mircea_popescu: and seeing how the "irc" side is vaguely slated for replacement by the end of the decade ; and it should be bouncer-mediated anyway, just plaintext-net works as an "irc"
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#960 << the question is not without merit. with irc and rsa one should be all set ; seeing how trinque is working to put bitcoin payments into deedbot ; the bots read lines and etc...
mircea_popescu: careful you don't follow covertress on the path to housewifry, jew.
mircea_popescu: so i guess that's ANOTHER F for adlai ; to celebrate his first day back to "all day ircing".
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 09:23 adlai: phf: speaking of 2nd-personality-gods, have you/rfriend ever heard of jaynes' bicameral mind theory?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#656 << which, of course, was discussed in logs as well as http://trilema.com/2014/the-bicameral-world-in-one-room-the-city-dump-in-the-other-room-the-starred-restaurant-do-these-talk-to-each-other-read-on-to-find-out/
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#627 << you failing to read the manual doesn't make the scalar stupid or useless. F.
mircea_popescu: (male virginity, in this context, is resolved strictly through taking ownership of women and other things ; not through "having sex", especially if that's practiced as some sort of mutual play)
mircea_popescu: these aren't the same thing ; even if admittedly the virginal youth is ill equipped to see the difference.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#608 << this merely confuses (and counterproductively) the self-doubt of the intelligent virgin boy with the self-confusion of the nut.
mircea_popescu: "liberals" are insane by simple virtue of being liberals, working on the exact same orwellian rails ; and "transgender" derps by simple virtue of gender confusion. a bunch of indian peons dying in a stampede aren't insane, partly because they're too poor to be insane, partly because they're too stupid to be insane. admitting these can even be distinct.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:31 adlai: the definition isn't watertight yet, since it counts somebody who starves due to famine as crazy... but then again, mircea_popescu counts poor somalians as stupid, so ~shrug~
a111: Logged on 2016-07-11 12:27 mircea_popescu: "If you are white, no positive, active role is left to you. Either you accommodate yourself to the unreasonable, or you play out your life in some futile back alley. You are doomed to this by the disgraceful history of your kind. Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not, but it is the way things are." << from another schmuck with a nobel prize.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#588 << they're just inept. crazy discusses the subjective reflection of reality ; not much else. can die as perfectly sane inept losers. the quoted south african ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-11#1500956 ) is a fine example of such. you can equally well be insane, a la arthur blair. "oh, i am an english socialist, though socialsm is necessarily the end of being english, and i'm aware of t
mircea_popescu: evidently, not all crazy requires medical support ; and often the nuts are quite subclinical. but anyway.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:25 adlai: to pick a concrete example, if that alice0meta thinks she's a dead person's tulpa, that in and of itself, doesn't make her out of touch with consensus reality, any more than some people believe in http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_life_of_jesus/the_empty_tomb/jn20_01.html
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#575 << yes, actually, it does. identity confusion is literally being crazy. it's one thing to have notions about supernatural forces which may help you through shamanism or going to church. it's another to believe you're "really" the other gender etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:20 trinque: crazy is a blunt term for "woefully inaccurate self/world model compared to others" but certainly exists.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#568 << if this were true we'd be keeping most of the us in white cells.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << fwiw there's no psychotic ouverture of bipolar. 1st case mostly sounds as usgistan "let's call it something"/
mircea_popescu: just as well could say "and when i was three i put toddling things aside and took my place as king of the walking"
mircea_popescu: but notice that the child "learning" to, eg, walk, is hardly something YOU give it. from outside like.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha delusion lolk we had the 'man spends life learning to be a mouse' thread already, n times
mircea_popescu: that it provides you with the delusion of learning to match the societal hallucination of "progress" doth not mean it moved.
mircea_popescu: this does not settle the point.
mircea_popescu: the brain is built to be maximally static.
asciilifeform: see the 'housewife sanity' thread.
asciilifeform: as the jet.
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as it's a bridge, use it for car traffic rather than as a wind foil ; and pray the architect wasn't a whore fucking drunks. that's about all.
mircea_popescu: collapses, the better it's built the less it collapses and that finally age conquers all.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 phf: psychotic episode, later diagnosed as bipolar after ~~1 year of weekly mushroom use. split personality after one mushroom use (guy believes that the second person inside of him is god). psychotic episode after weed/lsd combination. obviously all diagnosed and hospitalized at one point or another
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#562 << let's instead talk of bridges. badly designed brigde will collapse in rush hour. or maybe not in rush hour. or maybe while closed for repairs, because heavy winds. or maybe just of old age. or perhaps for other reasons. however you model psychoactives - as cars, or as winds ; however you model other people being assholes, cars, winds - fact remains that the less it's used the less it
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:14 adlai: that's a tricky claim. i've taken much, much, much larger doses than the ones that (indirectly!) led to the aforementioned bad situations. i think YGFS50 depends much more on "set and setting" than on a molecule's shape and headcount
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#554 << how to correctly allocate which doses correspond to which effects is, of course, a science reserved for the truly heroic.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 ben_vulpes: i'm going to go out on a limb and doubt that there's enough data even on variation in human sensitivity to drugs much less by class and genotype to even be making claims about "LD50"
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#547 << wait, what ? you somehow believe the same helping of paracetamol kills all people or somesuch ? because what, you've seen on tv that the same gunshot hole kills all people ?
mircea_popescu: or are you the weird sort that assaults the woman for cheating rather than the dude she's cheating with.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:11 adlai: the more nuanced answer recognizes that i was hospitalized as a direct result of an argument, which would not have happened if i'd left the house with a sweater that morning. so... don't forget to bring a towel?
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:56 adlai: what's with all the shitty drugs? i step away from irc-every-day for a couple months, suddenly everybody's fiending alcohol, tobacco, and firearms^H^H^Hcaffeine?
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#532 << i was dry until about halfway through the log, at which point went and poured myself some cognac. this stuff promotes drunkedness, tis clear.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#530 << motherfucker. one day i'm going to find the lame dumbass who told bored middleaged women they have any business involving themselves in the political process and feed him to baby turtles.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:24 phf: one of the reasons i went with cmucl originally is because it has known tight memory behavior and sbcl dev equally famous stance that "memory is cheap", which, for the case of keeping log in memory, was discouraging
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#527 << this is such idiocy. what cheap. seriously, it's cheap ? any of these jokers ever stood down system with tb ram or what exactly are they on about.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#518 << i dunno what school you went to ; but think about the geometric meaning of tan for a second.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:08 mod6: fwiw, nice tit(s) on the blindfolded trilema girl
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#509 << thanks! and remember - September, the International Women Discarded As Garbage Day! do your bit to raise awareness!
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:54 adlai always feels some sorrow when people (lowercase 'P') faceplant over these hurdles
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:46 phf: adlai: same code and data that was taking up ~~500mb with cmucl blew up lispworks to 4gb, and now blowing up sbcl to 1gb, which results in heap exhaustion errors, despite the fact that there's still extra heap available
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#413 << the logs dun scale huh. shall we have to introduce per-line fees ? :D
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:43 covertress: mircea_pepescu: i had wished to convey Patrick's offer to represent you against the EF.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#402 << i have nfi who "patrick" is, but if it's that douchebag murck involved with the vesseness "bitcoin foundation" scam, he has a lot bigger problems than idly posturing around ethereum's corpse/propellerhat
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:45 adlai: i thought the EFF was suing mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-12#1520239 << the entry point of this mysterious "our dinner 26-sept".
asciilifeform: remember, remember, the nth of shitember, the deathray treason and plot! i know of no reason, why deathray treason, should ever be forgot!11111111
mircea_popescu: countless in the sense of exactly 0.
phf: "dhs prevents countless terrorist attacks each year, which we are not at liberty to discuss as they will compromise ongoing and future investigations"
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:33 asciilifeform: 'While details of Cook’s actions and the alleged threat have not been publicly released, law enforcement officials have said they believe the threat was real, but has been stopped by Cook’s arrest. “There’s been no evidence to suggest the involvement of anyone else locally and no evidence that I’m aware of that indicates anyone is on their way here,” Gibbons said. “The intervention happened early enough to prevent this
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#377 << because what'd they say, that they believe themselves useless and a scourge upon the local community ?
mircea_popescu: this kinda follows from definitions, and moreover ... the odds, montresor.
mircea_popescu: "there are 9 4096 bit strings for any given privkey to which you can not encrypt or decrypt."
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 04:24 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al: in other not-quite-noose, 'To every pair p, q of distinct primes there correspond 9 positive integers x no larger than pq such that x^c ≡ x mod (pq) for every odd positive integer c. Therefore these 9 messages x are unconcealable in any Rivest-Shamir-Adleman public key cryptosystem which has the product pq for its encoding modulus.'
asciilifeform: or rather 1st
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where did ytou even get the turd from ?
mircea_popescu: tell you what, nothing the us did this year compares. what the fuck is with the pinoy.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck.
asciilifeform: 'One thing is clear: If the financial services industry is to embrace a new technology, it cannot be one in which mischief and mistakes are immutable and fraudsters can defend their actions on spurious ideological grounds. '
asciilifeform: 'But if blockchain is to move beyond cryptocurrency and lab experiments to real and profitable deployments, we need to challenge conventional orthodoxy and rethink the role of absolute immutability. Perhaps we will then soon be able to read more about blockchain’s achievements rather than its potential.' << l0l!!
mircea_popescu: anyway. i guess unintentionally the problem with pictographics ("it hides things from you! they came bite you in ass latere!") was yet again, for the uncountablyest time, shown in all its nude glory.
mircea_popescu: "and if your mother had any taste you wouldn't be here."
mircea_popescu: this is "if chicken were spherical and in vacuum"++. "if building cvadrature of circle is trivial, then here's a drawing for adding angles"
asciilifeform: in re the chickens, i cannot disagree, they are clucking not so far from where i sit, at the local 'university'
mircea_popescu: maybe. /me didn't know the man.
asciilifeform: in part it was. it is how he came up with the terrifyingly ugly 20-equations-in-20-unknowns thing
mircea_popescu: the problem here discussed is when the fucking chickens are shown an impossible object and they cluck right along, "oh, look how great".
mircea_popescu: that's not the problem here discussed.
asciilifeform: ( recall, herr maxwell was quite unable to visualize the system he worked with, without resorting to mechanical - yes - gears and pulleys )
asciilifeform: one of these days i'd like to learn who rotted j. c. maxwell's brain, and with what
mircea_popescu: because the man's brain wasn't rotten by virtuality, and fetishism, and ustardism.
mircea_popescu: phf more fucking importantly, it contains no hidden bits. such as "how did you build the square"
mircea_popescu: "we are the premiere science and technology institution in the world. and we can't light a lightbulb. both of these for the exact same reason - we "learned" from wikipedia, ted talks, and other inept contrivances."
phf: euclid's elements are literate, if you look at the extant copies, they have drawings of shapes with labels, but all the details are otherwise in text
mircea_popescu: no but really. "given the circle cvadrature, isn't this escherian trestlework ever so informative ?"
asciilifeform: euclid nervously smokes in the corner
mircea_popescu: e truthiness and just follow the hand", such pinnacle of achievement in imbecility, and try to fucking draw the outer square yourself.
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#348 << it's entirely unclear to me why you think the hieroglyph is noteworthy. sure, in the context of "let's draw hyeroglyphs", it's as good as many other alternatives. in the context of "let's describe basic trigonometry", it's not particularly useful. and you'll realise this the moment you break out of tedtalktardism "i'll rely on the margins of the box as drawn by magic hand for absolut
mircea_popescu: he doesn't have a toolbox ; but he does have all the convenience of convenience stores!
mircea_popescu: though if you re-read, that objection was there, unexpressed.
asciilifeform: to which there was a counter, 'cipher with hardware interposer between disk and comp'
asciilifeform: so at the time, the logical objection was 'pwned comp will merrily present the familiar pw prompt and decrypt for enemy'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly enough, we had this thread prior to the 'block ciphers don't even exist' thread.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:37 trinque: braindamaged thing uses the same command to init a drive as attach the softraid again next time
mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160917/#308 << i thought we had this encrypted-drive vs encrypted-file megatheread, but anyway. the notion of an encrypted ~container~ is fundamentally braindamaged. stick to encrypting items.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 03:34 trinque hums don't fear the reaper
asciilifeform: now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes.
asciilifeform: http://www.osdever.net/documents/WritingDriversForTheDP8390.pdf?the_id=56 << back in the day, they even had asm snippets in the ds.
asciilifeform: nah that's many. the one kid is that one who eats bugs without dare.
phf: sort of like there was always that one kid who'd eat bugs on a dare
phf: all that analogy did for me is that every time i think asciilifeform, i remember the fucking spittoon
asciilifeform: the spittoon, phf, is in one strand.
asciilifeform: but they involved iron that is no longer obtainable in any qty.
asciilifeform: it isn't impossible, there were various experiments, e.g., https://github.com/dym/movitz/blob/master/losp/x86-pc/dp8390.lisp
asciilifeform: and if your answer is 'buy another one' i'm all ears
asciilifeform: how would you deal with the nic
asciilifeform: well let's work the example phf
asciilifeform: for one thing, you're then stuck with linux's pci and interrupt stack.
asciilifeform: how? by masamuneing the thing into a c turd ?
phf: ok, but nobody here thinks that, the whole point i'm trying to make is that there are ways to overcome the ennui to do what needs to be done
asciilifeform: consider how the thing expects real-time (1000s/sec) interrupt handling, but ALSO has 1,001 places where you must busy-wait for some register bit to flip
asciilifeform: working with the 8168 woke me up to the fact that i was wrong when naively thought that hardware were still made by sane folk
phf: ok, you've convinced me that all is hopeless and there's no point in trying
asciilifeform: where you don't need the 30k lines.
asciilifeform: the thing doesn't fallback to some 'pretent it is 1995' mode
phf: if your nic can't accomodate for those things, then your computer can't do those things, but it might not be a problem for the first year
asciilifeform: at any rate, i would have implemented a 10baseT nic driver, IF ANYONE COULD SOURCE THE FUCKING CHIP
asciilifeform: nope. describing the various uses of a comp
phf: i'm not convinced that this is not the case of "mp's t40 is too old and slow"
asciilifeform: ^ does not successfully run any example of the actual chip i was able to get my hands on.
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that i surveyed other folks' attempts, e.g., https://github.com/ReturnInfinity/BareMetal-OS/blob/master/os/drivers/net/rtl8169.asm
phf: i've had on linux nic drivers before and in 2005 or so not all of them were 20k+ lines that's for sure
asciilifeform: i had ~all the extant ones brought in (this was a commercial project) and obtained data sheets, etc.
asciilifeform: they are ALL at least as bad as linked item.
asciilifeform: it is a mythical thing, that does not exist on the market.
asciilifeform: there ISN'T a 'simple' nic.
phf: until i can get ~that~ to work rather. then i wouldn't be as pressed to get r8168 working or bust
asciilifeform: any and all of these are opportunities for deadlocking.
asciilifeform: oh and witness the sheer number of busy-waits, e.g., https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/blob/master/src/r8168_n.c#L4885
asciilifeform: and if you think the bios does this for you, you're probably posting from 1995.
asciilifeform: oh did i mention that the pci bus has to be correctly set up also ?
asciilifeform: i suspect that NO ONE has ever drivered this thing from scratch. not the winblows folks, either.
asciilifeform: phf: the thing needs real-time interrupt handling just to init.
asciilifeform: and ended up with a thing that, per the data sheet, ought to work, but never did.
asciilifeform: i hunted for years and found what imho is the simplest GB/s-capable nic, the rt8168. here is the linux driver, https://github.com/mtorromeo/r8168/tree/master/src
phf: fwiw save-lisp of nic state and disk controller state is always a question of degree. either will have to be re-initialized in general, same way as it's careless and possibly meaningless to "save state of running lathe with a component"
asciilifeform: and massive layer of gas mask (with many holes) between them.
asciilifeform: where there's a lisp layer and a liquishit layer.
asciilifeform: lemme guess, your save-lisp would just ignore the peripherals, which get inited every time.
asciilifeform: (and many of the ones that are, don't read correctly)
asciilifeform: the disk controller's ?
asciilifeform: how will you save the nic state registers ?
phf: genera it up all the way
asciilifeform: http://support.amd.com/TechDocs/42301_15h_Mod_00h-0Fh_BKDG.pdf << and before anyone asks, it is neither available in any other format, nor accurately convertible -- is sufficient illustration of my point. flip through it and weep.
phf: fwiw i went through the same exercise, and on account of being less of a depressive came out with different attitude
mircea_popescu: just pointing out that without the exact formula described, knowledge's not terribly useful, and deifnitely not well communciable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a good chunk of what i've done here since showing up is to try and fill in the gaps in the 'pioneer with arrows in his back' part of my www.
mircea_popescu: learn to document in that format because else we're stuck redoing your work while you sadly cry on the side.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was looking for something stictly in the following formula : as part of trying to execute subset X of task Y part of recognizable-primitive Z because so-and so, i came to the method k for theoretical reasons t1 throiugh tn ; attempting to implement it i encountered situation Q even through this makes no sense ; trying to adapt it i encountered exception Q.e1 which is contrary to design philosophy, and attempti
asciilifeform: the whole bag of shit is required.
asciilifeform: there is not, and will not ever be, a 10 page useful compression of it.
phf: well, the main question is "what's a reasonable baseline" to keep you inside the os long enough so that you can keep hacking at it
asciilifeform: which is not at all like the naive, reasonable conception pictured here.
mircea_popescu: you documented any of these somewhere, so phf doesn't need to do himself ?
asciilifeform: yes. and it made sense to me in '07. but not in '10 when i understood how the actual extant pc iron works.
mircea_popescu: d per se. except in the benefit that its checks will progress this much faster.
mircea_popescu: in lisp as discussed here, and generally, a lot of checks are to be performed. this happens to jive well with a matrix calling system for functions and the muiticore design of cpu. because you as lisp will just a) maintain a matrix of all checks to be perfromed as functions and b) keep them permagoing on all processorss. so this way, the cpu count influences internal parallelism in the os, and thus os speed ; not program spee
asciilifeform: no, it was a ~reasonable~ point, but when you go and try to actually implement it, on actual iron, it drives you to nuttery. because the thing is encrusted with unfathomable layer of undocumented turdolade and 'no this doesn't actually work, because fuckyou'
mircea_popescu: in c, no checks are performed and you're welcome to go fuck yourself. consequently, c exposes internals of cpu to user, so as to better hang himself. as seen eg in case of eulora client usage of one core and a trillion other places.
phf: mircea_popescu: i missed the point
asciilifeform: let's say the 8 cores operate on same memory location. how do they maintain cache coherence when writing output ?
mircea_popescu: in short, unwittingly perhaps, the extant x86 architecture ACTUALLY FAVOURS running a lisp machine over running a c machine.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah but they don't have to!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it dun work because, again, pc arch is retarded. the processors fight over the bus.
mircea_popescu: phf imagine if you will, the beauty of a system where "threads" make no sense in the first place.
mircea_popescu: ie, "this our lisp os only works on processors with no less than 8 cores. because we keep all these things pre-loaded and ready to go, and then every time you try to add we do 16 checks in one tick. one op mujlti data ftw!!1"
phf: but yes, cmucl in this channel started because i was thinking of porting it to hardware. it's obviously what every lisper wants/tries to at some point. in order to achieve it though, i kind of have to read and grok and read again the code the cmucl code, which is what i've been doing..
asciilifeform: things that the silicon ought to be doing. and ~WAS~ doing in 1976.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: understand, addition there is no longer 'ADD rax, rbx' but a pound of type bit checks and possible code paths on failure or type-promotion etc.
asciilifeform: pointing out that the intrinsic complexity far exceeds linux, bsd, whichever c os, kernel.
phf: which would be consistent with the v threads
asciilifeform: and if you use ANY 'c code in the drivers' you get gabriel_laddel.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the two are really not comparable.
phf: mircea_popescu: people basically come to same conclusion, and then when it comes to putting in "2 years of living from inside an os without youtube" balk
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: try to understand that linux is barely a thing at runtime. whereas a lisp os has to make up for 10,001 idiocies of the hardware, e.g., lack of garbage collector, lack of type bits in every (yes) machine word that get tested on every (yes) arithmetic operation, etc.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the tasks are here in my vierws overstated. linux had the tasks as hard as described, and it did break through, on shittier internet with fewer people milling about. lisp already has c code it can read for many of the drivers etc. this is major advantage. easier job to come 2nd.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu has it, the sane approach involves 0 c and 0 unix, and i came to this conclusion in '07.
phf: asciilifeform: oh, i thought for some reason they had civilized VOPs and such
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're dead ends.
mircea_popescu: be all this as it may, time to grow up and stop pretending adult lisp is anything but these two.
phf: well, only in a sense that it's written for it? i'm not sure married is the right word
asciilifeform: and the hardware ~is~ shit. boot up one of these (if you can actually get it to boot.) and say hello to 1 fps graphics, disks without dma (you don't know what these feel like until trying personally), nic that works when the moon is full strictly, etc.
phf: i think one could take either of those and turn them into real systems, the way we did with trb, but it's the same class of work
mircea_popescu: so then it seems to be that it is an offense before the gods and an insult to man when in any discussion of lisp anyone proposes any other solution than "pick either movitz or mezzano"
mircea_popescu: i mean, is there some fundamental reason such can't be written ? that's a problem. otherwise...
phf: movitz and mezzano are common lisp compilers, they are just shitty ones. they are good enough to boot an os on x86, but they are missing bits (large chunks of standard) because nobody's written those
mircea_popescu: what killed these ?
phf: the linux approach actually's been done twice, i.e. write something shitty, but it boots and then improve it until it's somewhat ok. there's https://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ and https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 06:16 ben_vulpes: some people go crazy, some people have crazy high tolerances, some people even eat a shitload over a long time and then one day break, the variance is wild and statistical claims cannot be made beyond "oh fuck might hose your brain under entirely unknowable circumstances but hey have fun with the tradeoff analysis kid"
asciilifeform: the other bit is, just as in the fpga thread, by the time anyone ~does~ spend the man-years, the requisite hardware is unavailable. see, e.g., 'movitz'.
mircea_popescu: too fucking smart for their god damned own good.
mircea_popescu: that's also the reason steam engine wasn't done by greeks.
phf: mircea_popescu: the real reason it's not been done is because it's fucking hard and nobody cared enough to spend the necessary man years
a111: Logged on 2016-09-17 05:58 adlai is incidentally now sober for the longest he's been in weeks - and he has a loaded vape within arm's reach - so i'd say step one is not that relevant >> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160826/#219
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the hardware is very literally shit. e.g., ever heard of acpi ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you also realised the hardware was shit that time we went to olympus and venus asked you to fuck her.
phf: the thing that ascii mentions he'd pay for "cmucl on hardware" explicitly involves ripping out C code and then doing necessary work to support some minimum set of x86 drivers like keyboards etc.
mircea_popescu: so then for shame, all these dickheads going around holding their heads in their hands and talking about dumb shit while doing no useful work.
phf: well, you don't need C for that and there are no excuses
mircea_popescu: now, x86 i can already buy, which of tll, lelnel don't exist and what's the excuse.
mircea_popescu: there's the following parts : hardware, including memory, cpu, disk etc. we shall call this x86 for short, even if it's a longer story ; tll, which is a compiler. does exactly same as the gcc does in linux : takes lisp code, spits out bytecode ; and finally the lelnel, which does what the kernel does in linux.
mircea_popescu: lisp is the system.
phf: are you running it on a linux system? because ~if and only if~ that you are you have to bring something extra into the picture
mircea_popescu: so then let it do this and no more.
phf: you know dos "com", which was just a flat sequence of bytecodes and when you did foo.com it would just start executing foo.com with the first byte
mircea_popescu: the whole point of stupid, yes, "let's make ada work in php!"
phf: but it's the whole point!
mircea_popescu: no dude, forget fucking linux altogether. who cares.
mircea_popescu: it produces asm for the x86, it runs on it.
mircea_popescu: so then ? i didn't import any linux anything.
mircea_popescu: no linux either.
mircea_popescu: phf there is no unix.
mircea_popescu: and in other hardware-software interactions, http://67.media.tumblr.com/5e92d02a732524921361231d041a7b34/tumblr_nptt458VbX1u1u4hvo1_400.gif
asciilifeform: i'ma let phf finish before i return to the iron bit.
phf: sbcl/cmucl already compiles whatever code you ask it to to native, architecture specific assembly, that's not the C layer's role
mircea_popescu: looky : either something's fundamentally broken with lisp, or else it has no "architecture" ; much in the way purple has no shape.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is gonna be the fpga thread all over again, isnnit. fact is, the 10,001 man-years are not available, and certainly not six times every morning before breakfast.
mircea_popescu: then keep going.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the difficult part is 'which skank.' it isn't 1988 and there is no standard pc arch.
phf: mircea_popescu: that's not what the layer between os and lisp does in the case of sbcl/cmucl. it explicitly doesn't do primitives, because those are, like you said, written in lisp, that's compiled into native bytecode (using VOB's, i.e. chunks for assembly)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's the easy part
mircea_popescu: lisp is supposed to exist out of what, six primitives or some such ? write them in asm. once you're done the job's ~done.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in this context, folks often say 'vm' when they are really describing emulator of a sane cpu arch.
mircea_popescu: you keep going back to this "my code runs in javascript via php" approach to life. it's nonsense. there's 0 need for c.
asciilifeform: aaaaaand this is how mircea_popescu arrives on the island where i sat in 2010.
asciilifeform: pretty much every c proggy >2k or so lines is similarly unrecoverable 'under the weight.'
phf: mircea_popescu: what would be the correct approach?
phf: but some people ~also~ tried silk-lined wellingtons, and those are even worse. trinque, once he decides to read clisp source code, will realize that the thing is ~unrecoverable~ under the weight of C-specific issues
mircea_popescu: phf management, if half competent, could have spared you the need for hindsight. this is evidently wrong.
mircea_popescu: dumbest approach ever, wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootstrap" is way better.
asciilifeform: in the end, no cleaner than if you had walked.
asciilifeform: planting you face-down in the mud.
phf: hindsight demonstrates that this might not be the best approach, because locals keep dropping the palanquin, etc.
mircea_popescu: ie, building coke machine for itself, then wondering at results.
mircea_popescu: it is way the fuck better than wearing silk-slippers-with-ten-foot-pole-extending-from-the-sole-with-boot-foot-at-other-end "bootrsrap"