from now.
mod6: yeah. maybe if we run into trinque this weekend we can all discuss what some next things are there.
shinohai: Just takes time to put together
mircea_popescu: ah darn, it was my bad setup filtering out the wrong pms. sorry trinque false alamr, deedbot is fine indeed.
mod6: it's still in the ground breaking phase, with the wiki, but there's async work that could be done from time to time when you have it.
mod6: my goal is to move the good things off of the ba wiki and start getting our own setup.
mod6: shinohai: how'd you like to be integral into helping us round out the newly built deedbot wiki?
mircea_popescu: check out the outsized ego on this one. fucker thought he was like important or some shit ?
mircea_popescu: why the fuck does deedbot not answer in pm tho
shinohai: I can put list of trusted nodes, etc on my site if we need them. Not sure who said they were going to make a new wiki page. :/
mod6: oh good, thanks for reviewing those. there's a bunch of work in there we really need.
shinohai: Some of the foundation pages need tweaking too, I think I noticed old #b-a refs in them
mod6: is there some deedbot.org steps that rain1 can follow to get reg'd?
mod6: then rebase everything if i need, which it probably will
mod6: that'sactually something I'd like to do today if I can get the time: drop in that code into my test environment.
mod6: <+shinohai> Funny, I was looking at raw tx code the other day, since the key code has worked so well.<< ya!
mod6: and im having this lady show me how to jar/can them.
mod6: last year i had 22 tomato plants. this year im rotating the spot and probably will only do 10. but im gonna do a ton of cucumbers.
shinohai: Funny, I was looking at raw tx code the other day, since the key code has worked so well.
shinohai: I'm the same, I love taking care of my flowers and veggies but mowing, etc is not my forte.
mod6: we need to add more tickets to the list too if we can round out some of that stuff.
mod6: <+shinohai> And I've been using same guy for 3 years now, the price is just right and saves me the hassle. << this is what i need. i like to do the gardening but the stuff like mowing raking etc, i hardly can make time for.
mod6: so might hvae a new version of `t' for ya to look at sometime this weekend. i've been cleaning up the graph. trying to get the sagas colorized (which is complete), but I wanna get all the disconnected graphs printing in a certain wa.
shinohai: And I've been using same guy for 3 years now, the price is just right and saves me the hassle.
shinohai: Yeah I saw somewhere in the logs where you said t was almost ready for ml posting
mod6: hi, how goes it? are you in the wot yet? might be a good place to start.
mod6: Ah, very cool, just noticed the /topic.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform on the other hand the braindamage list padded considerably. closing in on 3k by now
BingoBoingo: Apparently a DHS officer broke today, writing up the story
gribble: Error: We broke The Google!
BingoBoingo: But for the bc,stats pming that is fine
BingoBoingo: I don't call ;;ticker --market all because I'm interested in what it reports at that moment in that moment. Mostly do it in case if that moment/day becomes interesting in the months that come.
BingoBoingo: I'll pm it for the time being. If we don't replace stats and ticker though it will be a pain not being able to link them in the logs from qntra when a story calls for it.
asciilifeform: 'Standards bureaucracies like the Linux Foundation (which consumed the Free Standards Group in its' ever-growing accretion disk years ago) happily document and add to this sort of complexity without ever trying to understand why it was there in the first place. 'Ken and Dennis leaked their OS into the equivalent of home because an RK05 disk pack on the PDP-11 was too small" goes whoosh over their heads.'
asciilifeform: 'The /bin vs /usr/bin split (and all the others) is an artifact of this, a 1970's implementation detail that got carried forward for decades by bureaucrats who never question _why_ they're doing things. It stopped making any sense before Linux was ever invented, for multiple reasons...'
trinque: can probably wrap the call to bc in some shell script that kills it after x seconds
asciilifeform: don't host it on the missile control box.
trinque: I didn't see that the thing can shell out
trinque: got the $google one in there today, will do others during next week
alikim: I have 4 computers and a life and I live with normal people, if you go on them like "I lost my pgp key, I lost my life" they suggest you visit a doctor.. or get laid and drunk in any order
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely no reason eulora can't have roguelike interface.
mircea_popescu: but yes, i support the notion.
mircea_popescu: the recouping your key.
alikim: I need to dig into how to run a copy of geometry on the client and that's too much for me, otherwise I could reuse network classes from the package and other stuff
danielpbarron: although that won't always be true, but certainly for the time being all that's needed is a console
danielpbarron: but you like the on winbl0wz part
alikim: no in what kind of shit the client is
deedbot: danielpbarron rated alikim 1 << Euloran who likes to hack the client on winbl0wz
alikim: so scream much energy... I found that key on another computer
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