mircea_popescu: "alf's idea of a think he has no sensation access nor cares to reasses to has remained unchanged over the interval the foregoing held"
asciilifeform: and remaining fat, what there is.
asciilifeform: then again, north kr has chugged along .
mircea_popescu: dubious there'll be a 2031 to palpate against.
mircea_popescu: the difference even 2001 to 2016 is palpable.
mircea_popescu: it's just about clear the ship's hollow and will sink.
mircea_popescu: myeah. kinda why the name of the game has been "suck it dry and expatriate all you can" for about a decade now.
asciilifeform: 'So she returned to the state disability office and told them this. Their response was, "Oh, I guess that's new. Okay, no problem, we'll assign you a different ID number." My cousin's kid was like "WTF?" and asked them why they would reassign her a number rather than reassign, or better yet freeze, the SSN thief's account. Their response was that they don't get involved in those legal issues, their job is just to provide the benefit
asciilifeform: using SSNs to get benefits, was to stop providing documentation so that the person who was actually associated to the number could prove it, because there were too many instances of this happening.' << this is actual and typical.
asciilifeform: 'The state told her she had to contact the SSA to get a specific form that says her SSN was misused and that she in fact was the "owner" of her number. When she went to the SSA, she said they wouldn't give her the form. The reason? They stopped giving them out (apparently recently as this just happened a few months ago) because they were getting too many request for them. So their decision, rather than going after the people falsely
mircea_popescu: crabs in the pot.
mircea_popescu: and in ~other news http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=52365.msg1068840#msg1068840
asciilifeform: it was among the first arsebooks.
mircea_popescu: apparently these aren't ACTUALLY worth money after all ?
asciilifeform: nah, she prolly would've put some emo crapola in there)
asciilifeform: (could even be the man's acct, slowly draining?)
asciilifeform: somebody must be paying the bill...
mircea_popescu: the beauty of the fucking logs - what is actually said can, and IS actually extricated from the "reasonable interpretation" it forms at the time of the saying. this is both a) a necessary effect of the passage of time and b) actually exponential rather than log or even liear. Moreover c) it actually provides aggregating benefits to everyone's toolset.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: any of, e.g., the notation threads. or the dope thread. or any ' mircea_popescu: this is worthless crapola used by posers to appear relevant . asciilifeform: no, i saw it used, and perhaps used personally, to palpable effect. mircea_popescu: bullshit, i can do same thing with shoestring and power of my mind. asciilifeform: ...'
asciilifeform: and yes, walk across usa and meet 1,000,001 people who think GIGANTIC lathe, or tractor, or kalash with SHIT HANGING OFF SIDE, will make them THE GREAT MEISTER etc.
asciilifeform: was speaking of the generalized 'tool is +30iq'
mircea_popescu: actually, starting the week after proper log/search/irc took off.
asciilifeform: but ~in the hands of one~ etc.
asciilifeform: nor the funny hat.
asciilifeform: nor the dope
asciilifeform: no, numerals do not make brilliant mathematician
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, i suspect, was originally allergic to the 'roman numerals' observation for approx same reason as in dope thread
asciilifeform: because he was not mircea_popescu and did not have any knife sharp enough to actually make a palpable mark on the wall.
asciilifeform: had the classic 'earthworm and ants' feel to it
mircea_popescu: but one could pretend the entire car nonsense was his trying to say that and no more.
mircea_popescu: he ~almost~ nearly makes the "it is wrong to encourqage code writing over code reading" point, and then it oddly eludes him
asciilifeform: the ant traps in my kitchen also have to be repeated every odd year.
asciilifeform: of the 'i want MY WAY, solely because MY shit dun stink, MOVE OVER old system'
mircea_popescu: so fucking far up their own ass is their head, that merely me ~saying~ something is stupid, which should be fucking enough among any group of adults with functional brains, is not,
asciilifeform: naggum is ~the~ go-to source, pre-bitcoin, in my mind, re this eternal war.
mircea_popescu: and they have to constantly, painfully, slowly, humiliatingly be beaten down with a large stick.
asciilifeform: when comp.lang.lisp was besieged by loud arsehats demanding to reopen the committee so they could have orc glyphs or whichever.
mircea_popescu: he has the strong excuse no bitcoin was there. but the main problem of bitcoin as "foss" is precisely this - that various idiots think they may change things.
asciilifeform: he observed the 'changes idiots perceive they are entitled to' at agonizing length re common lisp standard
mircea_popescu: it's not that "bigger systems require changes" AT ALL. on the contrary : it's that bigger systems do not PERMIT changes some idiots think they are entitled to.
mircea_popescu: such as "in lowering the perceived barrier to entry, encourages idiots and degrades median code quality" ; "in encouraging writing over reading, it plays to software's weaknesses against its strengths" scl
mircea_popescu: it's true foss died ; for which reason it carries little water here. but the frustration is a) the inability of foss to maintain strong immutability in front of organised crime, be it usg or otherwise ; b) the part where it can't actually move is valid, but not exactly for the reason he describes.
mircea_popescu: han the ones people today think are usefully modified locally." << this, for instance, is oddly half-true/half-delusional.
mircea_popescu: "I think Free Software and Open Source addicts will get down from their current high and become tremendously frustrated when the obvious problem of having millions of pieces of source code available and they actually can't move in any direction because the ability to make modifications that they have so lauded in the past turn into a very serious problem when much bigger problems require modifications to much larger systems t
asciilifeform: or the hammer-drill from mircea_popescu's latest piece.
mircea_popescu: anyway ; im putting this off to an exquisitely bad metaphor, with the cars.
asciilifeform: normally. but from the words i began to suspect that we had been to the same mine fields.
mircea_popescu: did to understand what he "meant" through "redefining what open() means in the middle of the text"
asciilifeform: not 'bend over and spread arse cheeks for existing state of the art', no.
mircea_popescu: so then what's this gunk all about.
asciilifeform: he solved it the trb way.
mircea_popescu: naggum's solution to "bitcoin is broken" would be pointedly not to "take over source and discharge the delusional folks "releasing" "versions" in their own mind" ; but instead to "find another way". perhaps what, spam the forums ? to build consensus ?
mircea_popescu: i don't care about the consumer.
asciilifeform: even regardless of whether demand comes with a stack of cash that reaches to pluto.
mircea_popescu: "car goes through your house" requires "other way provider" to recognize car owner as boss.
asciilifeform: as described in his cpp chronicles. he largely quit programming for a good while, because disagreed with the use of the abomination.
mircea_popescu: his "car could go there some other way" requires car user to recognize "other way provider" as boss.
mircea_popescu: "|I don't see why anyone would insist on a way to do things that does not solves the real problem, but rather solve an ancilliary problem that is a problem only because someone is very stubborn." << the political ineptidude of these people.
mircea_popescu: also need a proper sized jade piece, which is rarer the bigger it gets.
mircea_popescu: in another life /me had set of five jade spheres, hand carved. whole thing about titsized.
PeterL: speaking of which, where is the best place to find torrents?
asciilifeform: i have nfi what deal idiot made with which preet to preserve the remaining empty skin husk of his arse.
asciilifeform: § 2466. The claimants appeal the judgment on several grounds, most prominent among them that the district court lacked jurisdiction over the defendant property because it resides in foreign countries, that fugitive disentitlement violates constitutional due process, and that disentitlement in this case was improper because the claimants are not fugitives from the law. Finding these arguments unpersuasive, we affirm the district cou
asciilifeform: 'The claimants in this case appeal from the district court’s entry of default judgment for the government in a civil forfeiture action against funds deposited in the claimants’ names in banks in New Zealand and Hong Kong. Default judgment was entered after the government successfully moved to disentitle the claimants from defending their claims to the defendant property under the federal fugitive disentitlement statute, 28 U.S.C.
asciilifeform: in other noose, http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/d15a7303-62c3-4aa5-beaf-f67218ab3ebf/?raw=true
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: But the tricky bits here are these spheres within spheres, the Klein bottle tanks, the irrational gears
mircea_popescu: apparently not even folk - jordin kare is the propulsion guy neh ?
asciilifeform: well yes, you can, it is the item referred to.
asciilifeform: http://genius.com/Jordin-kare-the-engineer-lyrics << appears to be it, or at least variant.
mircea_popescu: so then there's the two and only two available strategies. the psychopath (the more i lose, the more i send, fuck you) ; and the woman (the more i lose, the less i send, may my children cover the earth).
mircea_popescu: there's a reason we have domestic sheep but not domestic mice
mircea_popescu: they cut down on losses ; instead of leaning into on losses.
asciilifeform: or rather, bomber.
asciilifeform: cowardice has ~0 to do with it, there were jet bombers over london in april '45.
mircea_popescu: in the end, material shortages decide a lot more than people like to think.
mircea_popescu: there's an overarching consensus that the germans would have broken britain had they not been cowards and kept up the london bombin.
asciilifeform: hence were few, and what few there were, had mtbf measured in 10s of hrs.
asciilifeform: and requires functional grip on the materials.
asciilifeform: it is not the designer's place to replace the metallurgist. but 'design for manufacturability', for instance, is a thing.
mircea_popescu: romanian train (no need to discuss alloy, there were like 4) ; egyptian car (they'll use the best they can) ; etc. many possible contexts.
asciilifeform: the result is, approximately, american car.
mircea_popescu: the alternative to this is strictly "the lady of the lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft computador from the bosom of the lake"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will note that there exists no life of the spirit outside of exactly this "i will pick high level abstracrtion and proceed to allign realia to it"
asciilifeform: because everybody 'i'm a genius and will pick the tower back up and insert hard ground under it because i am better than everyone who lived prior' etc.
asciilifeform: this painful lesson is taught, again and again, for the whole history of the idiot field, but nobody learns.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: the 'i will pick high-level abstractions and then, much later, find a low-level set that supports them well' is doomed. and leads to, e.g., urbit.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the incomprehensible mists were him, not you. who the hell knows what's in the box of a guy who does such contradictory things as alf pointed out. i wouldn't risk much on the theory we share any mythology, and it's not even directly evident gabriel_laddel actually lives meaningfully related to the human condition.
mircea_popescu: phf this "you already know all knowledge, just, you know, wash" is ridiculous enough, but nowhere the ridiculousness is in starker evidence than in the harem. "so i washed, can i bellydance yet ?" "no, wash more."
asciilifeform: i will even come & eat there.
phf: mircea_popescu: that point is consistently being driven home. in fact i got to talk lisp to a bunch of random people and had a very visceral experience of the gap. hathayogapradipika says to keep your yoga secret, i.e. don't be a incomprehensible myst. but sometimes i still get carried away. ~some~ people grok me though, even when i start speaking internal experiences.
gabriel_laddel: we need masamune machines to design on top of until then
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: we've already discussed this. I'm going to be selling masamune computers + related until the leap can be made from the cee machine to... something else
asciilifeform: and there is not a shortcut ladder into heaven that lets you 'save time' by 'using what you have' etc.
mircea_popescu: well, it certainly is much more effective when stuck with the apparent incomprehensible mysts, as seen here.
asciilifeform: so then, what does gabriel_laddel want ~on top~ of 'some moneyz'
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't take it all the way to the cave, i believe that one can tap into shared mythic space which has more to do with human condition than it does with humanless abstract. but for how often i'm misunderstood, i suspect that socratic method is much more effective.
asciilifeform: so i must infer that gabriel_laddel did not 'just want some moneyz' or he would be there, already, shovel in hand.
asciilifeform: the shovels were insufficient, to shovel it.
asciilifeform: and then some.
asciilifeform: at usgschwitz also we had all the moneyz you could want.
asciilifeform: presumably you know the address, i do not need to point.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: for folks who 'dun care how, just wanna make some moneyz!111' the belching smokestacks of microshitschwitz are waiting.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, socrates used questions specifically for that fundamental reason - that understanding may only happen on the basis of what the understander contains, and naught else.
mircea_popescu: phf but your argument fundamentally is "there's no need for communication because the essence of all things is in all things", which is what that is.
asciilifeform: and i can see them buggers through 10 metres of steel.
asciilifeform: a kitchen with roaches, and kitchen with-roaches but at given instance in time they are behind closed cabinets and i cannot see them, are not the same item, even if 'functionally' the same from particular camera angle.
mircea_popescu: so you're a platonician then ?
gabriel_laddel: phf: I just want the fking thing to work and make me some money.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think asciilifeform and gabriel_laddel goals are very similar, combined together they'll produce an easy low complexity (but perhaps less glamorous) design space traversal path. gabriel_laddel doesn't see it, because he thinks that a certain stop on his path is "dirty" or somesuch, so he wants to avoid it altogether
mircea_popescu: phf the fundamental problem here is that you misuse words. "to resolve on the basis of" requires a basis, which is to say, something shared. whether right or wrong - i can resolve quantum physics disputes on the basis of coran suras if need be. yet your thing is "this is cool so should be basis". how cool it is has no bearing on how shared it is, you know ?
phf: the necessary mental steps.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 15:19 mircea_popescu: phf define for me the concept of "bridged on architectural grounds"
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519202 << it's kind of a pun, i think of systems design as landscape traversal. i think there are frequently paths, as is the case here, that hit multiple design goals and have lower overall complexity, better than a seemingly direct path, that has a hidden high complexity. abstract discussions about ideological goals, that don't take into account design space traversal can be resolved by actual taking
asciilifeform: on other end of the scale, there are freaks of nature who have so little 'pressure', they look for what to chameoleonize to wherever they go.
asciilifeform: there is a concept, ad-hoc, i refer to as 'pressure', but there is quite likely a better and more specific name for it. e.g., mircea_popescu , walks into a village, and the menfolk line up in one column and the wimminfolk in another, the men - pick up rifles, and wait for order, the chix - get on knees, ready to pleez, etc.
trinque cackles at this measure of whence the problem
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I can assure you that the problem here is not me. 'dated' (for some value of that word) a 35 yr chinese woman who had zero hangups
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if answer is 'years' and it still won't eat, either 'not programmable, get a new one' or 'the bad dancer is hindered by own arse' (tm) (r) (iddish proverb)
gabriel_laddel: Idk, couple months. the lsd thing never came up explicitly, but several things in that vein did.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: an to the "cowardice" thing. girls who are afraid of eg, dropping lsd, but happily eat whatever the doctor hands them, inspite of a boy having them read, OUT LOUD various articles, research on the respective effects == cowards aor stupid.
mircea_popescu: hence kim the ~armenian~
mircea_popescu: that's part of the whole "o look, latinas in miami" lulz. if you're going to decide to go brunette, there's a shitload better options than fucking south america, and they come from the golden crescent.
trinque dated one; they're fucking hot
mircea_popescu: i suspect the subtext there is "you're poor". i've known irani chicks, not exhibited such problems. perhaps their daddy being petrified of me a large factor.
mircea_popescu: gotta play to the op's strengths not weaknesses.
gabriel_laddel: can memorize anything, rattle of facts about various interesting topics. Totally unable to see things from outside of the box she's been in for N years.
mircea_popescu: myeah kinda towards the end of salvation window.
PeterL: is having the girlfriend too much work, or does the too much work get in the way of having girlfriend?
mircea_popescu: perhaps it's just the girls he cavorts with. needy adolescent can be exhausting.
asciilifeform: and gabriel_laddel if i 'cannot girlfriend because too much work' but the 'work' does not pay even enough to have flea-ridden flat, or post address, i would consider another work...
mircea_popescu: consider that there's more to your tooling than just the software and fix things in priority order.
mircea_popescu: trinque> you'll actually get more useful work done if you take time to fix your life. << i support the notion. life's not a sprint but a marathon, and attempting to build anything serious on the very rotten shifty bases here described is not unlike trying to do clim in windows 95.
asciilifeform: ah there.
trinque: the brain needs control over its environment to function best
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 15:52 asciilifeform: other folks - welcome to grep own l0gz.
mircea_popescu: "they sure wouldn't have built this very versatile car, which they talk about a lot more than where they have used it and for what" << now this is fo sho valid criticism of the whole demographic.
gabriel_laddel: (among other things in my life that are totally fucked)
mircea_popescu: well then that kinda work should eat through your 300 overdraft in a short time.
gabriel_laddel: were I fundraising for clim, yes, it would not be via 'crowdfunding' and yes, the numbers would be in the 10ks
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: that's going to have to wait 1-5 months then, depending on my fiscal situation
asciilifeform: but plox find yer key gabriel_laddel , esp. if you want the old lenovo thing, i'ma only ship to signed post addr.
asciilifeform: so there's that.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: neither mine, nor - it would appear - anyone else's log - has record of this
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I authed many times in 2015
mircea_popescu: you want to change the world, build on top of immutable primitives, like in v. don't go around pretending "light" now means something else than yesterday.
mircea_popescu: and that thing is unmitigatedly evil ; not to mentionm the fundamental source and ther self-replicating living body, of our present predicaments.
mircea_popescu: that is the policy. any opposition to this, such as "we're now calling niggers afroamerican" or such as "naggum redefined OPEN() to work on his system" is EXACTLY the same thing,
mircea_popescu: there's no "toilet bacteria" ; there is genetic variation, but by geography not by function.
mircea_popescu: go do this experiment for curiosity. plumbing grows ~the same stuff everywhere.
asciilifeform: 'learn how the world works!' mno.
mircea_popescu: there is no "bacterium that only" except in the masturbatory alt-reality, necessarily inexistent, secreted by overexcited virgins who lived in a basement.
asciilifeform: is the wall a 'lie' ?
mircea_popescu: in that you're crudely approximating something that's fundamentally impossible - and tell yourselfd this is proof the impossible may be possible! magic! socialism!
asciilifeform: where is the lie ?
mircea_popescu: you can run a buggy approximation thereof.
asciilifeform: which is why x86 goes to the skip.
asciilifeform: none of which is 'redefine x for other processes'
mircea_popescu: you're eschewing the question. "operator=me" has two options : a) not run the code ; b) run the code, giving whoever wrote it operator status.
mircea_popescu: what is so hard about this concept is that it is not a concept of wisdom but a concept of idiocy. which is to say, it does not belong in reality, but in the masturbatory alt-reality, necessarily inexistent, secreted by overexcited virgins who lived in a basement.
asciilifeform: and no, it doesn't get to 'redefine open' for any other process.
mircea_popescu: for the record, if a system had this sort of "semantic indirection" built in where any fuckwad could "redefine OPEN()" i'd burn it and piss on the ashes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the coming of 'justice holman's, preets, etc. is not unlike the fungus in aids patient - it is not there from insufficient antifungal intake. by the time it appears, ought to pick out tomb stone, write will.
mircea_popescu: seems to me it's rather about how amphibious buldozers are unnecessary because her majesty's engineering corps may one day get around to building a road that goes where I WANT.
asciilifeform: subj is not about whether mircea_popescu likes to plow through swamp. but about whether roads are unnecessary because let's all buy amphibious bulldozers.
mircea_popescu: i want to plow right through the fucking swamp.
mircea_popescu: his "open car design" is copied exactly off the "no guns" europolicy.
mircea_popescu: yes. and the reason no allowance for it is made in say v is also very particular.
asciilifeform: iver on the far side of the forest. you can't get all that right away after you made up your mind to veer off the road, and This Is Surely Somebody's Fault...'
asciilifeform: 'suppose you drive down the highway and you suddenly want to go some nice place you saw just before you pass a forest. you veer off the road, plunge into the wilderness and promptly decide that you need four-wheel drive, a huge cutting device in front of your car, much better shock absorbers, a bigger engine that could actually run on swamp water instead of getting all drowned, and then need an amphibious vehicle to get across the r
mircea_popescu: cool. useful because otherwise...
mircea_popescu: well, now and again the matter will pop up anew.
phf: (mostly because those logs will have to have negative id's, i assume there are bunch of places, where ids are handled with parse-integer)
mircea_popescu: phf wait, how does this work ? i recall i sent you a batch, or was there a problem there ?
asciilifeform: which is sad, because by this time he could have rebirthed himself with new key and worked long enough for new key to add up to a man
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't have the 2012 ones yet
asciilifeform: herr laddel would not be the first unlucky fella to lose key and then be 'too lazy to reach for it' for yearz.
asciilifeform: other folks - welcome to grep own l0gz.
a111: Logged on 2014-11-22 06:21 punkman: another fun exercise, trying to install Linux on 3TB disk
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-22#931508 << the logged line immediately after his last known selfvoice.
mircea_popescu: trinque can you modify deedbot so instead of "<deedbot> gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes." it says "<deedbot> gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. Last self-authed on : <timestamp>" ?
mircea_popescu: apparently this needs an actual command, $last_check name or somesuch. looks for the last time someone self-authed.
mircea_popescu: of course... he wouldn't do it in cahn in the first place would he.
asciilifeform: iirc phf has whole set in there
mircea_popescu: im too lazy to dig up the old logfiles.
asciilifeform: when's the last time he $v'd, while we're on subj ?
mircea_popescu: and in other "la vie c'est ailleurs" news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/acf990fa23a1a30bad4ca6c6e21af8a6/tumblr_ndu41h5Ot61ttr86so1_500.gif
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/princess-diana-secret-sex-toy-8615318
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody uses the stock nic. it was largely the impetus for the bios swap.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i ended up reversing the vendor bios on x60, or rather, the particular routine that concerned the hardware whitelist, and nopped it out
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel the point was that rms made certain falsifiable statements, that alf took the pains to falsify.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: does the x61 crash running linux?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: neither crashes with vendor bios
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: the x61 does not crash?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: "machine crashes at full cpu load in 100% of case" < nevermind then. glad I asked.
asciilifeform: and if gabriel_laddel wants an x61 he can have mine for the cost of postage.
a111: Logged on 2016-02-29 16:55 asciilifeform: so at this point i'm satisfied that rms either 1) does not actually use an x60 machine with 'libreboot' ~~or~~ does not program.
asciilifeform: (the 'open' bios is neither open - uses blobs - nor actually works - machine crashes at full cpu load in 100% of case)
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: ty. asciilifeform: I think that the rotating screen is spiffy, and would love to stop carrying around a notepad + computer
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what do you need to know about either
mircea_popescu: you realise that derivative evaluates on bases other than... your money ?
gabriel_laddel: Gotta run. If anyone has experience with the levano x61 tablet or some other hardware you really like, do tell. I read all logs eventually.
asciilifeform: more like 'others see 2nd deriv.(your money) as 0 or -'
mircea_popescu: or w/e, "meta-no-money", if you'd rather.
asciilifeform: (and incidentally i have nfi which, the money, or the stevejobs. but to limit hypothesis to the latter strikes me as hasty)
mircea_popescu: wouldja stop with the fetishism ? "without money" == "dumb as rocks" and nothing else. not now, not during roman judaeea.
asciilifeform: or some other young stevejobs.
asciilifeform: i do not want a motherfucking 'desktop'.
mircea_popescu: phf define for me the concept of "bridged on architectural grounds"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'most of x11 is unnecessary' is a 20 y.o. heresy, that ends up summing to 'let's do graphics the way microshit does' in all cases.
gabriel_laddel: If I could just get the fking replication working..
gabriel_laddel: I have people waiting on me *right now* to sell them masamune machines.
gabriel_laddel: the client
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: if you saw what i do to 'make money' you would barf, and ask for the valium injector from this morning's thread
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i very much do not have a clear picture of what you're doing. other than the one fact that you seem to believe 'write directly to video ram' as 'viable replacement for x11'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the reason i sometimes try to 'wake up' young, excitable folk like gabriel_laddel is that they are not yet at a stage where one made various dead-end design choices , that, now locked into, man enters a sad lifetime of justification and 'just wanted to' and 'only a terrorist would throw out my life's work of library'
gabriel_laddel: Also, you seriously underestimate the utility of paying other people to do work for you.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: can we table this discussion for the time being? I understand what it is that you're getting at, but you don't have (and nor will you have) a clear picture of exactly what it is that I'm doing.
phf: problem with mcclim is that it went through many 2002 style "for the people" pretifications, that made optimizations, refinment and other aspects of architectural design work much harder than need be
phf: puts concerns where they matter. (like not requiring client render its own fonts for one)
phf: i think the disagreement can be bridged on architectural grounds. i think gabriel_laddel's lack of understanding of clx and ideological refusal to understand it better is going to result in the worse final design. there are examples of x11 done right, that are much easier to port away to native hardware. whether or not "x11" or "no x11" is the final design, basic x protocol provides for a very solid set of ground level elements and also
asciilifeform: a ~whole~ system lets me preserve the semantics of the items to be drawn, for maximally compact transmission over a wire, and rasterizing on a display of my choosing
asciilifeform: the part i dispute, gabriel_laddel , is that it is WHOLE
mircea_popescu: i think the last person who had that locked themselves in a cellar and rages there still.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I will note that if someone with sufficent knowledge of x.org stumbles into my life, I'd be happy to pay them to solve the issues CLIM has with it
asciilifeform: let, then, gabriel_laddel waste half a decade , as i did, learning what he could instead learn in 10min.
asciilifeform: the thread is about ~design~ of future junk !
mircea_popescu: so then stfu and let him use all sorts of junk too!