a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.
phf: i missed the part where wot was going to be integrated into eulora? i know that deedbot was mentioned
phf: the proposed alternative provides a verifiable audit trail of all the ratings made by everyone, without necessary solving mitm problems
phf: the architecture ~right now~ is as secure as your setup. there's no way to mitm wot ratings. if there's an error in wot, there's not even a point to start a stink. you go and fix the rating if you changed it drunk, or you let trinque know that there's some serious issue. we unroll last week's signed wot and proceed from there
jurov: was that the argiument?
trinque: it's just another ad hoc "I feel X"
trinque: phf: how the fuck do I parse a statement like that ^
phf: you don't want to even hear the opposing side so resort to constructing strawmen
trinque: this is emphatically "I just want to" use it the way it is
trinque: "meh, data integrity is your job :^)" << >> "alright, I want fucking signed material then"
phf: you're redefining the meaning of wot "for sekuriti!!1"
asciilifeform bbl, the lattices are here!!
asciilifeform: granted i can easily see how danielpbarron might have come upon his position, given as he practices a religion based on stuffing words into the mouth of long-dead fella
asciilifeform: and these --- matter.
trinque: if you put something in the signed material that gives when, that, also
phf: asciilifeform: no no that's sort of like the "what's the wot" article. the "number is meaningless without asking the creator" part
trinque: the fact is preserved that he who had this key said X
asciilifeform: they are of no use without creator's pubkey, yes.
phf: ratings are meaningless though without the creator
asciilifeform: one reason why signatures are a uniquely useful things is that they can outlive creator.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: please paint a picture for us, of the danger
asciilifeform: when i sign phf's patch, i have 'posrated' the patch.
trinque: I didn't hear a position other than "not needed"
asciilifeform: a signed rating is a correct use of the robot. in fact vtronics consists entirely of this type of thing
phf: he's arguing a position against yours. he's not getting in your way. perhaps he's trying to say that he's not particularly eager to have dozens of his own signatures floating around with some opaque digital data in there directed at machine?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's original 'gossiptronic' argument -- and i suppose he can elaborate when he wakes up -- was that a signature is a kind of autonomous and indestructible truth-telling robot, that can be of use to the enemy if one is not careful about when you create it and out of what
trinque: in advance, rather than once upon a fuckup
trinque: phf: we agree there.
phf: trinque: why not? my responsibility, the log, failed as a combination of things inside of my control and outside of my control. i apologized and tried better next time. it's not a bad system.
asciilifeform: and if you are dumb enough not to notice that you are in the cave, and relied on unsigned ratings, he can now also show you wholly-fictitious ones.
trinque: because we all know the system has always worked
asciilifeform: trinque: ratings are one of the very few things for which the case for signature is screamingly clear
trinque: phf: yeah I'm not taking responsibility for the next exploit in all this garbage tyvm
trinque: so we've found the "sweet spot" where we have removed enough untrustworthy components and might as well settle down and have kids / get fat here?
phf: trinque: we trust you, it's in the wot. and if you break the wot we'll rate you negatively using the wot :)
trinque: I am aware of how the bot works; answer my actual question
trinque: "don't need" is the sort of squishy lazy compromise that'd better have a reason
phf: what i got from the argument last time is that wot ratings don't need that sort of meticulous bureaucratic audit trail. my personal inclination is to of course specify and sign and process (plus it would be cool to have own fork of wot maintained by own means), but i'm not sure i disagree with the first point
asciilifeform: the wot is made of what? not of ratings ?
asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
asciilifeform: trinque: that is the weak point, precisely
trinque: this bottle is also somehow distinct from the bottle where deedbot is currently lying to him
asciilifeform: danielpbarron's argument, if i understand it, is that folx are doomed to have to ask, e.g., mircea_popescu directly, for mircea_popescu's ratings, because otherwise enemy can win against, e.g., danielpbarron, by locking him inside a bottle where mircea_popescu's ancient and long-revoked rating of magicaltux still stands because signed ??
trinque: and lets not soften the definitions of things because "o no too hard"
asciilifeform: because the only reasonably rigid 'nail' to nail it down with is blockhash
trinque: it says "this was precisely the state of this text at time"
asciilifeform: a signature simply states that 'at time t, the following...'
trinque: your observation is misapplied; the signature does not say "for all time"
trinque: which does not invalidate that at the time of signature they were precisely the statement I made
trinque: if I go change them, yes, signed material does not update
asciilifeform: ergo -- sign the fucking rating.
asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
asciilifeform: as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
asciilifeform: ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
trinque: in one case, both parties can verify a rating using the rating material itself.
trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
trinque: under the present scheme I could do the same, but have to trust the wire to be honest, or find a better wire, which proceeds towards dragging gossipd in as a dependency
trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
trinque: but I like the stardate being present
phf: what's the 441599?
mats: simultaneously growing up in america among the wastage and vast consumption culture, the whole thing is ugly to its core
mats: i grew up violently scolded whenever i'd leave meat on bones, grains of rice behind on the plate, and i've carried this discipline through to adulthood
trinque: in regards to WoT, it allows me to at any time rebuild the graph with certainty
trinque: especially as relates to the payments system
trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
a111: Logged on 2016-11-28 18:37 asciilifeform: wot rating is the one scenario that most screamingly calls for attributable proclamation.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:56 mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.
mats: i mean specifically the folks ~in space~ rather than those on earth, aspiring to be there. no longer taking free air, water, food for granted, cooperating to survive in vacuum or organizing as a society to terraform $planet
mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
a111: Logged on 2016-11-01 21:29 asciilifeform: trinque: consider: a 'saturn' and the maersk cargo fleet cost similarly. but they are unlike: 'saturn' is a cult/religious object (in the sense where nobody seriously attempts to calculate its roi) , rather more like the great pyramids.
mats: i'd have asked that canadian fella to print all the spacex and nasa sets on canvas but he had to go and be retarded, so...
asciilifeform: 'spacex' is every bit as usg as nasa, but is part of the 2000s 'lean usg', if you will, concept; sorta like thiel's palantir is 'lean nsa'
asciilifeform: aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
phf: trinque: yes yes that's why i prefer going sporting with rednecks and southerners, they don't cry about things
trinque: sounds perfectly southern to me
phf: when i came to u.s. my biggest surprise was that locals are into neither. you try and rough them up they think you some kind of crazy person, you try and get them into a debate they get all scared and confused.
phf: people i knew back home were much more into verbal sparring, but following the same principles, you enter into dialog take a lot of abuse hope to come out on top, but at the end everyone's friends
phf: so Berlin boys at the same hotel would rag on them, but from remote, because thems berlins boys were much more into talking)
phf: i met this small family of germans on a vacation growing up, and they were very visceral, roughing and tumbling with each other, and when i joined in their play, it was tough, they'd punch hard and try and sink you in the pool, but they acted same way with each other and just generally enjoyed what was happening. in fact i'm pretty sure they took it easy on me. i remembering thinking that they were like wolf cubs (they were from Dresden
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 10:36 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576123 << isn't he the guy that started the whole wedding bombing trend ?
mircea_popescu: "i got a bun in the oven, or maybe i'm just late, does ivan still drink ?"
phf: "i have this idea for a project, maybe i'll complete it by the end, or maybe i won't even start, so what are you working on?"
mircea_popescu: the only possible end result of which is being fucked.
mircea_popescu: the focus moves from achievement to "we were physically together tapping keys for a time" i nthe exact same sense iranian women hang out together in the kitchen. "participative experience".
mircea_popescu: phf incidentally, to round the thing, let's compare the 90s compo with the 2010s hackathon. o, that's right, these lame kids come from schools with no grades! the concept of there being a winner, of choice and hierarchy is all but lost.
mircea_popescu: i can't say i ever used either that much to tell, but i did fuck around with art studio a lot as a 6 yo
asciilifeform: it beats the shit out of 'gimp' et al in some respects
ben_vulpes: but the sunsets are so boring now
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is misinformed, we get air here, but now on other hand, water...
mircea_popescu: neither does washington
asciilifeform: so now the high rents are in pekin.
mircea_popescu: place's been coming in a big way since the 1859 gold find put it on the map, and throughout this century and a half it never ammounted to more than high rents and jam tomorrow.
mircea_popescu: and for the record, this has been ongoing. in 1916 it was EXACTLY the same nonsense "oh, california is coming in a big way, let's move the theatrical company over".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: california may have sucked , but apparently evil martians put shockley and fairchild there as a joke upon us earthlings , to see 'what if idiot farmer wins lottery'
phf: was sort of notorious for publishing "cyber speculative" nonsense in the style of whatshisname, rock singer
phf: but i was going to say, amusingly enough the whole "cyberpunk/cypherpunk/whatever" thing came from san francisco, and that's what all the jwzs grew up with. "mondo" which later became "boing boing" (and had a blog with same name in the early 2000s) http://theendofbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/defd4d784f2e7c1978d81b99904c7869_large.jpg http://sangbleumagazine.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mondo-1.jpg
phf: i remember taking linear algebra course in u.s. college, sort of mildly excited "finally learn this shit proper!" just to realize that my level of knowledge by then was grad research level. stopped showing up half way through, just taking tests..
mircea_popescu: the common man is here to be cut up and the meat fried, not running fucking "democracies" and making "choices" and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: at one point everything worth the mention worked like this ; it being the only way things can work.
mircea_popescu: "Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We absolutely don't do all these releases, to please the general user that rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and see's the scene releases as a source to play all these games for free." << all the way down to despising the consumer / i just want to jwz.
asciilifeform: nothing was wasted, one of the pins controlled ultra-cheap tape deck i/o, the rest - banked addr space
phf: i mean all the tools were ports from amiga. "nah, you don't use photoshop, here's this thing that we ported from amiga"
asciilifeform: commodore (with the exception of the weirdo dual-cpu variant of the '128', and an expander cartridge for 64 ) -- never sold a z80
mircea_popescu: back when /me still had a lot of faith in humanity, /me still didn't give a rat's ass about the us.
asciilifeform: and of mathematical wizardry.
mircea_popescu: and since we're on it, i'd say the scene was the early republic, not derpy "cyberpunks/cypherpuns/whatever"
phf: (in the 90s)
mircea_popescu: i'd say the release groups being the first and to date the best example of async teams solving problems that benefit from face to face.
mircea_popescu: no, that's a gathering.
phf: hackathon is a period of time for exclusively remote teams to get together and work on some problems that benefit from face to face, or more generally a period of uninterrupted work done by an asynchronous team. that's the original and the only meaning in the spirit of "consult the dictionary"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i imagine what they mean by hackathon is one of those pbs donation drives. except instead of girls at phones now they have boys at keyboards.
mircea_popescu: they're looking to farm trust. ANYTHING but the fucking obvious - stop supporting socialism already!
mircea_popescu: o look, they "hosted a hackathon"
mircea_popescu: Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. It is a real danger to democracy."
mircea_popescu: the very evident "new york times, washington / huffington post etc do not produce strings worth more per megabyte than any other markov process" is elided in favour of "we shall label this failure of ours in terms of an external phenomenon and posture really convincingly about it". really, is it "being investigated" ? who the fuck is the agent in that agentless phrase and who the fuck's gonna supply the army.
mircea_popescu: somehow the OBVIOUS inference isn't drawn from this.
mircea_popescu: "A report from BuzzFeed found that, in the final three months of the US presidential campaign, the top-performing fake election news stories on Facebook generated more engagement than the top stories from major news outlets such as the New York Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, NBC News and others." <<->> http://trilema.com/2016/the-war-with-the-press/
asciilifeform: though it may be for theatrical effect, considering subj
mircea_popescu: wtf is with the whiny beseeching voice omfg.
mircea_popescu: and this includes "cyberpunks" and whatever else - they still thought in terms of "the country" and bartlesian "in the end '''real''' life aka socialism prevails"
mircea_popescu: before the republic nobody seriously contemplated, let alone put resources towards, most sane ends and goals.
asciilifeform: i still wonder how come nobody, afaik, ever even once sold rng where the debiaser and analogue halves came apart.
mircea_popescu: get the enemy incentives correctly alligned.
asciilifeform: the difficulty comes when you wish to make one that remains cryptologically acceptable when it becomes a mass-produced and published product.
asciilifeform: though i may have explained this before, long ago in the l0gz, it is NOT difficult to make a quite acceptable trng
asciilifeform: a quite separate problem, and anyone who ACTUALLY owns the rtlsdr unit knows of it, is the usb
asciilifeform: nor is it quite known wtf is inside the chip
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: problem is that the thing hangs on a megatonne of open Sores shitware that is >trb-sized
mircea_popescu: i suppose getting two tuned to the same frequency and then debiasing them together may result in something (precisely because taking advantage of n in that horrible snr). otherwise with a single item... tough.
mircea_popescu: did you see the guy who had a "for free just as good version" consisting of buying a software radio thing (for slightly more than what FUCKGOATS costs) and you know, listening to man made "entropy"
asciilifeform: and in yet-other lulz, http://qntra.net/2016/12/no-such-labs-unveils-fuckgoats/#comment-80421
asciilifeform: if this is so (and i'll take mircea_popescu's intel for its word) they are on the american train to nowhere, then.
mircea_popescu: and the chinese can't afford to get married because bitch wants place to spawn and place to spawn within icbm distance of anything worth one's time cost 1mn+ ie five lifetimes.
asciilifeform: ditto 'the syrians'
mircea_popescu: who are these syrians / chinese / whatevers things belong to.
asciilifeform: 'the americans' are no moar a civilization, to whom a continent can belong, than 'the romans' are today.
mircea_popescu: syrian "color revolution" also fails. does syria belong to "the syrians" ?
asciilifeform: it belongs to the earthworms.
mircea_popescu: does the us "belong to americans" ?
mircea_popescu: "the chinese" you use doesn't existg.
asciilifeform: i dun have a good eye inside cn. but from outside it would appear that it still belongs to the chinese, and is resistant to twitterocratization
mircea_popescu: not like they're sitting around wearing kimonos and laughing at the idiocy of dicking around with a small plastic lavalamp.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider you just said pnoje above. this settles the point.
mircea_popescu: stupid naturally herds together, and to very much the same degree. there isn't anything you can do about it, and ftr the shepherd FOLLOWS the herd, doesn't lead it. he may imagine he leads it, if it makes him feel better about living in the middle of nowhere among a pile of animal dung, but whatevers.
asciilifeform: well judge for yourself -- usg 'demoocracy'-spreading via twatter/arsebook/etc was successfully zapped. and no, not merely via 'great wall', but it was 'part of the balanced diet' of how.
mircea_popescu: everything works "on the target audience", especially if that's defined so as to make it seem to work. in which vein see also http://trilema.com/2016/consumerism-is-not-the-answer-though-it-will-put-you-to-sleep-or-american-history-x/#selection-91.0-111.1
asciilifeform: that is to say, 'casual user' cattle browsing 'the news' on their pnojes while waiting for the train.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 14:32 mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576270 << imho this thread is worth expanding -- i remain unconvinced that chinese great firewall 'never worked'. it -- works, on the target audience.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller, mircea_popescu , et al: should be fixed nao.
mod6: <+jurov> mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall << ah, thanks jurov!
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: that's a default eggog
mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
asciilifeform: afaik there is not a third
mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
asciilifeform: latest word is that a list of sov^H^H^Hru 'stooges' is in the works, and who knows, isp filter
asciilifeform: oh noez, not the tritler wh!111 cnn, nyt !!
mircea_popescu: "i and other open source contributors" sez mr. sieradski. open source is starting to be quite shameful an association by now.
mircea_popescu: "thios website is considered a questionable source" being the giveaway. i suppose the idea is thetimes.whitehouse.gov is unquestionable ?
asciilifeform: 'Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. "It is a real danger to democracy."'
shinohai: Sounds like the same thing that happens with almost *every altcoin
mircea_popescu: anywya, so obscure altcoin dropped 50% or something and there's some drama.
walter_: another altcoin
walter_: Thanks. Anybody watching the XVC drama?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
mircea_popescu: (for the innocent : there was a 2015 "we'll take mosul in spring" thing, also. you never hear anything about it today BECAUSE the key of usg behaviour is exactly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 : they make one a year. if this year's fails then "it never really happened" ; if it succeeds then "see, we always win, told you so!")
mircea_popescu: anyway. the battle for mosul, originally slated to end about a month ago, and then upgraded to end about today, has been upgraded again to take "months" hence. i think i want a refund.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, isn't it remarkable the ustardian social media isn't up in arms about all the sex discrimination going on in iraq ? why, pray tell, ONLY MALES "of fighting age" are being suspected ?
mircea_popescu idly wonders if the hama massacre and hafez' socialist roots have anything to do with the junior bashar's poor reception in the us and ru support. the father did create an unique network of alawites all through the 80s...
Framedragger: (oh also, shot from a real gun for first time yesterday. pretty cool. never thought there'd be that much of a gun powder smell, and flash of light.)
Framedragger: "i'm coding". yeahyeah. i'm off to the DMZ/JSC tomorrow which is sth i wanted to go to. will have opportunity
mircea_popescu: wtf is this dumb shit, they ain't got computers where you live ?
mircea_popescu: drop all the stupid computer shit right now and go out and talk to all the girls you see.
Framedragger: didn't really get the chance. except for in retrospect missed opportunities :/
mircea_popescu: azns. the penii are mostly to pee with.
Framedragger: interestingly i find the .ko boyz quite subdued, i mean in all kinds of senses incl libido, but that may very well be a very superficial impression
mircea_popescu: much like castration is the cultural identity of western europe.
mircea_popescu: very well spread in the old world, it's çorba in turkish, ciorba in romanian, i would identify it as the core of cultural identity for non-western europe.
Framedragger: the oil is quite present... also did you just spell porridge in arabic script?
Framedragger: of the same kind is fatty polish kvašnica soup. quite good.
Framedragger: ohya. fat everywhere, lots of pig, yes indeed. there is that.
Framedragger: this randomly reminded me of this film ^ from czechoslovakia. mircea_popescu probably knows. there's a scene with the guy stamping the girl in the train station. it's beautiful. (but for srsly. 1960s .cz film, you know)
mircea_popescu: apparently not. anyway, the mp sandwich includes a layer of sour cream.
mircea_popescu: (srsly, napolact, the transylvania milk and dairy factory, sells sour cream in these 600g buckets.)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: totally. i hear you. and lots of sour cream. like srsly lots. to ease the potatoes in
shinohai: I had iguana while I was in central america, about as exotic as I got with the locals
mircea_popescu: eh don't be too harsh, you also have potato dumplings with a little cheese in them.
Framedragger: after reflecting upon economic cycles and the crashes to come, ii have presently assumed a state of relative tranquillity...
Framedragger: (there is that feeling (maybe just a feeling) that folx here (.ko) always have some spare cash. (i mean like jb financial group, etc.) whereas in yurop, everything's on the brink of bankruptcy, disaster's around the corner.)
Framedragger: (oh god, i'll come back from asia believing that lithuania should seriously suck china's cock as much as possible so that it could *maybe* get bought by them. like, that's the best option for them. idem poland, only that the latter are way ahead (and a tad bit more autonomous from bruxelles.usa) (e.g.: coaxing chinese to invest into gdansk port; .lt's port is just about done.))
jurov: mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the rise and fall of the theranos lizzard club may be of interest to the alf minded.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576123 << isn't he the guy that started the whole wedding bombing trend ?
ben_vulpes: jurov: cloudfront errors at the ml again
pete_dushenski: http://archive.is/uGJTp << 'cybercriminals' going under the 'avalanche' banner are 'dismantled' by doj, europol, eurojust and... icann. moar dns plz!
pete_dushenski: unless its majick mikroskopick invisabru unicode 'l' tucked in there in martian font.
pete_dushenski: "That's the Unicode world, a world where impotence was legislated a litte further" << mircea_popescu, missing 'l'
pete_dushenski: maybe a russian invasion, or at least a smattering of carpet bombing campaigns, will straighten out their obsession with risk aversion. but that might be a few decades off. unlikely trump can live that long, even if i wouldn't be surprised if he put an end to the two-term limit.
mats: risk aversion runs deep in the officer corps, it's hard to say
mats: >Top-down training directives and strategies combined with brief leader development experiences for junior officers leads to a perception that micromanagement is pervasive. They do not believe they are being afforded sufficient opportunity to learn from the results of their own decisions and actions.
a111: Logged on 2015-05-19 02:03 mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers