asciilifeform: i only have objection to the latter.
asciilifeform: i never got the 'old coin' thing.
mircea_popescu: cuz deedbot keeps its own accounts. no mining. they're not even reported.
asciilifeform: why the hell would anyone mine these, other than if his mother dropped him as a child.
asciilifeform: attempting to bill the gym per-minute, with a 0.1 fee tx every minute, would be braindamaged though.
trinque: I might even lose it all and close shop, and then no gym for you
trinque: you paid your gym bill in advance for the month; you get to come in for the whole damn month
mircea_popescu: well then!
asciilifeform: i also do not care what the other one licked if i actually grasp subj. e.g., i don't give a fuck that it produced ada.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 03:03 mircea_popescu: it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538962 << the way this knot is cut is that there are 2 usg, the one that delivers my mail every couplea weeks to the house across the street, and the other one. and i don't give a flying fuck what the dumb one licked.
thestringpuller: trinque: from my understanding working there, the payments were offloaded based on bank.
trinque: lets dance around everywhere because we don't understand how actual payments occur in the world, and are used to criticizing the ass-clowns in the bitcoin space.
asciilifeform: it is a plainly dumb thing to do from their pov.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 03:20 mircea_popescu: this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.
mircea_popescu: deedbot is intended to have a wallet so i can deposit a whole btc with it and then pay it a little bit whenever rather than have to send multiple transactions. THIS particular aspect of "microtransactions" is rather opposite to the common conception thereof.
mircea_popescu: the only problem here asciilifeform is that you have a firm opinion about an item you've not bothered to understand ; and the opinion is spit-glued on what may be the effigy of a live hyena except it;'s a stone gargoyle.
asciilifeform: if i wanted to pay 50% fee, i'd go to western motherfucking union.
trinque: you know, *paying for things* solves a great deal of the world's got-something-for-showing-up problems
asciilifeform: it can go and sadly rust somewhere else, in some other fool's garage.
mircea_popescu: this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.
trinque is still writing response to earlier question, but who are you to say what the price of anything is?
asciilifeform: but to revisit subj, i suggest that 'micro' roughly would be any payment where the coefficient of fee / payload is in the neighbourhood of (or even above!) 1.0.
mircea_popescu: there's alternatively "selfpriming projectile" vs "firing mechanism"
mircea_popescu: mortar is not defined by that criteria. there is cannon with narrower ratio than mortar.
asciilifeform: y'know, like 'mortar' used to refer to a cannon where the caliber is within order of magnitude of the length.
thestringpuller: i see this as a deframentation problem than anythin (hence why i also consolidate inputs in an address before they become dust)
asciilifeform: i propose that 'micro' is any payment where the tx fee is within an order of magnitude of the payload.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform less than the price of a working nuclear submarine with all the trims.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 02:58 mircea_popescu: what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.
mircea_popescu: in any case, just think how cool it'd have been if i could have paid all these eulora noobs getting bitcents via bot directly.
trinque: in the future
mircea_popescu: eulora provides a convenient way to do this ; but there's no rule one gotta use THAT particular solution.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller the whole point is that if i want to pay deedbot 100 satoshi for whatever, i'd rather have this as an offchain txn than as a blockchain spam tx
trinque: with a one megabyte block to serve the whole world's 10min of txn, your groceries *are* a fucking micropayment.
thestringpuller: there's a reason I don't pay for my groceries in pennies...
mircea_popescu: moreover, nobody said the deedbot wallet is to be restricted to micropayments. that's obviously the angle to solve, from an engineering pov ; but to then on that infer that it is ONLY for such is silly.
trinque: the public ledger did not cancel private accounting
mircea_popescu: anyway. for one thing - transaction fees are micropayments ; like it or not, that's what they are, in the exact sense contemplated for deedbot.
mircea_popescu: but in any case the same tongue that licked tcp/ip also licked all of washington dc, not to mention etc.
mircea_popescu: you'd expect he'd be unable to get out of bed. i guess there's missing ingredients in the formula.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: seems a significant chunk of disputes arise from misapprehension rather than a genuine difference of opinion an' what's worse, seems to me the trend is upwards.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.
mircea_popescu is seriously contemplating the problem of subtleties.
trinque: I even said once "so then build Visa on bitcoin"
mircea_popescu: sure ; but i don't think trinque was proposing the purpose of bitcoin is micropayments.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538943 << didn't the 'cup of coffee' thread happen long before i showed up even ?
shinohai: Oh wait, that's the guy that got phished and scammed out of like 1.8 million I think.
shinohai: I wonder what are the Bitpay people on schedule for, gonna give a speech on how to get hacked?
mircea_popescu: o look, there'sa "coinbr founder".
mircea_popescu: anyway. argentina is a fine place for it, more derpy posers per square mile here than almost anywhere in the world.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160910/#56 << what, so i'd be the only bitcoiner there ?
mod6: again, don't wanna speak for the man; however, don't think he has any at this point.
mod6: well, i don't wanna speak for ben_vulpes, but iirc he's read most of them if not all; maybe just didn't get around to signing for lack of time because of baby, and running company.
trinque: no deedbot for you then.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 23:24 mircea_popescu: change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't have any vulpes sigs either..
trinque: a very brief overview is that there is one deposit address, encrypted OTPs are archived elsewhere as they are sent to transactors, then deeded, and withdrawals involve a human walk over the account history before dispatching a txn.
thestringpuller: trinque: store bitcoin like you would nuclear waste. the true asciilifeform method!
trinque: could think of it like bitcoin is a corrosive that *will* find its way out of the container if it can
mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/eb09ab99ab8cfa8ea8f5c09effa2c430/tumblr_myizcpkiAy1stdt0mo1_250.gif
trinque: more redundancy the better. these facilities end up being what's available on a particular gossipd node, as I see it
shinohai: What were specs for a bot wallet anyway? There was a cruddy one written by gribble's author I started to hook to trb one time but never finished
mircea_popescu: this is shockingly useful, like those corner ramps disabled people wanted put in and then everyone just loved them
thestringpuller: oh man i forgot to put my homage to the dreamcast up before 9/9 ended.
mircea_popescu: trinque if / when you implement the wallet thing you can even charge for this. i'd pay!
mircea_popescu: inb4 "there's no way to unsubscribe ha-ha!"
mircea_popescu: there was something else but now i forget wtf
trinque: inb4 oh shit I gotta add threads to the rssatron nao
phf: well, i think that a111 has only one responsibility, and that's searching though log, whatever else is added is superfluous, but $s's been internalized by, among other people, asciilifeform. i'd rather not see "$s ... ??? ffs!"
mircea_popescu: deedbot got !!, jhvh1 got !~ and further bots will get further of these until we run out and move on to #? etc.
mircea_popescu: change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.
mircea_popescu: "now has the honor of having" ? eh cmon!
shinohai: The Bickening II
a111: 2016-09-09 <shinohai> also o/ thestringpuller
shinohai: also o/ thestringpuller
vinimore: Shinohai! you're the guy that I'm looking for!
jhvh1: thestringpuller: shinohai was last seen in #trilema 24 minutes and 9 seconds ago: <shinohai> "geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"
ben_vulpes off to contemplate burning another fortune chasing a larger fortune
mircea_popescu: eh, considering where you live, it's prolly in the tap water by now
mircea_popescu: swallowing cufflinks accidentally not on the castor oil list of bad girl behaviours
mircea_popescu: jurov you might have noticed it's not even in the contact list anymore.
mircea_popescu: trinque but ideally it just pms the subscribers see
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform possibly more often as time goes by ; because the problem of sorting things by topics is becoming more pressing.
ben_vulpes simply subscribed to the trilema comments feed
trinque: actually, can add !!subscribe for L1 which adds to RSS list, and then can be used for this or anything else that arises
trinque: I can just throw it in the RSS list
mircea_popescu: btw, speaking of this : any chance one of the bot masters wants to add a "subscribe to comments" option ? whereby i go !~subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/ and it pings me whenever there's new ones ?
mircea_popescu: "kyle go clean your room this instant!" "sorry mom, i... i... i malloc'd my hands and i think there were some double free's in there or something!"
mircea_popescu: and another myth shatters.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 22:00 mircea_popescu: they recently discovered that it's quite likely alzheimer's is a prion based infectious disease,
asciilifeform: and who noticed that the reversal worked mechanically, but somehow ~0 spermatozoons made it to the other end.
mircea_popescu: did i drop the "prionic" alt-explanation in log or no ? i... can't recall ?
asciilifeform: trinque, ben_vulpes : the first tipoff that one can immunologically zap own spermatozoids came not from alzheimer's patients, but from folks attempting to have vasectomy reversed
trinque: iirc there's speculation alzheimers *is* autoimmune
mircea_popescu: you could just store all the sperm
asciilifeform: ahahaha nice , asciilifeform doesn't need to crank the logtron, other folks will do it !111
ben_vulpes: i did eventually run the citation down, 'twas some less than thirty old men with beginning signs of alzheimers who realized they all had vasectomies
a111: Logged on 2016-01-08 00:12 asciilifeform: and even not considering this absurdity, you would have same problem as vasectomy patient (the sperm gets reabsorbed and your immune system begins to generate antibodies against it. with bonus measurable extra risk of alzheimer's)
jurov: ben_vulpes: unreleased sperm eventually just decays in the balls
mircea_popescu likes the idea.
mircea_popescu: "the poors", check it out.
mircea_popescu: and all the resulting children can be called satoshi!
mircea_popescu: anyway, think of all the great stuff blockchain technologies allows, guise! you could have like, a satoshi dice based aviator's club, whereby the men all put their house keys in a pile and the women pick from there as previously, BUT whether the dick works or not is now blockchain lottery based!
ben_vulpes: heh i actually remember when it was! 'diamond age' has a great gag where the poors with shitty ocular implants have to suffer viral ads all day and go insane
ben_vulpes: jurov: myeah i gave up on the cyberpunk dream of technology in my body a loooong time ago.
ben_vulpes: jurov: upside of the plastic is that it is porous and doesn't clog
mircea_popescu: btw jurov mind protesting the heteronormative pronz a little bit, i need something to counterbalance alf!
trinque: mircea_popescu: hey that has a handle you can pull, or so I gather
trinque: penises, how do they work
ben_vulpes: the cum-pipe, whatever that is.
ben_vulpes: anyways, there's this porous not particularly bioreactive plastic some people think it fine to inject into the urethra
mircea_popescu: if you keep scraping eventually you reach the outside you know.
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, the expression also was, "to get caught".
mircea_popescu: hopefully b v gets daughters, they get to be 16, call weekly "dad... i'm in jail... because i'm pregnant..."
ben_vulpes: "what was the first rule? DON'T GET CAUGHT!"
mircea_popescu: out of about thirty agencies, five respond. mp is awestruck by just how retarded the people involved are.
mircea_popescu: oh and in other-other news : mp decides maybe he wants to turn http://trilema.com/2016/just-call-me-annah/ into an art movie ; proceeds to call buenos aires studios and modelling agencies.
mircea_popescu: (there was a cold snap, and that place drew just about 19 amps consistently for days, i'm pretty sure)
asciilifeform: or do these, also, do something exciting and unexpected in the land of the pampas cat.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i gotta ask, did the breaker blow ?
asciilifeform: mod6: i'd expect some missing flesh then, neh ?
asciilifeform: do they usually?!
mod6: mircea_popescu: your lady's hand looked ghastly. she should get to slap the first born of all of the industrial leaders in .ar.
mircea_popescu: but in other news, took delivery of proper copper cord ; should be interesting to notice how this one never ever blows up.
asciilifeform: begs the question, why not simply communicate over this magical submarine cable to begin with ?
asciilifeform: and FOR FUCKS SAKE, rsa ciphertext LEAKS THE PUBKEY
asciilifeform: just like the idiot 'tamper seals' that are trivially broken every day, not only by usg but by turd world pissant secret services, merely by penetrating the ENVELOPE.
asciilifeform: and if i can describe (and i can) how the scheme can be broken WITHOUT breaking the cipher, then the cipher is decorative.
asciilifeform: in approx. the sage's own words, 'piss in one hand, argument irrelevance in the other, see which one weighs more.'
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu's favorite rhetorical device is 'this is not relevant.' hey, it's the man's own blog, who am i to say that he has to consider my observations relevant. but this nonsense won't keep rainwater out of a tent, much less ft meade.
asciilifeform: (picture a weapon that kills the same POPULATION PERCENTAGE of the firer's army as of the enemy. it would be quite useless. any weapon requires asymmetry to work.)
asciilifeform: E can ding A and B for less cost to himself than they incur from said ding. which is the elementary particle from which ddos is made.
asciilifeform: as it stands, the cost to E of replaying any or all of the packets between A and B, or reordering, is 0.
asciilifeform: and came to conclusion that there is a massive hole in the scheme sketched out in subj link, that i can drive a maersk cargo liner through.
mircea_popescu: ok this multi-comment thing is getting out of hand. why not just think the thing through and say it once.
mircea_popescu: not even just how long. it's just a sort of coupling. "these two have a solution to us army general problem"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger understand what the problem is here. it's not that you give away the secret number 40084059534. it's that you give away the fact that you and X both somehow live in a world where ++ means something.
mircea_popescu: it gets worse, the concept of "incremental" is undefined.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: there is nothing simple about it.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 15:12 asciilifeform: it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538479 << wouldn't a simple nonce prevent against replay attacks (if you can call them that), tho? or did you refer to a case where the enemy attains the actual privkey of the station?
mod6: <+shinohai> see >>> http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << holy shit! (btw)
mod6: i apparently need to read your blog more, at least, on the specifics of lisp-cpu via verilog & fpga
mod6: i'll have to reread all of this stuff; i have difficulty with a mental model of this. but i do follow the detail points.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538451 << it's good you acknowledge that, 'cause very time i want to point out "where's your $spec for $x guyz" i feel kinda shit 'cause i should do more, myself. which is a point. and yet the scandalocity remains!
asciilifeform: this is the basic nothing-to-allcomers principle. for wot - everything. for rando - NOTHING. not even 'challenge packet' or whatever.
asciilifeform: *determine whether
asciilifeform: enemy must NOT have the ability to determine that an arbitrary ip contains a gossip node.
asciilifeform: ('because he does not know the ip to ask' is an idiot answer. you don't even need to be at ft meade, Framedragger's scanner could easily be modified to send a challenge req to entire ipv4 space every couple of hours.)
asciilifeform: and violates the principle of nothing-to-allcomers.
asciilifeform: earlier in thread, mircea_popescu pointed out - correctly - that signature is not the only form of cryptoauthentication, and that there is also challenge-response, a la deedbot etc.
asciilifeform: whereas 'attribution for no one' is the current net and whoever wants it, already has it.
asciilifeform: (attribution 'for us but not for them'.)
asciilifeform: mod6: presently it is a machine which contains a box labeled ???, which is the answer to a mathematical problem.
mod6: right. i think this whole topic is totally over my head these days.
asciilifeform: it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.
asciilifeform: phf: aha, the 'for' item.
asciilifeform: for so long as other stations can reliably communicate with it amidst arbitrary levels of enemy shitflooding
asciilifeform: what i've referred to as 'station key' is simply a nonspoofable substitute for the ip address.
asciilifeform: simply because something was said in the castle of mod6 , does not mean that it was he who said it.
asciilifeform: there is 'mod6' and 'castle of mod6'.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 14:51 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538437 << think of the current separation between ~people~ and ~geography~.
asciilifeform: ( and if i were satisfied that the problems are even ~separable~, i would not call them problems )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538426 << phf has own, and i have, and possibly other folks. but there remain unsolved problems.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 15:26 phf: btw is it possible to chosen-ciphertext attack gpg if it were to sit on the wire?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-26 13:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529651 << ~tcp~ is evil, and i will kill it with my own hands. at least in the sense where i killed, e.g., git.
mod6: phf: ah, indeed then, we should rework it with what we've since discussed and rethought since 2015 or whenever, and see if a prototyping process can begin.
phf: we had a thread about it two weeks ago, where the conclusion was that gossipd as written in the only available spec has all kinds of problems and shouldn't be implemented/used
mod6: more than anything, i just want to be able to contribue a bit better to these gossipd discussions - which will be a vital part of the infrastructure.
mod6: very much appreciated, and my apologies if the original is still on point.
mod6: i'd have to dig it up, but i thought there was a trilema that outlined the 'spec' back a while ago.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, is there such a thing as a gossipd spec even ? what's the current canonical version ?
mod6: haha. indeed, hopefully will rid myself of these labors someday soon.
shinohai: I take it your female java shadow isn't there?
mod6: but, maybe the first step, to recognize Framedragger, is to update the spec. there has been much discussion about this, and maybe I'm having a hard time keeping all of the details in my head.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?
shinohai: I agree with trinque tho that V has a place in /usr/bin/local of the future
mod6: oh wait, forgot about the wonky-fan
mod6: and mine can be used, 100% in the same way. im not even sure that i fully agree that mine should do what it does. you and I both, seperately have wrestled with this thought.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538037 << lel what has mircea_popescu been drinking...? << It is an intersting thought; a distributed V, which rails against the complaints of "omfg another centralized piece of equipment!!11"
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present. << Sounds fair. Thanks for outlining this.
asciilifeform: mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys.
mod6: Good news from lastnight: Was able to do some polishing and wrench turning to get the makefiles to utilize the pressed source in src/
thestringpuller: there no news mr. PeterL
asciilifeform: in other noose, koch rolled out his 'wks' turd, http://www.golem.de/news/web-key-service-openpgp-schluessel-ueber-https-verteilen-1609-123194.html
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: dunno, when folks post pr0nz i generally picture that it exemplifies what gets them going. or at least isnt wholly unappetizing. then again we also have BingoBoingo's material.
mircea_popescu: though i suppose it should be a bunch of tiny azn dicks rather than one big one... hm...
asciilifeform: the 'black deflorators' thing or what was it
asciilifeform: the new mines.
asciilifeform: 'Lastly, it must be noted that there hasn't been any significant amount of these specimens on the market in approximately 25 years, and they are often only found in old collections. Recently I was informed that a Korean mining company has started a large commercial operation at Corocoro, specifically mining for Copper, leaving little possibility that more of these specimens will available in the future, or at least until the mining op
asciilifeform: dry in the sun.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: clean with flux remover.
thestringpuller: Framedragger: just use apple's bluetooth earwaxphones << Glad I'm not the only one who discovered despite who clean I try to keep the headphones. Earwax gunks up into the metal screens and inevitably fucks up the sound.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: CoroCoro Comic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoroCoro_Comic>; # corocoro hashtag on Twitter: <https://twitter.com/hashtag/corocoro>; Saturday: Pokémon Sun & Moon - CoroCoro Reveals + Zygarde ...: <http://www.serebii.net/news/2016/11-June-2016.shtml>
asciilifeform: the surface copper is gone.
mircea_popescu: also, pure coper comes native, if you live in a land that doesn't suck you can just get yourself a chunk from the local cave.
mircea_popescu: so shitty alloy. which is the point.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: copper with no strain relief will harden and snap just like any other metal.
PeterL: and if you buy cheapo beef, there is lots of fat drippings to make candles with!
asciilifeform: PeterL: funnily enough, the tallow candle is wireless device, so the imbeciles ~will~ get their wish.
PeterL: asciilifeform don't you know the future is wireless power? We won't need all this copper running through our houses once we make the *tech breakthrough*!
asciilifeform: Framedragger: backbone is usable to the extent it can simulate radio.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: that's what i'm worried about, you may have to burn IP, too. and i'm all up for mesh networks and post nuclear radio, but kinda sucks that the whole internet backbone may be incompatible with proper gossipd, gotta admit.
asciilifeform: shoot it in the head, pour cement.
Framedragger: [like, *of course* the only reason we want a spec which allows for data in initial syn packet is for shitphones to be able to load google ads quicker. use for security???! nowai]
asciilifeform: Framedragger: not only tcp, but the horse it rode in on. whole thing must burn.
Framedragger: [OT just for the record, it seems that rfc 7413 ("tcp fast open") won't do any good because (lo and behold) not only would it not save against syn floods, it'd actually introduce new attacks (2.2 and beyond). and existing mitigation techniques may not work. gotta love those people. yeah, fuck tcp.]
asciilifeform: it will come back into the habitations of poorfags
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even in usa they banned
mircea_popescu: now they want to mandate sprinklers.