mircea_popescu: the secret i'm sharing is that there's no monogamous relationship with reality : looking at any of them nude doesn't end your relationship. with any of them.
mircea_popescu: "haven't these rednecks figured out anarchy dun work already!!11"
mircea_popescu: i bet you whatever you want just as we sit here there's some dude flying some desk somewhere (that used to be mahogany, and used to have plants around! ahh cold war!) to whom we seem the very perennial rats
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway ; i dun specifically mean to piss on your lone-flying-fortress parade. but you gotta appreciate it's a stylistical preference for interpreting reality, rather than actual reality.
mircea_popescu: now it's pretty much the "supermarket" norm innit
asciilifeform: did they have nitrate panic in mircea_popesculand ?
BingoBoingo: Just pump all the anhydrous amonia you can into the soil, topgrowth is the only thing salable anyways.
mircea_popescu: when i was growing up all sorta amateur dieteticians of the 3rd age were all liek "oh, eat that, it's good for you, has phosophorus"
shinohai: My shit glows in the dark due to high phosphorous content.
BingoBoingo: Depends on the phosphorous content of the shit? Interesting restrictions on phosphorous containing fertilizers are being placed out of concern for "water quality" at a time when "peak phosphor" is a quiet concern...
asciilifeform: i dun see the relevance of where i put rubbish pastebins to anything.
mircea_popescu: the way concrete works is you have to swallow the concrete provided, not try and invent what at the time seems like "he won't be able to provide PINK CONCRETE!111"
mircea_popescu: it might be endearing to the woman interested in you, but it says not one inch about shit.
mircea_popescu: that you take the same lump of shit, make "different" (to you!) figurines out of it and then call one fred and the other alison is not substantively interesting you realise.
mircea_popescu: this is ~exactly like the one where you "can't" build your blog rather than obama's platform, because "commute" or whatever the reason was.
deedbot: [Qntra] Spread Between Chinese And Other Exchanges Settles With Dollar Lower Against Bitcoin - http://qntra.net/2016/06/spread-between-chinese-and-other-exchanges-settles-with-dollar-lower-against-bitcoin/
mircea_popescu: that's the large thread : that whatosever shall happen, it will serve the state partly and the republic fully ; without exception and without respite but apparent and momentary.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 23:59 asciilifeform: did mircea_popescu predict that other nas gadgets will be found and i - that they won't ? or sumthinglikethat?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1475036 << leaving aside various minor points, the large standing dispute currently is whether whatever bullshit "control technology" has or has not meaningful impact on "free computing". and you're, unrepentently to the point of denial, on the wrong side of it.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 23:50 ben_vulpes: aight maybe some naggum as well. but there are extended discussions of political time in the logs.
asciilifeform: (like every other known device that does >= pogo)
asciilifeform: did mircea_popescu predict that other nas gadgets will be found and i - that they won't ? or sumthinglikethat?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 22:34 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474921 << did i miss the part where those 20 lines were all prefixed with turns out mp's ideas about the evolution of the world were right ; and mine wrong ; and i really should chillax on the paranoia score ?
ben_vulpes: aight maybe some naggum as well. but there are extended discussions of political time in the logs.
Framedragger: ah hence the 'political' term. (naggum).
ben_vulpes: "much less figure out how daylight savings time factors into the problem. and how in which timezone."
ben_vulpes: "because i do not have time before our delivery deadline to figure out the millisecond offset between utc and n number of other timezones, depending on how thoroughly we want to test this."
ben_vulpes: said something along the lines of "and i have completely punted on the issue of testing whether or not events happen in the right timezone for the user. the testing strategy is to set the user tz to utc, the system tz to utc, and make assertions about when events fire."
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 22:33 ben_vulpes: he also got the order wrong
asciilifeform: also the jp photo is better, use that one.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh they'll shoot all of me here soon enuff.
mircea_popescu: do you know why there's no alf in russia, alf ? because they shot all of you. for this reason.
mircea_popescu: motherfcuker.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474937 <<< we gonna have to wait for the book or are you putting it all on blog ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474921 << did i miss the part where those 20 lines were all prefixed with turns out mp's ideas about the evolution of the world were right ; and mine wrong ; and i really should chillax on the paranoia score ?
ben_vulpes: he also got the order wrong
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 20:25 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474528 << goddamnit: read article; fail to parse word ('edulcorously'); realise only two google results are (1) ben_vulpes uttering the word, and (2) this trilema artcile (the following day); end up checking roots of "edulcorate" (make something more acceptable or palatable) http://imgur.com/85Iy0el
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474899 << it's been in use as a bona fide english term (which it is) on trilema, as the last repository of actual english (which it is). so there!
asciilifeform: they are not sold with disks.
asciilifeform: quite likely that, like pogo, these can be had cheaper in some qty.
asciilifeform: mod6: the test unit i showed you cost me fiddybux exactly.
mod6: whats the approx cost on a deal like this? $100?
mod6: ah sure, looks like the same board.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> (recall, block index is RETARDEDLY kept resident in ram, being first leak) << yeah, getting these into `t' for the trb project will be a big main priority once i get tbot deployed.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> the two SEPARATE leaks that we identified will have to die. << werd
asciilifeform: the two SEPARATE leaks that we identified will have to die.
asciilifeform: because 256M will die in merely twice as long as the 128M dies in (what was it, 8 hours?)
mod6: anyway, this seems easier as one could just rip the drive out, load up the full orchastra on the disk, drop it back in and you're ready to go.
asciilifeform: yeah that's the 1.
mod6: next to the ethernet port chassis, the black thing looked like a jumper. the only jumper i see is next to C149
mod6: oh nm. thought they were jumpers until i zoomed in
asciilifeform: the empty hole appears to be for one of those bicycle lock things.
asciilifeform: astonishingly, there is even a jumper.
asciilifeform: (in case this was not clear from the pics, the thing can actually handle ~2~ sata disks - one inside box, one out)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: http://blog.livedoor.jp/hide_system/archives/2013-02-05.html << suggests that this is same board, and 1 of the 4pin pads, as usual, is tty.
asciilifeform: and i dun feel like regreasing the cpu
asciilifeform: i also did not bother to examine the underside of mp, all of the connector pads appear to be on top
asciilifeform: sorry'bout the duped 1st pic
asciilifeform: there is not even a close-up pcb photo
asciilifeform: mod6: this thing appears to be virgin earth, in the sense that no one has afaik published serial port pinouts, etc.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> including the uncommon mircea_popescuine one. << sweet
asciilifeform: ^ this was the non-systemd fork of debian, iirc.
asciilifeform: 'Devuan, the once devil-may-care total fork of Debian, once linked to virulent internet sexism and gamer-gate affiliated image forums by Debian Developer Russel Coker, has mulled the option of enacting a Code of Conduct when one of its female members was insulted...'
asciilifeform: in the standard package, even.
asciilifeform: including the uncommon mircea_popescuine one.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/ was a nice read, thanks. chance, right.
asciilifeform: mod6: unlike pogo, thing is a HEAVY metal brick, with the drive on inside
asciilifeform: they are available in usa through crapazon.
asciilifeform: ^ 256M ram, sata and esata, 1GB ether, fiddybux
asciilifeform: in other nyooz:
Framedragger: "They were bored to death even with their own thoughts and dreams, bored with the attack they expected momentarily. They were bored of being bored, and too sick and tired of being bored to even consider not being boring. It's just not possible to do, it exceeds human capacity. Turns out that when confronted with the meaningless pointlessness of endlessness, the inadequacy of the muchly lauded human faculty of creativity becomes readily a
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 15:33 mircea_popescu: Framedragger no, it's just luck, there's no rational solution out of the problem. see http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/ for the discussion if haven't already.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474528 << goddamnit: read article; fail to parse word ('edulcorously'); realise only two google results are (1) ben_vulpes uttering the word, and (2) this trilema artcile (the following day); end up checking roots of "edulcorate" (make something more acceptable or palatable) http://imgur.com/85Iy0el
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Yeah WoL was TaT's last stand though he popped up occasionally later for events like http://qntra.net/2015/10/well-connected-bezzle-health-startup-theranos-collapsing/#comment-31763
mircea_popescu: i recall the fellow not digesting my pointing out to him that his calls, opinions ideas etc on some topic he had nothing to do weren't interesting ; dunno what exactly the adherence was. maybe this, yeah.
mircea_popescu: there must be extant screenshots somewhere
mircea_popescu: yeah, it wasn't bad really. i guess in the end didn't gather enough momentum and we agreed to end it ; but not without regret
mircea_popescu: yeah, it's actually in the logs. mike_c had some theories about bitbet and how it could be better, we tried it out, on the conway cell thing. he made a very pretty looking game out of it.
Framedragger: what was war of life? (http://trilema.com/2014/the-twinheaded-announcer-announces/ ) ? a kind of game of life with bitcoin betting
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/06/forbes-revises-theranos-ceos-estimated-wealth-to-near-zero/ << Theranos WAS interesting
mircea_popescu: "The vulnerability further bypassed Microsoft Enhanced Mitigation Experience Toolkit (EMET) protections. No comments from Microsoft were available at the time of this article." for maximal lulz.
deedbot: [Qntra] Forbes Revises Theranos CEO's Estimated Wealth To Near Zero - http://qntra.net/2016/06/forbes-revises-theranos-ceos-estimated-wealth-to-near-zero/
asciilifeform: in other nyooz of the ridiculous, http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-HACKING-COMPUTER-SYMBOLICS-MACIVORY-LISP-MACHINE-KEYBOARD-OVERLAY-/322130142066
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 18:14 asciilifeform: shinohai: http://qntra.net/2016/06/bespoke-windows-exploit-on-the-market/#comment-60243
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474857 <<< The sarcasm of "absolutely genuine" was lost on asciilifeform perhaps.
mircea_popescu: https://oeis.org/A105165 << turns out it's actually pretty famous. famous enough for its own strings in the oeis.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: usaschwitz, like all other slave empires, is ultimately powered by nondischargeable personal debt
asciilifeform: shinohai: http://qntra.net/2016/06/bespoke-windows-exploit-on-the-market/#comment-60243
asciilifeform: if you die 'of old age', the medical racket gets it
mircea_popescu: getting back to base phi : two machine words together, 64 bit each, encode a huge chunk of cannonical phinary numbers ; and the machine wouldn't even have to know that's what it's doing.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> the life policy carries a stated beneficiary << AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA Welcome to USSA. Beneficiary gets life insurance policy if they took it out on deceased themselves, but otherwise in USistani brokeness many times must first pass "DOes estate have expenses test"
mircea_popescu: in the case here, you determine it from its notation.
mircea_popescu: there seems to me there's a field to graze upon here ; without any such sillyness as "basis is cipher"
mircea_popescu: i dunno the whole thing. the observation however stands that just as there's a way to verify a number ISNT irrational, by the same way in the same manner for the same reason the reverse can also be verified. and there are indeed very hard (as it is the case here, harder than np-complete) problems to do with such numbers, arbitrarily chosen.
deedbot: [Qntra] Bespoke Windows Exploit On The Market - http://qntra.net/2016/06/bespoke-windows-exploit-on-the-market/
asciilifeform: then why fuck around with bases ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is more in the 'arab caesar cipher' vein, of cheating self.
mircea_popescu: admittedly my thinking being that it's time to stop trying to be clever and "cheat", seeing how the only cheated to date is self.
asciilifeform: this is a pistol that shoots out the wrong end. the only one it makes life harder for is the user.
asciilifeform: e.g., the symbol sqrt(2).
mircea_popescu: it doesn't seem there;s going to be so much cheating here.
mircea_popescu: yes, but as long as the notation is in an irrational base,
asciilifeform: ^ ought to have found the old l0gz
mircea_popescu: nono, we were discussing hard problems and i pointed out the russian guy with the addition
asciilifeform: i recall there was thread where mircea_popescu suggested the use of nonstandard bases to frustrate enemy per 'specificity of diddling' principle.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't this fit the more useful later definition ?
asciilifeform: poor specification (and moreover deceitful sleigh-of-hand from the usual suspects) is bad for crypto.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so here's what i'm thinking : obviously the equivocation between "NP hard" in the sense of "it is not proven this set is empty of NP hard edges" and NP hard in the sense of "this set CONSISTS of NP-hard elements" is bad for crypto.
a111: Logged on 2014-06-11 00:49 asciilifeform: 'At some point during this period, however, I realized that the entire problem was a complete and utter pseudo-problem. ... So I am very confident that neither of these techniques, neither mine nor Sacco and Vanzetti's, has ever been used in practice. There is no need for them, there has never been any need for them, and there will never be any need for them. And this was quite obvious in 1993.'
a111: Logged on 2014-06-11 00:49 asciilifeform: 'My Navrozov moment, of course, was when I approached one of the two - Sacco, I think - and attempted to have an intellectual discussion of this realization. The story is basically the same as Navrozov's, so it would be boring to repeat, but basically I came away with the feeling that I'd told someone his Sicilian grandmother liked to get drunk and fuck her own goats.'
a111: Logged on 2014-06-11 00:49 asciilifeform: 'Which, in fact, I had. Because I'd essentially told him his research was fraudulent. The fact that my research was also fraudulent, and that neither of ours was particularly noteworthy in that regard, did not matter. And why should it? Others' crimes cannot excuse your own.'
a111: Logged on 2014-06-11 00:48 asciilifeform: 'Sacco and Vanzetti came up with an entirely different solution to the slow-MMU problem, one which if I do say so myself was less imaginative than mine, but both more general and more practical. They published theirs in a real conference, received much acclaim for it, and I believe patented it, started a so-called company and eventually sold it to Microsoft.'
asciilifeform: dunno. but that was the response.
mircea_popescu: what's the candy bar to do
asciilifeform: it is in the l0gz somewhere
asciilifeform: got the ENTIRELY unsurprising 'what, you're a martian?' stare back.
asciilifeform: btw when i went down into the snakepit with several dozen renowned 'cryptographers' earlier this year, i asked a few folks about this.
asciilifeform: that's the basic boojum of crypto as practiced by extant 'cryptographers'.
mircea_popescu: fine, state it like this : when someone proposes a hash, see if you can find a y for which the reverse is trivial.
asciilifeform: it is 100% exactly the same case as in symmetric cipherdom.
asciilifeform: whole notion of hash is that 'do the inverse' is hard.
mircea_popescu: yes, but if one proposes a f, doing the inverse just to see what happens is a good approach.
asciilifeform: nor any path to the f.
asciilifeform: we haven't the f.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: this is super unimportant but under your analysis, he says that 2 is safer than 1. you claim that 1 is safer than 2. should be inverted, methinks. (the "(less safe)" refers to 1, not to 2.)
mircea_popescu: the f^-1 approach being actually pretty sensible.
mircea_popescu: For any function f, the existence of a (randomized) non-adaptive reduction of NP to the task of average-case inverting f implies that coNP ⊆ AM.
mircea_popescu: If given y one can efficiently compute |f^-1(y)| then the existence of a (randomized) reduction of NP to the task of inverting f implies that coNP ⊆ AM. Thus, it follows that such reductions cannot exist unless coNP ⊆ AM.
mircea_popescu: We consider the possibility of basing one-way functions on NP-Hardness; that is, we study possible reductions from a worst-case decision problem to the task of average-case inverting a polynomial-time computable function f. Our main findings are the following two negative results:
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, jp about to drop $100B of printolade.
mircea_popescu: "She does stink and she should quit. But I don't want it to be because of me. It should be the traditional route; years of rejections and failures till she's spit out the bottom of the porn industry."
mircea_popescu: they're still dead, irrespective how inconvenient that may turn out to be!
asciilifeform: lose the books, lose 0 stupidity, and ~all shit worth actually knowing.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 14:36 asciilifeform: or what, the incas read marx and lenin before building their kolhoz ?
asciilifeform: not otherwise.
jurov: deedbot: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20160601/attachment.txt?sha1=af8606ade95cc571a9b29f0570d3c783a29c0ffe
mircea_popescu: well, you could consider pair-of-primes as the key.
asciilifeform: (raw n-bit string that hasn't been fed to nextprime() nor the other tests, is not a key!)
asciilifeform: and the work required to break each.
asciilifeform: keyspace is the space of all possible ~actual keys we might end up with~ at the end of proper key generation.
asciilifeform: that isn't the keyspace.
asciilifeform: a clearer approach would be to state this in terms of how many bits of entropy, such that is used in generating key, are de facto discarded by the nextprime() op.
mircea_popescu: are there more than possible combinations of 6 character passwords ?
Framedragger: hm. *this* (i.e.: that "no polynomial-time algorithm exists for factoring the product of two random n-bit primes with some good probability") *is* less safe as compared to the safer assumption that "no polynomial-time algorithm exists for always factoring all products of two random n-bit primes". this is a much safer assumption cf. to the one you interpreted it to mean, no? (no baiting this time - just honestly confused). but eh, may
mircea_popescu: let's quantify this hell of a lot together.
asciilifeform: there's a hell of a lot.
a111: 1 results for "prime number theorem", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=prime%20number%20theorem
asciilifeform: $s prime number theorem
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the even more hilarious bit is that there just aren't THAT MANY primes to make different keys of a specified size.
asciilifeform: ^ the hilarious bit is that we are smashing 'randomly selected n-bit primes' every day now
asciilifeform: (an no this has not been done for any extant system other than otp)
mircea_popescu: but yes, what he's trying to copy was originally correct : the problem with cryptosystems is that even if they "reference" an actual hard problem, they don't get to stand in for the fucking problem itself! they pick a case, and we've no good hardness measurers for mere cases.
asciilifeform: i.e. problems np-complete in the general case, but very much p in ~every known instance.
mircea_popescu: "Note the "random instances" part. For a concrete example, we might assume that no polynomial-time algorithm exists for factoring the product of two random n-bit primes with some good probability. This is very different (less safe) from assuming that no polynomial-time algorithm exists for always factoring all products of two random n-bit primes."
mircea_popescu: Framedragger chiefly, that it isn't. i posit that nothing good or useful can come of some kid at rutger's self importantly answering questions on a website because some 17 yo kid who thinks himself too cool for his ohio highschool asked a dumb question with the usual smattering of wikipedia his teachers usually A him for.
asciilifeform: the 'cryptographers', my shiny metal arse.
Framedragger: so wikipedia sux and sometimes you need to glance at it, the way a hasty businessman glances at a dubitable street food stand in a foreign city. sometimes the temporary "before pgp xamarin something" solution is to glance at that damn wikipedia. what of it
mircea_popescu: so some officious schmuck wants me to read "the section on wikipedia" where a set of snakeoil salesmen discuss their imaginary snake oil properties ? the glbgbblglbvrhl!
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 14:24 Framedragger: not to rain on the parade (not that i could), but isn't it possible such a thing won't ever be found? http://stackoverflow.com/a/3654889
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: merely point out that the "root layer of the universe structure" may be a blocker on this bug. but the root layer has needed a paddlin' anyway..
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 14:24 Framedragger: not to rain on the parade (not that i could), but isn't it possible such a thing won't ever be found? http://stackoverflow.com/a/3654889
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474465 << the republic seeks not so as to find, but so as to make.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 14:09 asciilifeform: (and i will add that no public implementation wrote it correctly, either.)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474432 << eh, the public has to yet write anything correctly.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 14:02 Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-31#1474264 << that's nice, but doesn't the beloved cramer-shoup also use hashes? their scheme, to quote, "requires a universal one-way hash function"
mircea_popescu: than fought, yelps" is yet again obvious, and for the hundredeth or so time will pass unheeded, i guess.
mircea_popescu: and so the matter settled : what started on may 25th as a slight disparity between the usg faux bitcoin exchanges trading at 448 (bitfinex isn't inclued here, having nothing to do with bitcoin altogether) while btcchina was reporting 455 (and 2/3 of the total volume), eventually peaked out at 510/580 (with btcchina still doing 2/3 of the volume) and eventually settled at 530/540. the moral that "you should have yielded rather
mircea_popescu: so electricity is like, <4 cent / kwh commercial in alberta ? who the hell knew, that's pretty good mining pricing neh ?
mircea_popescu: what you keep them live ?!
mircea_popescu: shinohai "buy these prized aquarium fish. no heads!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474338 << dude what the everloving shit, you heat on electricity in fucking canada ?!
shinohai: The best was the `no 'Web of Trust' needed` comment. He refused to read the relevant trilema article that I sent him obviously.
mircea_popescu can already picture the kid in question, 19 yo pakistani with a few online freelancing projects under his belt "spreading out" etc.
asciilifeform: ^ this was the umpteenth copy of deedbot, also
a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 23:33 shinohai: Judging from the flurry of messages I'm getting I think I triggered someone.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-31#1474330 <<< sooo... copy tmsr items, "launch" them, ??? profit... why are these webdicklets so derpy anyway.
asciilifeform: it isn't even a mega-leap, judicially, these folks knew they were going to meet allah, hence for insurance purposes can be 'suicide'
shinohai: iirc they had children?
mircea_popescu: ah so the plot deepthickens.
mircea_popescu: which never is THE DEAD BLOKE
mircea_popescu: the life policy carries a stated beneficiary
asciilifeform: the precedent is re estate of dead criminal
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-01#1474626 << su had a judicial sentence 'with confiscation of property', which was routinely employed, and included ~all~ property of the condemned. usa presently does not have such a sentence - it has 'proceeds and instruments of the crime', and 'restitution', which amount to ~same thing. and soon will be == de jure.
mircea_popescu: so what's the logic, "this guy pissed us off, his FAMILY therefore must not get reimbursed for losing teh means of support etc" ?
shinohai: It's ok for the USof A to collectively punish people, but not N Korea, etc ?
a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 19:50 Framedragger: aha, then i guess you don't really enjoy the fact that gpg uses aes for session key actually? :)
mircea_popescu: the same sort of thinking informs it everywhere, and it's that sight most loathed in nature, the mental squid of an engineer!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see thread from this morning. hashes suck in exactly the way aes sucks.
a111: Logged on 2016-05-29 14:21 mircea_popescu: and that finally there is absolutely no reason to implement arbitrary division in the machine, nor does such idiocy exist in nature ; that the correct machine representation of numbers is FRACTIONS not fucking "decimals", and that computers that natively support bignum up to the size of memory and execute gcd in hardware aren't either particularly hard to make nor their absence to date excusable.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-31#1474270 << http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-29#1473232 >> other things. computers are hacks!
a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 19:36 asciilifeform: for instance, i used to be able to read the log by hitting 'reload'
asciilifeform: hey it's how my brother and i split candy bars as children.
mircea_popescu: that there's your market, entirely. one cuts, antoher picks. it only works in that context.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you believe that i quit, never to return, an assembly of esteemable finance heads when in congress they didn't agree, nor couldn't understand, why exactly "to split any item to two parties : one cuts, the other picks" is not only equitable, but the only equitable method so much so any other method is derived from it, and equitable only in as much as it's similar.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in usa, there is saying 'market is not invisible hand, but a tentacle - sometimes, rapes'
mircea_popescu: let's walk together through the history of this fine "market" thing, if we shall. so, it solved "the problem of feeding people", with hfcs. nice. and before that, it solved "the problem of trading in china". with opium. and before that...
asciilifeform: until if and when somebody conceives of how to reprocess them into saleable recycled feedstock.
mircea_popescu: and for the things where market - enjoy your corn syrup, the market chosen solution.
mircea_popescu: well so sure, but then the market isn't "a magical solution from god for all the crazy dangerous shit i don't want to have to deal with".
mircea_popescu: what was said was that for as long as you value the S for a, worth z, and for b, worth x, whereas she values the sack FOR THE SAME a, worth y and for the same b, worth x, then therer can be a market.
asciilifeform: it is enough to find 1 buyer who has the sack of rubbish on his list. for it to have market worth.
mircea_popescu: before it manages that, it's a shitty island on the side of the great faith empire of a man on whose dominions sun never sets.
asciilifeform: pointedly not. plutonium is worth $-maxint (to the point that they would pay to have it removed from their house) to most folks. because not in their list. but on market - $maxint.
mircea_popescu: when they don't make the same lists a market's impossible, which is why britain must "civilize" the world before it can be a "trade empire".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. a market exists when people make the same lists but order them differently.
mircea_popescu: trinque ~same as there's to envy about having been born again or w/e, having found one's religion, calling, life, hapiness, w/e.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the solution is called 'market', no ?
mircea_popescu: and there the problem starts : given the same sack of whatever pounds' worth selected from the city dump, two different people will not make the same item, same order "lists of assets".
trinque: there's nothing to envy about being owned.
mircea_popescu: odd that this doesn't occur to you as the obvious answer to the whole "gold brick" bs. "oh, why doesn't mouse go down THIS tunnel!" "because there's a barb at the entrance and it stepped on it" "what barb ?!?!" "there" "oh, that ? that's just a barb!"
mircea_popescu: well, yeah, and plenty of girls have the scars to show it.
mircea_popescu: were you in adjust school ? where, war ? killed enough people to now known how they tick ? or where exactly, that was true, and truthful, and you paid attention.
mircea_popescu: for one thing, it's always hard to get past the little voice whispering at one that he's important, but : what makes you think you'd know what to adjust ?
asciilifeform: they think 'no serviceable parts...' aha.
mircea_popescu: no-serviceable-parts-inside hammer still works acceptably for all manner of people not making it their business to do complicated things with metals in surfaces
mircea_popescu: i already shudder at the thought of what my statue'll look like when i'm asleep.
a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 19:07 asciilifeform: hey, when the man is asleep ~somebody~'s gotta proffer the pineapple!111
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: research lab where one has to explain the criteria of divisibility with 2... <<< aaaaaaaaand guess where i worked !
a111: Logged on 2016-05-31 19:04 asciilifeform: eh iirc mircea_popescu flies these in and reprogramms them to spec in days.