asciilifeform: idea is that to get the desired answers, you have to properly reverse-engineer, and grasp, the bomb geometry.
asciilifeform: before dropping the bomb.
asciilifeform: weren't in the box
asciilifeform: iirc the way it worked was that the actual timing constants needed for yield Y, e.g., 'pop squib s1, then after t1 ns, squib s2... then after tN, run neutron gen tube for tN' ns, ...'
asciilifeform: the bomb.
asciilifeform: the params
asciilifeform: and aren't actually present in the stolen box.
asciilifeform: but idea being, you don't know the desired outputs.
mircea_popescu: the notion that you can make a) a physical object that b) does something and yet c) is safe in hands of adversary is so fucking lulzy.
asciilifeform: anyway it was the thing where the detonator timings are derived from passphrase that gets piped in through jack on the bomb chassis
asciilifeform: we had the thread!
mircea_popescu: in that drawing, "modern security features added to render useless in the wrong hands" prolly means 1kb rsa with exponent 35, amirite
asciilifeform: among sane folk it is small piece of the cost.
mircea_popescu: yeah, they used sheepskins.
mircea_popescu: do the calcs on it beging anywhere close to a critical core if bored one day. "electron gas" exactly.
mircea_popescu: there, the official free world reconstruction of "fogbank" : B4C foam with a xe-135 filling.
asciilifeform: (phun phakt, there are 2 wholly separate pyramids of 'clearance' in usa; DOE (atomic) and DOD (pentagon)
asciilifeform: which is why anyone with usg 'ts' reading the logz is technically in a state of sin, and subject to disrobing, unless specifically blessed by u.s. DOE 'q clearance' pope.
mircea_popescu: i wonder if the logs will end up classified now also.
mircea_popescu: and since it's gas-based, prolly heated by means of the gas being a neutron poison. xenon.
asciilifeform: the H-bomb. It symbolizes the banality of evil which is the essence of the whole H-bomb business. Workaday people doing workaday jobs building doomsday machines based on 1950's technology, while civilization marches bravely into the new millennium, oblivious to the death sentence imposed by a secret technology involving plastic foam. It calls to mind the most famous line from The Graduate, "One word: plastics."'
asciilifeform: Errata, which I dubbed "exploding styrofoam," the corresponding phrase would be "a gas of electrons." The implosion of the secondary is driven by matter pressure, not radiation pressure. Incidentally, Dow Chemical complained that Styrofoam is a trademark, like Xerox, and that nuclear weapons do not contain Styrofoam. Point conceded; the foam is generic. ... I like the idea of a nuisance material, plastic foam, as the real secret of
asciilifeform: 'In the one-page Errata in the December 1979 issue, I explained that the turkey in the oven is a plastic "channel filler" which captures x-ray energy and explodes with enormous force, purely as the result of getting very hot very fast (ten million degrees in half a microsecond). In the original H-bomb article, I had described the conditions inside the radiation channel in terms of "a gas of photons." For my revised explanation in the
mircea_popescu: the grinch.
mircea_popescu: you know what the literary model for this is ?
asciilifeform: because they are annoying.
asciilifeform: specifically to cut off the parnassus.
mircea_popescu: how familiar you are with making axes vs making aerogels does not establish if making axes or making aerogels is "magic", it just establishes how familiar you are with them.
mircea_popescu: yeah, apart because of how familiar you are with either.
asciilifeform: this would happen if he lived in some heavenly vacuum where the purpose of the axe is entirely unclear
mircea_popescu: the same sort of thought process is involved (for him) when he decides to make the axe at all and when he decides to make singlespoked flanged mace.
mircea_popescu: even your "primitive man won't stray" argument is broken, as you stop midway. a) the point of his following your recipe is that he got off lazy butt ; if he doesn't, he doesn't AT ALL. why would he get off lazy butt JUST AS FAR as you imagine he would and no further ?
asciilifeform: (communicate to intergalactic whateverthefucks)
asciilifeform: well yes, if i were in the position of the hero of that one asimov story where he is trying to communicate what humans look like over radio, but he has no idea even which way their displays scan, or what the hell they use to decode signal in the first place,
mircea_popescu: not even the fucking axe is "fully technologized"
mircea_popescu: (note how you keep trying to brace yourself against unstated convention, "of course you would understand this is not the item because that'd breach symmetry and we have a convention re symmetry")
mircea_popescu: but you communicated axe and i ended up with a flanged mace. http://www.therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c1306b.jpg << is this your axe ?
mircea_popescu: but this is universally the case.
asciilifeform: when you ~think~ you have reduced the item to a recipe of dead words
asciilifeform: (whether real, or fictional in whole or part, i obviously do not know)
mircea_popescu: but the implications for your position are pretty lulzy, wouldn't you say ?
asciilifeform: anyway i was not there, and cannot say how much the entire story was simply a cover for embezzling half a bil usd
asciilifeform: and eventually had to reverse-engineer old samples and found the missing 'gotta have trace elements x, y, z'
asciilifeform: they spent, supposedly, a few 100 mil, massive failures
asciilifeform: but ~no longer~ present in 2000s when they resumed production
mircea_popescu: ah and they can't make it now ?
asciilifeform: as it turned out to have a hidden dependence on an impurity which was present in the feedstock at the time
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: story is, the particulars of making just-that (and it had to be just-that, on account of the detonation process) foam, were never fully written down
mircea_popescu: gotta get the logsearch already.
asciilifeform: (recall the 'fogbank' incident ?)
mircea_popescu: anwyay, there's not so much difference between what we're saying. "make it repeatable" as you say is part of parcel of "economy of scale" as i say.
asciilifeform: well the damascene pattern is there. but no, i did not personally buy these swords and go back in time to 14th c and fight with them for 20y
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's not much to go on when one believes there's more substance than marketing to that "damascus" claim.
asciilifeform: to technologize is to break apart magic and make it repeatable - e.g., damascus steel was magic (gotta be in the right time, right place, use iron from here-and-here, and whisper the incantations yer grandfather taught you for good measure, and be of pure aryan blood, and ....) but then somebody builds mass spectrometer and today you can buy a damascus knife from helsinki
mircea_popescu: and by this measure, a good chunk of what you regard one is really the other and back again.
mircea_popescu: in fact, a useful heuristic to distinguish magic and technology, is that as the stakes increase, magic gets harder and technology easier to do.
asciilifeform: thus far thread seems to compress to a very discouraging http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-19#1468598 ; mircea_popescu: 'me an' the other wizards got vastly moar powerful!1111' asciilifeform: 'waiwut how' mircea_popescu: 'yer puny brain will never apprehend the smallest part of it'
mircea_popescu: and the day choir.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well the problem with this choir is that it's made of apparent 16 yo girls who spend the night doing all manner of kinky stuff
asciilifeform: but on the other hand it is not wholly impossible to write something meaningful and useful re mathematical creativity.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu is going into 'mathematical creativity has never been and likely will never be technologized' he is preaching to choir.
mircea_popescu: then you can say like the butcher that moved into village and introduced hygiene, "i am a better surgeon than the guys in paris"
mircea_popescu: it's not surprisingly easy to do it usefully. it's very easy to do it when no one's doing it and there's a lot of low hanging fruit,
mircea_popescu: it's a technology, right ? by ytour notions of tech, math is the supertech. so then ?
mircea_popescu: but try it prospectively, like a math teacher on a grad program. pick which kids do good work and which waste their lives.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and how do you distinguish the theorems for which he WILL BE famous from the ones for which he will not be ?
asciilifeform: and yes, circus weight lifter has strength and he cannot teach the strength
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu routinely taught it to the gurlz
asciilifeform: that is is useful to distinguish the 2 ?
mircea_popescu: point in fact, most of what you do is not communicable to "filthy white man". though from what you're saying i take it next you go renting you'll rouse them from their beds to teach lisp ?
asciilifeform: and yeah in some jungle there is witch doctor whose wonderful spirit-summoning tech is not communicable to the filthy white man.
mircea_popescu: haha no. until then technology MAY be communicable.
asciilifeform: but until then technology is a communicable thing.
mircea_popescu: and how do you know this ? other than, it happening to be your religion.
mircea_popescu: and eating the same food, so one'd expect molybdenum to equalize. but...
asciilifeform: as in, sitting right there.
asciilifeform: all that the inuit gurl was told.
asciilifeform: or does mircea_popescu propose that i could not possibly perform the match trick even if told all.
asciilifeform: and i won't find out what molybdenum is for another 2000 yrs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is a much much better example in your own experience. recall the matchsticks ?
mircea_popescu: so you're a little miffed, and suspect us of collusion. so then we capture a random inuit woman, and i spend some time with her,
asciilifeform: there is a less comical example of this, historically - damascus steel.
mircea_popescu: you think i'm joking, but presently i demonstrate : i put a finger on my nose, and frown, and fart, and soon enough there it is, another one.
mircea_popescu: and i explain to you that i discovered a way to create them by farting.
mircea_popescu: now then, after a moment of this, you wish to know how the fuck is it possible that these animals live here ?!
asciilifeform: on the basis that englishmen of 1880 could have built it if it were explained to them.
mircea_popescu: on the basis of what ?
asciilifeform: nevertheless, meiji jp 'dutch studies' scholar builds steamship. etc
mircea_popescu: so then reactor is a technology ?
mircea_popescu: and the important point here is that no agent may be universal ; and no universal may have agency. which is why god can't act.
mircea_popescu: fine then, let it be so. to me the difference is that i perceive the "you" to be universalizing in your statement.
mircea_popescu: that's the point. technology is technology only in context.
asciilifeform: the making of prussian-style soldiers, folks with very narrow role in life and bonsaikittened brain, is also a technology.
asciilifeform: naturally, it is not his role in life. but their hardware is so flimsy that if cut off from the mothership for a month, they will die.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but in a discussion of indian tribes, the smaller trbie with guns that wipes the larger tribe with tomahawks HAS, in fact, deployed the technology.
asciilifeform: when he ~makes own rifle~ - he has the tech.
asciilifeform: he does not 'have the tech'
asciilifeform: point here is that technology is an informational thing. two folks, with same materials, will come to different fates, because one knows that magnetic field induces electric current in moving conductor, and the other - does not
mircea_popescu: yes, there's madmen and there's people, and technology need not be describable to madmen to be technology.
mircea_popescu: but once yo uspeak of madman you're either granting my point or else going full "no true scotsman"
asciilifeform: there is prolly a madman to whom every animal with 4 legs is dog.
mircea_popescu: and why the fuck not ?
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as it allowed the swedes to pretend to being a nation for absolutely no other discerinble reason,
mircea_popescu: and what's wrong with that ? are you derriding the pulley system on the grounds of how trite the rope is ?
asciilifeform: fish in the scania was also technology ?
mircea_popescu: so then. accessibility is no sort of criteria for technology.
mircea_popescu: you'll be lucky if you ever release 1% of a rather large inmate population.
mircea_popescu: dollars to donuts, if you arrest everyone who ever said "quantum computing" on an webpage, and keep them locked up in solitary until such a time they can explain what it means, scientifically,
mircea_popescu: are you of the same notion ?
mircea_popescu: and there exists a lobby there proposing that for this reason, it is not really, properly technology.
mircea_popescu: tell you what, something as finely technical as, the lorenz contraction, still is not "universally accessible". in fact, it is outside of the purview of ~all us schoolchildren.
mircea_popescu: because, as per the discussion of "ideas" : in my hand it's an idea, in derp'\s hand is nothing, for derp may not have ideas.
asciilifeform: then we have 'my hoodoo got stronger, stfu' ?
mircea_popescu: ah, but no, i do not accept this requirement that the DESCRIPTION be universally accessible either.
mircea_popescu: just as long as you admit to an increase of maximal-possible-mojo per capita, and to a decrease in marginal utility per capita, you're basically admitting the premises.
asciilifeform: i can readily believe that mircea_popescu's magic got stronger, sure. but did he singlehandedly surplus all of the obsolete meatbags ? or did somebody else's magic also get stronger, and if so how..?
mircea_popescu: the very point being that it's not universally accessible.
mircea_popescu: well no, not necessarily. but on the other end of the same chasm, it may not be a case of "either this leverage is universally accessible or stfu"
asciilifeform: this was a testable hypothesis re: observables.
asciilifeform: iirc the thread was about 'leverage increased, ergo we are awash in surplus people'
mircea_popescu: it ended up illustrated with minutia, but it is not the illustrative minutia.
mircea_popescu: the particular is not a public matter. but the thing we were discussing, ie, leverage, and its impact of citizenship, and the way this drags out citizenship out of the commoner's reach, is.
asciilifeform: well is it, to use mircea_popescutronic analysis, a matter 'for the forum' or 'for the gynaecaeum' ?
mircea_popescu: what i strictly care about is, doth it or doth it not make it easier for me to send fifty men out of their houses, behead their offspring and claim their women.
mircea_popescu: i don't give the first inkliong of a shit as to whether it could "rightfully" be called technical, inovation, or pornography. that's a concern for kids debating superman-vs-spiderman encounters.
asciilifeform: yeah but it is also possible that mircea_popescu benefits from scratching his toes just-so when he wakes up. this is not a technical advance as generally understood, because the recipe is useless to anybody else.
mircea_popescu: ah but you see, this is thevery thing we're discussing. ~I~ benefit from it, and it empowers me. that'd be what i'd care about.
asciilifeform: here in the land of 50% tax.
mircea_popescu: well, they've been sticking to it for a decade+ by now.
asciilifeform: but these transitioned TO technical advances once cemented in place
asciilifeform: '90s post-sov govs did not have the actual option of mega-tax.
asciilifeform: but the reason i dun see the 'let's 3% tax' as a technical advance, is that it was not a deliberate act, but a concession to collapse of inca empire. it was done ~to~ the folks who did it, like an earthquake.
mircea_popescu: right ? so you're part of the 55th civilisation to discover cellphones. do you care about the other 54 ?
mircea_popescu: context matters, who the fuck cares what lenin's nep did.
asciilifeform: and i can't fathom it being the first.
mircea_popescu: (to be specific : the idea that "small corps are the driver of economy, and should get massive tax breaks" is entirely past 30 years.)
mircea_popescu: i also count all SORTS of things, including 3% corp tax in romania, for instance. wasn't there in 86
asciilifeform: all i see is complexity cancer, on which the usual scamvultures feast.
asciilifeform: what did n-way leveraged whateverthefucks improve ?
asciilifeform: and quite like ~all the other usg academics i spent most of my working life working with.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-19#1468579 << lulzily, shortly after i wrote this i actually met the man.
Framedragger: re. golang, i understand the sentiment yeah
mircea_popescu: but should one be able to answer "use this thing"... well then. different matter altogether.
mircea_popescu: can't quite answer "get fucked" to something like that, not unless you're prepared to follow through and holocaust them all.
mircea_popescu: for instance, i'm deliberately keeping my ongoing "war on the web" as far as attacking forums goes on a very low roar. not that i couldn't scale it up and end ~any web-based forum, owing to the incredible incompetence of the scammers involved. but then, millions of derps would in a voice go "ok so these are bad, what should we do ?"
mircea_popescu: this is where one writes code as a young man that then makes them famous for rest of life, the c and whatnot of our time. you see what i mean ?
mircea_popescu: plenty of other good ones ( asciilifeform you recall reporting on that group pushing 20 year old schweizer as "wai of footure" at some conference ? ), but the more important point is, that this is a fine field for innovation as it stands. it's very far from "settled science", where the logical move is to simply import the universally accepted library and move on.
mircea_popescu: it's not very much clear there's anything much there besides the usual marketing crapolade. i dunno how familiar you are with this phenomena, but let me dig a fine example out of the log.
mircea_popescu: that aside, the IDEA of ipfs, as far as can be distinguished, is not necessarily bad.
mircea_popescu: anyway, Framedragger golang is not liked here because we don't own it, and we don't like usg.google more than we like usg.anything, and because it seems quite well engineered to work as a baited hook for the usg chump works.
mircea_popescu: sort of like how qm is thermodynamics for grown ups
asciilifeform: (it is the one science that will never stop!11111)
asciilifeform: realize that 'golang' is not simply a language, but a set of libraries that is used by pretty much 100% of the extant soft implemented therein
mircea_popescu: back to the arts : no, not really. finance, believe it or not. and other things. few of which are "palpable" in the sense that farm derp could put hand on
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform right. which is my point - if you don't like golang pretend there isn't one. you can't invalidate design by "bad implementation" wtf.
asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> you wish to think in terms of your chosen art, which is meaningless. it's not always the same art that provides the additional leverage. <<< pretty much everything other than the infernal machines has been going to hell, visibly to naked eye. so which art would it be that mircea_popescu was thinking of ?
mircea_popescu: you can implement shit in whatever the hell you want. the reference implementation for cramer-shoup is in malbolge.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dude i'm going to make the REFERENCE IMPLEMENTATION of your next girlfriend in golang and what'll you do then.
mircea_popescu: was this the merkle data thing ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger doesn't mean much more than, "the correct path is to take a decent crypto lib, a distributed-hashtable-storage thing from one of the p2p torrent tools, and make a real social media app"
Framedragger: > There's just no life in this idea as originally thought out, a browser thing.
mircea_popescu: you wish to think in terms of your chosen art, which is meaningless. it's not always the same art that provides the additional leverage.
mircea_popescu: the amount of work you CAN replace has been monotonously increasing since about then, mind.
mircea_popescu: then in 1660... one's either a noble or not worth the mention, and this reduces to a few percent again.
mircea_popescu: the year is now 660, and we're in londinum. a man can replace the work of maybe two, give or take. the mean is one-something, and "everyone" is someone.
mircea_popescu: so, year is 160 ad, we're in rome. maximally, a man can replace the work of about fifty or so men, give or take. the mean of this is say 25. about 10% of the population can reach this, and lo and behold - about 10% of the empire's population is citizens!
mircea_popescu: as the bar to the individuation is fixed ~the mean of the leverage, so obviously as that increases the sigma-ness associated increases also (by about the square root ?)
mircea_popescu: as the maximal leverage avaialble to the individual increases, the % of things crawling out of cunts (which, recall, run perl) that may ever individuate decreases.
asciilifeform: these folks got developmentally frozen.
mircea_popescu: this is also not creation. it is the result of expanding complexity.
mircea_popescu: the truth of demographics is that underage males are mostly defective by mass. this is unfixable.
mircea_popescu: nah. i disagree. usa was first to pretend like underage male fuckwards are "worker bees", which only can be meaningfully attempted for ~a certain kind~ of software. what we reference here as the web.
asciilifeform: usa was really first to mass-produce entirely defective workerbees, and afaik they are limited to software
asciilifeform: the more interesting part is that the actual workerbees doing the gruntwerk do ~not~ think this
mircea_popescu: the very deeply ignorant approach is rather notable, to my eyes. derps seriously think that's how genetics works, much like a baby perceiving his environment as a photographic still rather than a dynamic equilibrium and so faceplanting self once an hour
asciilifeform: but yeah, when substance s is something that kills plant p but not plant p', and therefore may have been secreted by some past p', odds are 'it's happened before'
mircea_popescu: in another view, what's nailing monsanto is called "so you thought you were smart, eh ?". heck, plants've been here a while. odds are whatever random unwashed derp in our colonies comes up with, they've seen before.
asciilifeform: one of the interesting things is that monsanto used to be an actual 'golden age of usa' chemical co. e.g., produced first commercial LED.
asciilifeform: the thing nailing monsanto has a name, 'epigenetics'
mircea_popescu: apparently phf gotta handcrank them, and when he sleeps...
mircea_popescu: incidentally speaking of https://voat.co/p/partnerprogram anyone knows the voat people ? i think it's conceivable mpex might list them...
mircea_popescu: spoeaking of which, found a SPLENDID leather collar with metal spikes in local pet shop. top notch stuff, 12 bux.
mircea_popescu: i did find what i wanted in the end, though.
BingoBoingo: You know, I bet the local farm supply store would have had a better ball gag than all those porno stores...
mircea_popescu: if i had any sort of local confirmation or somesuch actual meat. but i've not been investing in connecting to the local agros who the shit cares, and obv el presidente'd rather die than give up this one, and i'm noit about to start torturing elected presidents just yet.
BingoBoingo: I will in a couple hours, gotta get a string trimmer and re-piece. Or you know you could do the tie ins from Argentina bsns perspective.
mircea_popescu: or maybe save for a later re-piece, if it sells or something. eitherway.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i guess we retrospectively discovered what a major point of discussion in the recent bahamas-macri meeting was. and the local socialist fucktards thought they ran off and hid in the countryside because of them. lelz. "reddit we diddit!!1"
BingoBoingo: Still, the point remains Argentina's only strategy is to void the monsanto glyphosate resistance patents locally
mircea_popescu: anyway, looking at their stock the news was first heard by sophisticated investors q3 2015, ie recently.
BingoBoingo: Right, kinda the pharma model where having a pipeline of things to pattent matters more than anything else.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo bacteria are a whole other game.
mircea_popescu: except you know, with much better pr than the usual pinksheet.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yeah, monsanto is very much apple'd. the original idea seemed promising, in the 90s. sometime years ago, dunno exactly when cuz they've been keeping it secret and i never cared that much, they found out it's a doomed entreprise. ever since then... MON's been pretty much a stock scam.
mircea_popescu: med. 3. keep doing this, depending on life form, MANY times. at least a dozen for plants, for instance, they express fast. mammals, 100s.
mircea_popescu: but yes, for any republican bioscientists in the making : the scientific way to study something like plant resistance to X is to : 1. create the first generation test environment. this means a witness, and a number of exposures (maybe dosed variously, with other substances too, etc). 2. create next generation environment. this means, your experiment now subdivides into as many experiments equal to 1 as there were tests perfor
BingoBoingo: Dicamba's bundled into a bunch of other commercial off the shelf consumer herbicide products already.
BingoBoingo: Anyways what I found especially lulzy was putting glyphosate and dicamba in the same bottle and calling it innovation.
BingoBoingo: Well, and some of them like fucking horseweed seemed to have never really cared much about glyphosate. Then there's Japanese knotweed which glyphosate will kill, but only if sprayed during the first new moon after the autumn equinox.
mircea_popescu: shows teh sort of "scientific research" that happens in the us based labs for the lulzy sham it is. "oh, we treated a crop of grass with this vial and the grass died. ERGO IT WORKS!!! we studied genetics under lamarck et all, don't understand much of anything. what do you mean, cultivate the survivors and see, what do you mean need a chain of witness blocks going down many generations ?!?!?!"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i suppose that must be the explanation, "carried resistance". ie, they had it, genetically, but not normally expressed. until environment changed and so genetic expression changed to fit.
shinohai: I read "toxic Ether"
mircea_popescu: incidentally i have nfi how that worked so well for the weeds. pretty impressive.
mircea_popescu: nice qntra btw. and yes monsanto is fucked - the projections were for weed resistance to appear in centuries. it showed up within a coupla short decades. this puts the practical utility of their "genetic research" in serious doubt. in fact they've closed down most "general" projects, focusing on a coupla more promising line, after which it's ~the end.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://65.media.tumblr.com/c068547109830b95fb0f57bbe9657a8c/tumblr_o6xqe2V4B51vn1bdyo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: then #trilema, it's like mechaworld. 95% computer by mass.
mircea_popescu: you know thinking about it... each irc channel is like whatever, a guy walking down the street. maybe carrying a bag of groceries or a skateboard or w/e.
mircea_popescu: its announced presence has rearranged my head, it's really the correct solution for the long sought for job market thing.
mircea_popescu: the blank verse funkenclub.
mircea_popescu: crypto goes in, poetry goes out. no fucking law against poetry, is there.
mircea_popescu: by the time this is actually needed, all that'll be about as interesting as soviet rubles.
shinohai: Sadly, in the land-of-the-not-so-free 'tis illegal to send encrypted comms with HAM license. :/
mircea_popescu: in truth, if we end up that stretched there's prolly going to be some adjustments made. like - daily blocks.
shinohai: Radio was like the first thing I was interested in as a child.
mircea_popescu: for the record : all the various german terms, funkmeister, funkspielen, etc, are derived off how you say radioing in german, ie, funk (hence telefunken). the reason it's called "spark" is because they needed a name back when sparkgap was the way. and so...