mircea_popescu: well so then ?
asciilifeform: 'buy this vacuum, hose is the same one you were beaten to near death with in the police precinct last year'
mircea_popescu: you decided to stay on the old branch, which is fine, but also unrelated.
mircea_popescu: fine. when the ukrainians decided to be a nation, your dictionary also remote-updated.
mircea_popescu: when you bought the next installment of whatever comic you read as a boy,
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for asciilifeform's enlightenment, describe plox why coin should not be made of the same 'lead' (simple scheme -- there are N coins at 'sunrise', and, e.g., mircea_popescu can move coin no. 1,555 to ben_vulpes by signing 'coin 1,555 now belongs to [key of ben_vulpes] at time T' etc
mircea_popescu: anyway, re-reading this dns thing, i'm not even sure what the objections are. i'm getting a morass of "why shouldn't all the things be made out of lead since lead works well for pencils" + vague extremisms trying to confuse a clear boundry (x didn't exist ; x exists) with random other things.
asciilifeform: at least as late as the 2nd of this month, was alive.
deedbot: http://change.gov/jobs/apply_app/ << Presidential Appointments Application | Change.gov: The Obama ... | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_transition_of_Barack_Obama << Presidential transition of Barack Obama - Wikipedia | http://change.gov/agenda/civil_rights_agenda/ << Civil Rights | Change.gov: The Obama-Biden Transition Team
asciilifeform: can anyone shed light on the precise moment of death ?
asciilifeform: and to think, obummer is still on the throne even.
asciilifeform: 'What’s more, exploit code requires an attacker to program in the arcane 6502 language designed for the NES processor, relying on the way the virtualized 6502 processor translates this code to deliver malicious instructions.' << cpu produced in greatest number in all of history of semiconductor --- 'arcane' ?!
mircea_popescu: trilema fucking exists as my act of will, wherever i say it is that's where it is. of course they go together.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your objection would be that if i one day decide to move trilema from ip x to ip y i thereby am confusing your thought process unduly ?
asciilifeform: back upstack: i'm not convinced that 'the structure of thought' and 'updated regularly by remote hands' go together.
asciilifeform in whole life has only ever owned one encyclopaedia, 'britannica 1958', fished out of a skip as a boy, and incidentally it was the longest edition they made -- after that, only cuts. and the thing is surprisingly useful.
asciilifeform: (not speaking of marvels like 'the big soviet encyclopaedia', which famously in '30s had 'updates' mailed in to subscribers, complete with razor blade to cut out undesirables)
mircea_popescu: this is a debatable point. they are however fixed in context ; much like symbol tables for a running program say.
asciilifeform: they are also reasonably static.
mircea_popescu: yes, except dictionaries aren't the structure of the empire. they're the structure of thought.
mircea_popescu: what you'd like doesn't enter into this. you'll use the dictionary whether you like to or not.
asciilifeform: cannot speak for others, but i would like to use ~less~ dns and other centralized simon-says, not ~more~.
mircea_popescu: "People think that Web browsers are elegant computation platforms, and Web pages are light, fluffy things that you can edit in Notepad as you trade ironic comments with your friends in the coffee shop. Nothing could be further from the truth." << actually... that's exactly how it goes for me. and i mean that literally - i write straight html while hurr durring with teh girlz.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion. it's of the nature of ask deedbot, not of the nature of "what does the lordship think"
mircea_popescu: (ftr, re "does z sign", there's a beautiful tie-in for deedbot in here, because there's no reason i couldn't register straight from !!, and especially so if i have to pay something)
asciilifeform: why not instead 'i ask my wot what is y for this x, if anyone disagrees, there are problems'
asciilifeform: this is more or less an exact description of 'ask gossiptron to look up rating' except for the odd part where mircea_popescu wants it to be central or at least globally synchronized
asciilifeform: or at&t, or whoever the fuck is upstream, zimbabwe telecom.
mircea_popescu: so ask over a better protocol then,
asciilifeform: if it's ~exactly~ as now, then i get whatever verizon wants to substitute.
mircea_popescu: you send a dns request, like they work now exactly.
mircea_popescu: you send "register name x type y key z" to server. if it doesn't have x, it registers it. if it has x, it registers y provided z is the key registered for x.
asciilifeform: how is the 'able to' mechanically implemented ? because it is, or at least appears to be, promisetronic
mircea_popescu: currently, you can not register a gns item. at some point X, you will become able to. thenceforth, you will be able to. that's the whole timeline.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 00:35 Framedragger: first round, okay, but other rounds supposedly follow later, and the conflict case can be replicated, i would think, and hence the system supports conflicts, structurally, which need to be addressed one way or another.. dunno.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-16 00:34 Framedragger: because it would be great if WoT-gns worked like other WoT things, i.e., via the enforcement of WoT itself.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-16#1568033 << i really don't see that past the "sunrise" so to call it there's any need to give a shit. i would not negrate anyone for registering "someone else's" domain after the system comes online and anyone can register whatever. i do think it's pretty idiotic to bring it online empty ; i won't support a system that tries that ; and i think the comparison with mining/premining is entirely w
mircea_popescu: alrighty then!
mircea_popescu: the measure of their fitness to survive is very strictly how well things that work for me work for them.
mircea_popescu: i want something that works for me. if it works for others - good for them. if it doesn't, woe on them.
asciilifeform: what is the motivation for 'civilians' (folx not in on the initial merry round of elite-handling) to subscribe ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567999 << no it's not. the fact that i extend you the courtesy to not register "loper-os" at the sunrise event doesn't mean jack shit in that context. ethereum tried to change things AFTER. hardly the same thing.\
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 19:30 Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567990 << that's exactly what i mean. gentlemen among gentlemen and otherwise fuck the peasants.
shinohai: pfffft ... I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people still running 12.04 ... could be slipped into a dirty emulator rom or somesuch
BingoBoingo: Well if you really care about a name you prolly ought to claim it in the first round
shinohai likes the cardinal virtue of unfairness ....
Framedragger: first round, okay, but other rounds supposedly follow later, and the conflict case can be replicated, i would think, and hence the system supports conflicts, structurally, which need to be addressed one way or another.. dunno.
BingoBoingo: http://thesouthern.com/elections/upset-trend-felt-down-ballot-in-franklin-county/article_91c4a7c0-843e-5225-b8b7-4700d5bc5ba0.html << More picturesque rural scenes
BingoBoingo: The guiding principle of Inequality demands that the first round of registrations in a domain system must necessarily be limited to the privileged.
Framedragger: because it would be great if WoT-gns worked like other WoT things, i.e., via the enforcement of WoT itself.
Framedragger: pretending that they are MP?"
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1568014 << that's what i thought as well - i queried along the same lines: "say someone with a valid GPG key rushes to register trilema.com in the Republican DNS before yourself. I suppose that is all well and good, and you negrating the key would only be appropriate in the instance of that person
shinohai: http://archive.is/hMBhc <<< tinder to include "fill-in-the-blank" gender option, turning it into a mad-libs of dating
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 00:28 ben_vulpes: the infinite to bitcoin's finite, if you will.
trinque: he issues trilema to mp because mp will thump him otherwise
ben_vulpes: otherwise what's wrong with first-come first served?
ben_vulpes: good lols, yes, but the identity attached to the registration action is going to have some splainin to do
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: re: the "ownership" of trilema, i'd like to know who you suspect would even try to register trilema.com
BingoBoingo: In every case of multiple submissions attached to the same btc address there was a joke that was great and a lesser joke.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-15 19:30 Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567990 << ethereum also 'handled claims of the elite privately'.
pete_dushenski: mod6: cheers :D pretty stoked to be one of the contest winrars, though /me also wonders whether saxes or yugos caught BingoBoing's fancy.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-13 17:38 mircea_popescu: Framedragger note that i don't particularly see the value in restrictioning anything. in principle anyone should be able to register a domain for his bitcent - even if he puts no gpg key in there. he just won't be able to admin it, big whoop./
Framedragger: unless the latter kind of situation is to be covered by your clarification, to quote, "I imagine like any serious country, we first handle the claims of the elite privately. "
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i (or someone more credible, or whoever) registers "trilema.com" under their own leigt key. what nao?
mircea_popescu: what postel thinks'd be chaos, much like what jwz thinks'd be chaos, much like clinton or whoever other of these niggers and jews thinks to be "chnaos" is actually human life.
mircea_popescu: and from thence it all progresses - no, the place to look up needn't be "one across all the internet", because "otherwise postel thinks it'd be chaos".
Framedragger: right. how would the process of resolving conflicts in gns look like, though? (i'm just curious, i.e. question is well-intentioned, not troll-y)
mircea_popescu: the imperial idiots implemented this as dns, which is stupid and braindamaged, but the implementation being flawed doesn't remove the fundamental reasons, which is why i say - read that damned rfc, the things i didn't mock are actually correct.
mircea_popescu: up SOMEWHERE. that's the gns.
mircea_popescu: everyone-who-participates-in-this-conversation is the reference point. evidently, if we are talking about uh i dunno, star trek, the names have to be known and shared. spock can't be the woman with the nice ass. how does one join this conversation ? there's two options - either the usian school of "don't loo kit up - guess, fropm "context", what "it could be" or else - look it up damned it. to look it up, it has to be looked
asciilifeform favours of keeping the set of 'everyone who matters must agree on this' as small as possible (but not smaller).
Framedragger: so the notion of a local symbol frame/context will be retained inevitably, is that what you're saying mircea_popescu? (in which case i'd add that gns-the-implementation could even probably be used - on each interested user's machine - as a local name system. etc.)
mircea_popescu: CAN THEY even build a hall convincingly ?
asciilifeform: building a throne hall when you know that the stable situation really consists of 10,001 margraves, imho is mistake.
mircea_popescu: (yes you can rape the woman instead, which is in this sense deliberate, but i daresay not the same thing)
mircea_popescu: for the same reason "pua" is a horrible dating strategy.
asciilifeform: so now you have 10,000,001 'roots', which inevitably will happen when bahama throne falls, why not arrive at that situation ~deliberately~, rather than like (to steal from old mircea_popescu piece!) 'like teenage cowsie falls pregnant, willy-nilly'
mircea_popescu: life hasn't ended, the sun still rises, trilema clearly benefits.
mircea_popescu: i for instance don't credit the english-online-dictionaries opinions as to the meaning of english words.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform alternatively they could you know, just not credit THAT root and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: similarly fatties, gender-confuzeleds and any other special or specifiable interest group.
asciilifeform: in global namespace a la dns -- they gotta have tank battle
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing wrong for pepsicola and his friends to discuss pepsicola by "coke.com" in their own context, and CERTAINLY coca-cola doesn't have nor can aquire some mechanism to prevent his.
mircea_popescu: (note that for the needs of this discussion - i know because grandfather told me is a nec plus ultram of buluceala. it's how people know the earth is flat.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would say the gns as discussed on trilema drastically reduces it.
mircea_popescu: to get back to the fidonet/various attempts to do independent dns etc - the very naive "symbol context" = X, be x "an identity" or whatever is a liability. you gotta just let the context be its own thing.
asciilifeform: possibly there is another way to cut the namespace thing. question is 'does this hierarchical postulate increase or decrease buluceala ?'
mircea_popescu: i never bothered with ANY of this shit until bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would any of this matter ? in a discussion of "that guy" we may either load the table where he is written "shithead" or "sir", but in either case we gotta load a table for crying out loud.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: presumed that 'nodes' would be mappable to people who knew one another in the flesh, invariably.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: note that this was the laughable piece, 'majority votes', i had nfi how to cut the knot of sybil etc.
Framedragger: could be a set of particular (and particular only) peers. in any case, there must be a shared understanding among the users/elite as to how to proceed in face of naming conflicts.
Framedragger: "nexus of hierarchy" connects for me (maybe on some superficial level only) to kyristor's "The only questions A0 is qualified to answer are those for which disputes can be settled entirely through majority vote of the entire DHT network" - where the dht network
mircea_popescu: and while it pretends otherwise, it has nfi what . means and would just as happily resolve "illegal" domaions.
mircea_popescu: that's not how it works. i got this local key-data store ; the box can't even connect via dns port.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567838 << in point of fact we don't must use it, i've been happy with local name table for what, half a year ? not so much a matter of this as - it's there. might as well infect and "ruin" it for teh imperial idjits.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's rather true. real vs conventional hierarchy. there's these girls who are slaves ; and then there's these poor but ambitious girls who wish to be slaves. all that pretense jazz.
mircea_popescu: the fact that my definitions of imperial terminology prevail over the empire's own definition has nothing to do with the fact that before such a prevailing can take place, those definitions must actually exist and be given.
trinque: so then the solution must come of "we who matter have connected to node X for the table" and could do otherwise, but don't
asciilifeform: trinque: there is 'nexus of hierarchy' where we, e.g., study writings of mircea_popescu because they make sense and worth respect. and there is the other kind of hierarchy, where prb makes dns query using usg.glibc and internic root server is hardbaked into the code.
mircea_popescu: yes, it works fine in context, yes context frames needn't even map to identities ; nevertheless - you will have to have shared symbol tables.
mircea_popescu: trinque the words you use must have meanings. even if they have the most peculiar of meanings such as nigger = bureaucrat or jew = us agitprop agent ; nevertheless they must be given. somewhere.
trinque: republican structure of meaning means there is this nexus of hierarchy and debate out of which is emitted *the truth*
trinque: it is not necessarily that there cannot be multiple tables, but perhaps that one must win
mircea_popescu: really, read this rfc thing. it isn't long. where the fuck is it.
asciilifeform: so nail down the minimal 'ask'.
mircea_popescu: you can't standardize "the asking" ebcause the asking is made out of symbols which have to be meaningful.
mircea_popescu: we call this "dns" for historical reasons. but relations to the imperial braindamaged implementation are spurious.
mircea_popescu: you will have to share some portions of the symbol tables.
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform suffered with this problem in '10, and even put the notes up on www ( http://kyristor.com ) then concluded that it was braindamaged waste of time
mircea_popescu: even now. they try to pretend otherwise. that pretense has to have some light shed on it.
mircea_popescu: "trilema.com is 4.5.6.7 according to mp. if you believe mp - then there you go". that's a dns record.
trinque: mircea_popescu: no. once I know a key I can interact with deedbot if I can make it there over gossipd peerings
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "mostly" ie, "until mp requires a definition, then it all breaks down"
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [18:34:31] <asciilifeform> when you make use of something, successfully, you inevitably come to rely on it. this is a cost. i am still paying the cost for having used a python library in 2013.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: how about: make a proof of concept name system, use it instead of current dns root server set for now, later enable every gossipd user to run their own instance of name system if they prefer the fully-decentralized-dictionary path; the initial PoC will still have been useful.
mircea_popescu: if there's nowhere to lookup the "(" how will you have a lisp ? because "we all know" ? and if we don't know how do we find out ?
asciilifeform: then refine specifically what means 'a lisp' here
trinque: I would expect that if I am on gossipnet and I want loper-os, I ask my friends if they have a key which they call loper-os
asciilifeform: Framedragger: fact is, central table of anything at all, is a throne, i simply do not see the 'win' from retaining the throne.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fact that you can query dns server over current dns protocol and get current response does NOT create an obligation on your to do so.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: abstraction layering doesn't work. it is the great lie of the software age.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i thought so too, but basically mircea_popescu's idea would dispatch of the whole 'dns zone' concept. there would be no 'domain' per se. dns clients could still query 'loper-os', but the server would be a simple table, with no understanding of zones or significance of "."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-15#1567823 << every system you ever use will have a dictionary ; and every system you ever used in the past had a dictionary. this is unavoidable. you prefer one over another, dictionaries, systems, that's your problem. but if you read the linked rfc - there's parts they get right, right before the parts they fuck up that i underlined in red.
Framedragger: personally i don't see why there could not be a GNS which would be separate from commitments to specific transport standards. have a table, have a transport layer, swap the layer later. i may be naive in regards to the "swap" step, i guess... :/
asciilifeform: waaaiwat, why would you keep the unauthenticable crock of shit made of 10,001 ITU idiocies if you ~weren't~ gonna keep the code ?!
mircea_popescu: go find one line of code currently involved in dns in any capacity that you can prove is going to remain there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keeps my foot. what the hell does it keep ?
Framedragger: there could be WoT members maintaining their own namespaces that others may want to peruse, etc.
Framedragger: so, yeah. and i'm no longer convinced it would redundant, in the sense that when gossipd cometh, one must throweth the 'general name system' away
Framedragger: i don't have a strong opinion, i wonder what mircea_popescu thinks. i guess the answer would also focus on the "while we still must use it" aspect
Framedragger: trinque: right, this is cf. gossipd's "everyone has their own a la hosts file, and does with it what they like". is that what you meant?
trinque: I call that guy "shithead" and you call him "sir"
Framedragger: trinque: i meant as a generic string - trying to avoid the term 'domain' as the latter is not accurate..
Framedragger: trinque: but yes, the central table thing remains
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you cannot get rid of the idiocy of 10,000,001 lines of jwzola by 'wrapping' in anything
Framedragger: trinque: not that part. the transport part - name query/response, as well as name updates.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: worse than this, it is even difficult to quantity the cost of perpetuating the IDEA of a 'block cipher' as being A THING
Framedragger: re. plaintext for all NSAs to read, sure, there's that. goes against gossipd's "no free bits for the unauthenticated" i guess. but again, this can be wrapped in gossipd later.
asciilifeform: when you make use of something, successfully, you inevitably come to rely on it. this is a cost. i am still paying the cost for having used a python library in 2013.
asciilifeform: earlier this year, i wanted to fit symmetric cipher into trb, and get rid of 'blackholing' etc. but mircea_popescu correctly pointed out that it is the Wrong Thing to cement a pseudoscientific abortion like AES (or ANY OTHER known symmetric cipher!) into place
Framedragger: right, both precision and accuracy required (any error rate cripples the UX, etc.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: "it was interesting learning experience in that i never understood how ~motherfucking reliable~ an ordinary keyboard must be before it feels usable." very interesting! nice project. (ppm == pixels per meter?)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do note that mircea_popescu's idea of keeping dns is more akin to a general WoT-enforced hashtable, update-able via (in principle) gossipd-compatible pgprams, and (for the time being) transportable over dns/udp. the latter so that dns clients can make use of it.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: some months ago i restored a vintage keyboard, with capacitative matrix (contactless) which needed new controller and analogue calibration etc. it was interesting learning experience in that i never understood how ~motherfucking reliable~ an ordinary keyboard must be before it feels usable.
Framedragger: (in fairness, the html sometimes mangles two words together, omitting a space, or somesuch. not many words are lost. but still, shame.)
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/crjex/?raw=true << ascii paste seems to grab the txt correctly, oddly enough.
asciilifeform: worked for netscape ? partied with jwz ? sat on itu standards committee ? there is a pick at butugychag with yer name on it.
asciilifeform: and bury long-lived reactor waste there, for good measure.
asciilifeform: the one problem, shared with every other piece like this that i know of, is that it omits the obvious cure, which is not simply to thermonuke the crud, but to kill the horse it rode in on, and the rider, and to burn the field that it fed on, and salt it.
Framedragger: (and no, the irony of linking to pdf which talks about stupid frontend formats is not lost on me... :( )
Framedragger: this reminds of james mickens' rants on 'mobile' and 'modern web', e.g. (JS - i've linked to it once iirc, under the bdsm social board discussion): http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/mickens/files/towashitallaway.pdf (html: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/towashitallaway.html - for logs)
mircea_popescu: myeah. rahter insufferable aren't they.
scriba: Logged on 2016-11-15: [17:08:07] <mircea_popescu> not, on the other hand, to deny that there in fact exists this subculture dedicated to the screenshot as quotation mechanism, or that tech support teams regularly see terrabytes of crap each month, clogging the tubes for no conceivable reason. it has to do with a failure of literacy, a certain laziness of the mind that thinks in symbols (which is
Framedragger: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161115/#349 << ohmygerd how i hate this shit. it ends with "to quote text in screenshot of screenshot, i'll make a screenshot". tumblr at least retains/-ed the concept of a "quote as a block of text". wouldn't be surprised if not for long.
BingoBoingo: And Elliot is too ethnic for them.
mircea_popescu: they're prolly too ethnic for elliot.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck would want stock options on twitter.
mircea_popescu: eh. maybe they're paying him in fresh tail. so he made up some scam, sold it to some suckers for $$$, then they want him to come back and be worshipped by all the interns ? sure, why not.
BingoBoingo: Sure but they are porlly paying him with Inequity!
pete_dushenski: he was kicked out / sold out when twitter was nearing peak valuation then brought back to 'save' co. meanwhile he shoulda stayed on the beach sipping margaritas because he failed miserably to 'pull a steve'
pete_dushenski: gotta appeal to any and all possible suitors now that it's turning tricks on the corner for dimes. go jack!
pete_dushenski: like whole #rapemelania thing, libertards are now outting themselves as the biggest racists/sexists/bigots around, post-trump
mircea_popescu: kinda the point of the whole "special" bullshit. everything the anal child does is directed towards the same protection of his childhood, and in this particular case - if he's special enough then you can't "say bad things" because are outside ; and if you're not outside he'll just... specialize more.
mircea_popescu: what happened to "you're not willing to follow the rules, you can't take public office" ?
asciilifeform: 'About 800 Montgomery Blair High School students attended the rally at the stadium, and most returned to class afterward, Montgomery County Public Schools spokeswoman Gboyinde Onijala said.'
asciilifeform: https://archive.is/OulNa << can't say that herr soros is spent quite yet!111 they are marching out ~high school~ pupils to 'protest' nao.
asciilifeform: this is what i meant when said 'theoretically - yes'
mircea_popescu: i think some magic could be had where you put all the new items into a new table then merge the two tables where hashes don't match.
asciilifeform: then inserted correctly.
asciilifeform: as in, the thing gets hashed, and db gets queried for the hash, and for the fp (these are two separate and not wholly overlapping ways to index pgp keys) to see if we already have either
mircea_popescu: to get back to the pguctor feeding briefly - you mean "one at a time" as in insert into whatever values () as opposed to insert into whatever values (),(),() ?
mircea_popescu: ie, the back button itself is promisetronic as implemented by browsers. "almost like lisp!"
mircea_popescu: well, in fairness the back button thing is because browsers are shit more than anything. there's a thousand ways to break it, including by introducing an expiring page in the stack etc.
asciilifeform: and the like.
asciilifeform: and break the 'back' button, etc.
mircea_popescu: but javascript is specifically dedicated to doing dumb shit like "i'll pretend to be you - and fill the clipboard"
asciilifeform: if you plug in the nic, you're 'outsourcing root', eh.
asciilifeform: also has to do with ubiquitously broken software (why the fuck is it possible for www site's scripts to MODIFY THE CLIPBOARD??)
mircea_popescu: t to the point, to disentangle a skein of thought, to detect what is sophistical, and to discard what is irrelevant."
mircea_popescu: not, on the other hand, to deny that there in fact exists this subculture dedicated to the screenshot as quotation mechanism, or that tech support teams regularly see terrabytes of crap each month, clogging the tubes for no conceivable reason. it has to do with a failure of literacy, a certain laziness of the mind that thinks in symbols (which is what the screenshot is).as newman put it, "to see things as they are, to go righ
asciilifeform: promisetronic 'verifications' are an eternal plague among the stupid. consider even the timestamp in gpg (to make the phuctor sig from last night's qntra, i used ordinary gpg 1.4, with patch). what business does a userland proggy have asking for the wall clock time without permission? if i want it to have a time, i will pipe 'date' to it...
mircea_popescu: the very notion of "screenshot as proof" is suspect and to my mind inseparable from http://trilema.com/2014/o-hai-let-me-verify-your-identity/
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if that blurring is not imagemagick'd in place, then how was it obtained ? that sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "quitting" is how they'd like it to be called.
mircea_popescu: not that it's out and out impossible, after all the bee will do what it knows in preference of all otehr deeds.
asciilifeform: (that forest of office towers around wh is full of these, traditionally)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger re automation angle - i dunno, i suppose varying amounts of elbow grease could be employed, entirely as a mechanical gearbox, in lieu of actual automation. just it doesn't fit in my head - the same people who wouldn't read ten words would then go through the motions, orders of magnitude more complex, of making screenshots etc ?
asciilifeform: at this point i cannot think of what these 'bees' might be good for, they are not even bees, but roaches, there is no roach candle wax afaik.
mircea_popescu: but they concerned with the proposition of alf the bee-dog's bees, ie these things... they've a serious problem.
asciilifeform: (story is in the logz)
mircea_popescu: anyway. i don't think they wasted my time nor do i think myself the victim. fact is i can turn them into value if i so decide, much like the beekeeper can make candles and honeycomb if he wants. and if i don't want - i just don't make a fiverr account. not like they can do anything whatsoever, they can't even elect hillary.
Framedragger: i see what you mean. now it's a closed bubble/system for them, sort of...
mircea_popescu: but these kids, who cobble not sandals but the very words... they're stuck in monoband world. and i honestly see no possible solution.
mircea_popescu: the ancient cobbler apprentice who did a bad job had two out of band systems, his master's crop and his master's words, to shake him out of biological amoebasty.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the problem they face is that as they cannibalized language itself they're now stuck in a very lost world without any possibility of out of band
Framedragger: except for the whole "wasting time of actual people" side of things..
Framedragger: well, good for the skriptkiddies then. a spammy-scripty strategy is a strategy nonetheless.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lemon market, there.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i expect they have a fully scripted environment cobbled together out of visual basic, httpfox and what have you
asciilifeform: and if we really get mircea_popescu's botnet system, perhaps phuctor can finally get off the elephant box and onto 1024 chickens..
Framedragger: could it be that half of them are bots, mircea_popescu? can't imagine them being able to use imagemagick for the life of me
mircea_popescu: you should see the level this kabuki has achieved. they actually post multiple imagemagick generated jpegs. which are "proof"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform straight to http://trilema.com/2016/theyre-not-progressive-theyre-just-lazy-a-practical-exercise/
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the idea being that we're overflowing data to process, after your set ends up in spring jurov's goes in and may take a year+
asciilifeform: as these folx tend to.
asciilifeform: they published (claimed) tally, charts, 'discussion'
mircea_popescu: except a) they didn't and b) we did and c) they published nothing and d) we published both ips and factors ?
asciilifeform: and then wrote fancy paper with charts etc. but 0 actual hard evidence
asciilifeform: well, they -- supposedly -- did phuctor-with-ssl
asciilifeform: or the ip of one single popped box.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they never, afaik, published one single factor.
asciilifeform: phuctor is a living illustration of the tradeoffs of 'muntzing'. it is ~100 % reliable, and (aside from the unicode turdolade) demonstrably bug-free. but this comes at a price.
asciilifeform: (they, as everyone probably already guessed, get db queried one-at-a-time. to do anything else would result in a 50x more complicated phuctor.)
asciilifeform: betcha even if this is slow, it is still faster than feeding'em into the db currently
Framedragger: aha yes, ssl certs should go into the oven, too.
Framedragger: aha, the way it'd work, it'd still scan only port 22 initially, because grabbing banners / doing stateful communication is much slower. doing the former is a matter of TCP SYN/ACK, with embedded 'cookies', no need for state
asciilifeform: why should henninger et al and their 'seekrit evidence' remain 'state of art'
asciilifeform: because these, imho, ought to go next.
asciilifeform: if telnet - the greeting string
Framedragger: or banner-grabber? i have all the banners still. (and no i haven't done anything with them, yet)
jurov: yea, they usually don't survive reinstalls