asciilifeform: there, testable.
mircea_popescu: burden of proof applies to meaningful statements. there's no burden of proof here, as this inference isn't even wrong.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-13 00:03 asciilifeform: if mr thief picks mircea_popescu 's pocket, goes to the races, wins, and put the money back, he is still a pickpocket
asciilifeform: and the starlight carries 0 info
asciilifeform: and yes, there IS chance that key was lost
mircea_popescu: they spell out 666 JOO
asciilifeform: fact is, it moved. MAYBE to other pocket of same guy, maybe not. but MOVED.
mircea_popescu: you may think you see whatever ; for all you know some guy "sees" the true meaning of pgp signatures.
asciilifeform: *but that bit is there
asciilifeform: like the hundie that turned, 'spontaneously', to 5 20s.
asciilifeform: to say 'aint no such thing as taint' is great that bit is there, like the light from a distant star, it carries info.
asciilifeform: the coin movement is a bit of information.
asciilifeform: re bbet example and the 5 20s.
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu in the right to collect his balls
asciilifeform: if mr thief picks mircea_popescu 's pocket, goes to the races, wins, and put the money back, he is still a pickpocket
mircea_popescu: unlike fiat, there specifically ISNT as much of this as anyone could ever need.
asciilifeform: elsewise shitfinex's 'insurance' will have been 'legit' right up to its total disappearance from the record.
asciilifeform: going up the stack, i dun see successful gambler as == to 'was covered'
mircea_popescu: the rousseau nonsense is unrelated to our discussion so far.
asciilifeform: for all the substance in the 'social contract' lunacy, it may as well be bill from dead cromagnons etc.
mircea_popescu: if you don't catch fdmjkrlehkjer now, shall a dead genoan send you the bill ?
asciilifeform: if i catch syphilis now, can i charge the penicillin bill to some dead genoan?
mircea_popescu: mno. "i don't see how they did" and "i see how they didn't" are quite widely spaced apart.
asciilifeform: 'cause it isn' there?
mircea_popescu: actually there's more substance to lending than ~anyone ever alive ever realised.
mircea_popescu: there's more substance to lending than the naive christian "asking a living out of bare metal".
mircea_popescu: SHYLOCK: Three thousand ducats; 'tis a good round sum. Three months from twelve; then, let me see; the rate...
asciilifeform: did they assess risk of discovering syphilis??
mircea_popescu: the italians all had proper risk and insurance markets.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:45 mircea_popescu: let me put it this way : the fact that we don't have a proper money market is much more the problem of "the community" than the problem of the misfortunate whoever that ran bitbet. whether he was a scammer or not, as a factual matter, as an idealised, theoretical construct the observation stands.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520274 << well, we have a 'these ships sail for west indies next morning and most will come back never, or in a decade, and maybe full of gold and slaves, or maybe plague' market.
mircea_popescu: ahh, the scent of boiling rope.
asciilifeform: pete is, as i understand, boiling the rope, as we speak.
mircea_popescu: of course they did.
asciilifeform: lol aha, 'if i dun steal that donkey, another will'
mircea_popescu: you think the average us banker DIDNT know, throughout the 2000s , that they're going straight into real estate crisis ?
mircea_popescu: not even a temptation. the ECONOMIC DRIVE! if he doesn't - another will. and neither he nor the other are mp, to obliterate any conceivable competition by simple fucking logos like a thing out of the sacred texts. so what's he to do ?
asciilifeform: the 'winners' - we generally never hear about.
asciilifeform: and yes, the temptation to 'invest' other people's coin , without their knowledge, has been overwhelming, for ~every megascammer to date.
mircea_popescu: yes, it's not even altogether clear there CAN be such a thing as a bitcoin-equivalent of the fiat money market. yes, problems of all sorts, yes yes yes. and yet - what's he to do ?
mircea_popescu: let me put it this way : the fact that we don't have a proper money market is much more the problem of "the community" than the problem of the misfortunate whoever that ran bitbet. whether he was a scammer or not, as a factual matter, as an idealised, theoretical construct the observation stands.
mircea_popescu: sure. but this is a conclusion that requires analysis above the pay grade to make.
asciilifeform: what time value. after private mpoe, the ~only + or even breakeven ev btc use is 'hodl'.
mircea_popescu: some fish might be too big to care ; but in general fish that aren't too big to care are required, economically, to maximize the usage of resources.
mircea_popescu: in general, unless someone is ~central bank, it'll be difficult for them to ignore the time-value of capital.
asciilifeform: nevertheless i am free to consider a hypothesis that could be ruled out if he had not moved it.
asciilifeform: and no 'smart contract' or whatever, just radio static. it is ~possible~ that znort moved the coin because, solely because, he is allergic to odd-numbered addrs. or sumthing.
mircea_popescu: well no possible argument there ; sure.
mircea_popescu: yes, little difference between idiot putting bitcoin into bitfinex and idiot putting bitcoin into canadian lottery. but this is not the same as saying "we shall now has smart contracts bitbet"
mircea_popescu: yes, this may be. the problem is that THE SOLUTION you originally envisaged / the STATEMENT of the problem you originally used is braindead. this is, ironically, very much approached to his worship our bishop's objections - in that merely thinking you "should be able" to technologize your way into heaven is scarce guarantee you will in fact manage such.
mircea_popescu: anyway, don't misunderstand the "not to make money" bit, it's in my case a coincidence not a virtue. go, make money, absolutely no shame in it. a lot of shame in luchamos juntos blablala, so there's that.
mircea_popescu: it's not a complaint ; it's a statement of fact, made at a time it's required to be made to protect the business environment from public insanity.
mircea_popescu: it wasn't a significant sum - think, i threw away 1k btc to humiliate buffett, i threw away 5 fucking btc for stuff like the contest that produced "shall be delivered" ; etc. moreover, to correctly account for it would have likely cost more.
a111: Logged on 2016-03-14 16:33 phf: nubbins`: it's a shame that you chose this approach for your denouncement. some people are here (myself, maybe ascii) not to make money, but to fuck around with novel ways of doing things. it would've been nifty if, as a "lord" if you will, you picked up the game and made your accusations formal, maybe solicited a judge from the wot, made it interesting somehow! you don't have to obviously, but the approach that you chose was basic and
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: What every Indiancandi has the same name or something?
asciilifeform: or was it the 'pay for sunlight' thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 23:19 mircea_popescu: this is just another of those "sunk costs of mp's that we don't recognize nor compensate him for - just expect bitbet to magically work for free"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520211 << did mircea_popescu ever say why he did not charge the full cost of bitbetronics? it was loss leader? or wat.
mircea_popescu: i think i am altogether a bad influence.
mircea_popescu: this makes the... shit i lost count-th lady flying into weird uncharted lands to meet with me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu gonna love the veery speshul seeeekrit rogervergerian offer!!
covertress: then I believe we now have something to discuss in private
mircea_popescu: alright then.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform whether he will pay with balls, wife, or a cute poem, is mp\s problem ; but you're to expect you will be paid.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is another problem of the prev discussed "bitbet" theme - without a proper cash market and cash insurance, it's pretty fucking hard to get it going.
covertress: I would like to propose a visit then, during my return leg from Shanghai.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well there's always that.
mircea_popescu: covertress as we don't know each other, we have nothing to discuss "in private". public will work jus' fine.
asciilifeform: hence - did not use after heathens got to it.
asciilifeform: i dun expect it to work. i expected it to walk with the coinz.
mircea_popescu: this is just another of those "sunk costs of mp's that we don't recognize nor compensate him for - just expect bitbet to magically work for free"
mircea_popescu: understand - just because i'm the king and queen and can afford to leave whatever untold bitcoin fortunes lay fallow in whatever addresses for yeasrs at a time - does not give you the right to expect or demand such.
pete_dushenski: iirc mats did the last one of bbet
pete_dushenski: perhaps time for another audit ?
mircea_popescu: bitcoin is fungible. you hold a claim to a sum, not to any sort of otherwise specifiable coins.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whether 'can trace' or cannot, gambling with escrows == scamming
mircea_popescu: while i ran bitbet there was no specific guarantee made that "the coins" would be found in any place or not found in any place. this specifically, explicitly and intentionally ; against at least three different attempts to "community organize" and assorted nonsense.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519996 << this is altogether unclear. this "the people have the right to trace the coins" is a) still nonsense, bitcoin is not traceable ; b) still nonsense, forget the "dao" bullshit ; c) still nonsense, you trust the operator or you don't trust the operator.
mircea_popescu: i dunno the missionary, and don't care to remedy this.
asciilifeform: i haven't the intel. hence q.
mircea_popescu: is naggum people ? he's not in the wot. what standard shall we apply.
mircea_popescu: well, stuborn old fool, but sure, why the hell not.
asciilifeform: then to gulag.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 21:41 danielpbarron: seems to me the news is now broke-- whatever the details. Not that the qntra competitors are gonna link to trilema logs as their source.. but still
asciilifeform: the occasional imbecile does
mircea_popescu: though honestly much better reasons there.
mircea_popescu: they don't go around visiting north korea
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: aha. just recalled that i read a bio or two of streicher after your mention of him in the logs recently.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the strauss-kahn idiot also went willingly.
pete_dushenski: dun think they ever ended up in local journal, so prolly not
mircea_popescu: lol nice story though, guy worth 1/4bn is going to bother with 15k piddly us dollahs. this is almost as good as "we found a street hooker who's willing to swear she was a hotel maid and the european central bank prresident did vague things to her. honest!"
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem like the uk is declaring anything but "i'll hold her for you"
mircea_popescu: recall the days the british navy pressed rando usians into 10 year ship washing terms ?
mircea_popescu: re danielpbarron 's thing : yes, the texts do not support the reading of leviathan as demon. it is beast ; a sort of cow, or hippo or what have you.
pete_dushenski: jlo's sorta sandy-haired, shakira hit the bleach bottle
mircea_popescu: (to go quite into the depths of this : /me has always suspected all the "upsetting" stories about how hairy kim is were i nfact strategic plants from her media strategist. to make her acceptable, for being ~jewish)
mircea_popescu: very much like the obama trick, actually.
mircea_popescu: so that cvasi-jew may one day be accepted queen in their stead
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 13:38 mircea_popescu: phf and this because kim totally fucking won the assculture war.
mircea_popescu: ah babel, not bad example either.
pete_dushenski: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/peoplesdaily/article-3650344/Daughters-friends-partners-bizarre-relationship-men-human-size-plastic-dolls-China.html << in other chinese markets
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: tlp obviously went after this aspirational angle, even if he tripped over the patek philippe price points, as per http://www.contravex.com/2015/11/10/the-danger-of-unchecked-assumptions-or-the-surprising-depths-of-inequality/
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Maybe if they didn't want oppressed they would have kept the Ras Tafari Haille Sellaise alive?
mircea_popescu: the switch from representational to aspirational advertising is quite the direct reflection of the turning point.
mircea_popescu: kinda why the clinton ticket is such nonsense to anyone not-a-pleb. the one thing obvious is things can't continue - how to let steam out, where etc are debatable, but her utterly mccain-ish notion of "all is well" smacks of such senile delusion as can scarcely be put into words.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519893 << other than cunt already mentioned, "criminal behaviour", ie, male systematic intolerance. hence all the "terrorists" etc.
pete_dushenski: that was in the pool
BingoBoingo: <pete_dushenski> asciilifeform: there's no one better than chinese gymnasts atm. just watch the olympics.<< I thought black american hobbits were winning?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:11 trinque: I wonder if it's truly that the USA was *that* wealthy that it had this far to fall, that there is not yet starvation.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519897 << yes, the us was inconceivably wealthy. i nthat 1985-1990 half decade / 5yrplan it could have literally convinced the globe to do anything. this is ultimate wealth. sadly they decided to use that capital to convince the globe "saddam had nuclear weapons" and "green energy/blabla ecolotardisms and assorted danquayleisms" instead.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah, but not mockable News Roundup (TM)(R) marginal either. Next move prolly has a place.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 20:06 trinque: so really the interest rate diddles the margins of how fast the flood of money occurs
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519892 << nah, the central bank interest rate is the loss of the circuit. like, what s.mg takes out of eulora would be it.
BingoBoingo: I was tempted to write about the falling value of tits.
shinohai: Yeah, kinda weird. I started two submissions, then realized how dumb they sounded and canned 'em.
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: That thing your submission discusses was already withdrawn. Otherwise it would have been in the News Roundup Xtend
mircea_popescu: as per the quote, "sfondami tutta! prendi mia figlia! te la faccio sverginare!"
mircea_popescu: by and large if you wanted to start a cunt you pretty much had to have her mother spread her out for you.
mircea_popescu: girl that age would rather be caught sucking off pigs than sharing an intimate moment with her mother.
mircea_popescu: i don't think i've ever seen this in romania. or for that matter the states.
asciilifeform: well as per start of this subthread, nobody needs the ad, they just need the psychotronic weapon that makes them spread for idiots, removed.
asciilifeform: (do engl.-speaking folks even KNOW about tolerasty? well, they do now!)
mircea_popescu: which sunk the arabs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, and spain IS because at some point the extremadura hos were putting out ~for the arabs~
asciilifeform: eh, there was spain.
mircea_popescu: hence the whole protestantism thing. it delivered - they wiped the catholic tolerants.
asciilifeform: used to be the swede - went.
mircea_popescu: bitchez dun put out, beta male goes to get pomodori, spices and whatnot, maybe it gets her hot ; or otherwise arab boi goes to fucking sweden, where it's cold and it sucks, to rape the swede horsewomen.
mircea_popescu: the nonsensical myth of the "pure" knight is specific of what, england, northern france/belgium/luxemburg, and northern italy.
mircea_popescu: which is precisely why, widely speaking, economic progress happened in the west, with the sandyvagina'd women that didn't marry and didn't have kids, rather than i nthe east, or in china, with the loving and tolerant she-rabbits.
mircea_popescu: cunt is a major transaction medium, in point of fact ; seeing how sexual competition is the driver of economic move.
asciilifeform: we have same thing here in north argentina, it is produced via other means ('401k' gargle, etc) but otherwise similar.
mircea_popescu: because they need so much and it's not naturally occuring - hasta be produced. hence all the luchamos gargle.
mircea_popescu: that's the thing - female patience with ar loser IS fucking scarce
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: there's no one better than chinese gymnasts atm. just watch the olympics.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:58 asciilifeform: i am quite interested in the mechanisms whereby 1) goldmansachs usd are prevented from transmuting into turkey usd 2) plebes wielding turkey usd are restrained from putting unendurable pressure on supplies of limited resources, of the sort which lead to shortages and visible collapse.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519869 << the latter part you can see in my doomed efforts to get to a fucking club in buenos aires. exact same fucking mechanisms.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it will be fascinating to watch the gymnastics of chinese shills answerable to 'no one' on official paper, but to handlers in actual flesh, doing their 'independent' thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:46 asciilifeform: but it is not clear, at least to me, that debased currency is a ~cause~ rather than ~symptom~ of cultural decay.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519864 << i don't think it was ever contemplated in these here logs as anything but symptom.
asciilifeform: aha, quite the klein bottle here.
asciilifeform: (because they already own usa)
mircea_popescu: after the very sad experinece of japanese re speculation in new york, this is a reasonable manoeuver, macro speakling.
pete_dushenski: danielpbarron: wd on the latest blog post. made me realise i missed the last couple too!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519848 << mno, you're missing the chief significance : in practice it means "todos juntos defendiendo la soberania", ie, chinese have to pay more to buy it.
pete_dushenski: sort of like valet taking ferrari to pick up gf while hustler is in the 'sino
pete_dushenski: i recall the thread. it was persuasive as to the difficulty of the cut. in the end, 'scammer' is probably an accurate tag for bitbet's new owner.
asciilifeform: whether znort wants you to find out, or not.
asciilifeform: IF it was a close friend, who stiffed you, you MAY choose to write off the debt, forgive him.
asciilifeform: well when pete_dushenski is done being curious and puts in the bullet, i'll sit and listen.
asciilifeform: 'i put escrowed coin up my arse and then went to visit white house, where anal computer was confiscated and emptied' == scamming.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: 'i spent escrowed coins to cure sick grandmother' == scamming.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: by continuing the conversation, perhaps i'll find out just that. sick grandmother ? ransomware ?
pete_dushenski: anyways, i'm a bit hesitant to throw the 'scammer' label at znort, but there's definitely some fishy smells about.
pete_dushenski: while it might be obvious what goes on between nigerian scammers and their would-be prey, it never hurts to show the readers at home how their various attacks are thwarted.
asciilifeform: it is rather like talking to ninjashogun. i personally would like some of the time i wasted on it, back...
pete_dushenski: contravex seems like a better spot for the emails, qntra can pick it up after as nyooz
pete_dushenski: yesterday and into today. the conversation continues and will be published on contravex once it's all tied up.
pete_dushenski: well other than emails from znort requesting a bailout loan from ol' petey, sure.
asciilifeform: it is iirc the most recent mention of bbet here.
pete_dushenski: no one else in my l1 has rated znort, so mp is my only tether here, and a seemingly tenuous one at that.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: did the 'bbet payouts halted after shitfinex incident' thing resolve, btw ?
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-26#581551 http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-26#581552 http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-26#581554 << go figure that the logs have covered most every situation imaginable, to which i'd like to ask mircea_popescu specifically about znort987 : how much trust is he (she?) worth ?
asciilifeform: '... Who can remove his outer coat? Who can approach him with a double bridle? Who can open the doors of his face, With his terrible teeth all around? His rows of scales are his pride, Shut up tightly as with a seal; One is so near another That no air can come between them; They are joined one to another, They stick together and cannot be parted.' << dune sandworm!
asciilifeform: apportion him among the merchants?'
asciilifeform: 'Can you draw out Leviathan[a] with a hook, Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower? Can you put a reed through his nose, Or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he make many supplications to you? Will he speak softly to you? Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him as a servant forever? Will you play with him as with a bird, Or will you leash him for your maidens? Will your companions make a banquet of him? Will they
asciilifeform: ( since gabriel_laddel thread i can never again be certain, whether typo is typo or deep barb of some sort )
asciilifeform: well odin did slay the yottin
trinque: what does the lord's word say on bigfoot?
asciilifeform: eh i suppose it is no worse than the rest of it.
asciilifeform: for the record.
asciilifeform: but i will say that there ~is~, to me.
asciilifeform: understand, if elephant is being devoured by ants, it does not necessarily follow that anthill is a 'great place to live' for elephant - or lion, or the other animals watching.
asciilifeform: provided yer born there
asciilifeform: i was recently reading about 'oilite', a type of self-lubricating bronze, that is still made in usa. the factory where it was originally produced, owned by chrysler corp., lived in the '30s. today it is a ruin, rats live in it. oilite is still made, in usa, but for how long - i have nfi, at some point it will become difficult to find people who will follow the ritual (yes, to savages, industry is ritual) and it will sail off to china
asciilifeform: there was a... nearly incomprehensibly titanic 'battery charge' of ingenuity, sanity, and plain simple 'ant' (vs 'grasshopper') accumulated delayed gratification, that is now being maggoted through.
trinque: what a pathetic thing if so
trinque: I wonder if it's truly that the USA was *that* wealthy that it had this far to fall, that there is not yet starvation.
asciilifeform: the particular spot, understand, where delusion turns to scorched flesh.
trinque: not whether it's sucked back up
trinque: central bank interest rate is afaik the rate it loans to other banks, which then themselves may speak a certain multiple of money into existence by virtue of holding the central bank's voodoo
asciilifeform: we have nearly all of these, here.
asciilifeform: another - limits on what can be purchased, where, in what qty.
asciilifeform: another is - also done here - to confiscate savings.
asciilifeform: trinque: there are many ways to keep folks from putting undue strain on shrinking industrial base. one is to simply prevent saving.
asciilifeform: not much of a spoiler if i say that the devaluations did not work! tyres and other seemingly mundane 'shop' goods still had to be allocated in gnarly and entirely nonmarkety ways.
trinque: in this case the average consumer isn't saving shit. they're paying on house loans, student loans, so on.
asciilifeform: so the cash had to be collected from people , in occasional mass batches, to relieve strain on scarce supply of x-en.
asciilifeform: which might otherwise strain already painfully limited supply of, e.g., auto tyres.
asciilifeform: trinque do you know, e.g., why devaluations of the ruble were a bi-decennial, regular thing in su ?
trinque: but this is fiction when they set at near zero or below
trinque: it was supposed to be central bank interest rates that sucked money out of the system
asciilifeform: i am quite interested in the mechanisms whereby 1) goldmansachs usd are prevented from transmuting into turkey usd 2) plebes wielding turkey usd are restrained from putting unendurable pressure on supplies of limited resources, of the sort which lead to shortages and visible collapse.
asciilifeform: but it is not clear, at least to me, that debased currency is a ~cause~ rather than ~symptom~ of cultural decay.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-11 16:16 mircea_popescu: as it dislodges the meat robots from their comforts and forces them into towns.
asciilifeform: (it was not wholly impossible to 'leak' pre-btc, either..)
asciilifeform: nor do i have any notion of what ultimately controls the rate of such leakage.
asciilifeform: i and anyone else can point to a few obvious 'financial memory leaks' - e.g., folks borrowing against 'their' house , buying btc, and rocketing off to mars.
asciilifeform: i.e. i am satisfied that there ~is~ one, but have nfi re particulars (hormesis, say, is a thing.)
asciilifeform: the relationship between the 'goldman sachs printed another trillion' kind of inflation, and this weimar one, is - at least to my savage and primitive mind - a murky one
asciilifeform: the moar interesting parameter is , if you will, 'meta' inflation, it being the rate at which the soup quotient in the soup cans shrinks, the rate at which respectable folk eat soup from cans to begin with - climbs, the plastic in the machine gears increases to 100%, etc.
a111: Logged on 2013-12-25 21:05 mircea_popescu: Itzhak is a respectable moneylender in the small neighbourhood of Fool's Crossing.
asciilifeform: what of it. just as meaningless, to office plankton, as the diff b/w being sentenced to 100 vs 200 years without parole.
asciilifeform: most of the printolade, at least in so far as is visible to public naked eye, went into real estate racket
asciilifeform: rather than from some novel bush-era malady.,
a111: Logged on 2016-08-12 19:03 mircea_popescu: "alf's idea of a think he has no sensation access nor cares to reasses to has remained unchanged over the interval the foregoing held"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1519816 << not this, but simply observation that usa has been slowly sinking, since - at the very latest, even - fdr.
asciilifeform: but usually it ends with 'and then i drank myself to sleep in front of tv.'
asciilifeform: now ~sometimes~ the story ends with 'judge found that 'quiet enjoyment' includes 1,001 crying babies at 3am' or the like.
asciilifeform: two available resolutions to this, either four dudes also said 'shut yer trap or there will be problems', and ~everybody~ shut, or...
asciilifeform: the story never seems to end with 'i filed suit # .... and then four dudes in black van came and told me to withdraw or there will be problems'
asciilifeform: 'nuffin, watched tv, sad there sad'
asciilifeform: methinks this is simply the 'tech supports keeps you waiting for 5 minutes', feynman's postbox, bit.
asciilifeform: what's the case # ?
asciilifeform: re quoted bit, the 'they stopped giving out form' is as questionable as 'nsa bugged my house, but i have no photo'