mod6: it's even happened to me. i rated a guy with positive rating, he didn't scam me at all. but he apparently scammed some other people.
mod6: i get trinque's worry; that he'll wake up and find his wallet emptied out; and he wants a pill against that. the preposed solution is fine for that. but signed ratings is not the answer imho.
mircea_popescu: and ironically i can give a negative evaluation in spite of my positive rating - other lady friend asks me about having kids with the guy - i'll tell her about daugther ; and if the daughter's not a total futz, if her drinking friend asks about dad he'll get a + notwithstanding he's an asshole. or maybe won't, depending on how much of an asshole he is generally. but there's the ambiguity.
mircea_popescu: the wot isn't a computable graph. i mean it's drawable, obviously, and the drawing's not futile, but just because the machine can draw it dun mean the machine grasps it.
mircea_popescu: mod6 not only that, but there's a lot of flexibility required in actual human intercourse. "x is a great drunk and a miserable father, so has - from daughter and + from me. i'm friends with the daughter and we fuck occasionally. problem ?"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:57 trinque: if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576722 << and what if he thought your grandmother was sexy ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents" << while reading, this is what I was thinking too. We've seen many times where someone reputable has a positive rating for X, and then later X scams out. These ratings can't act as a guarantee; which would place the rater in some leg
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576713 << i read it at the time. i didn't like it among other things because it exhibits unbounded complexity. iirc we discussed this briefly back then.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:46 asciilifeform: phf: if pubkey is preserved, and privkey of dead man -- well-destroyed, suddenly the 'donation of constantine' problem evaporates.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576690 << too many ifs ; and for that matter the problem of "what to do with the intestate" is unsolvable in the general sense. the best approach is for the man to write a fucking testament already. there's deedbot for this purpose, it is wrong to you know, have an ethereum-powered mechanism to decide FOR gauss what of the coffin liners should be rescued.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 12:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since we're on this btw, the way i want tmsr-rsa key generation to work is as follows : a contains a number of entropy bytes specified by user in tmsr-rsa.conf read whenever tmsr-rsa.conf specifies (such as urandom); b contains a base-tmsr string specified by user. c = base-tmsr(a).b ; p = nextprime(cut(sha512(c),257)) ; process is repeated for q = nextprime (cut(sha512(c'),258));
mircea_popescu: one particular angle would be that if we generate republic-rsa keys (see http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-18#1524210 eg) as opposed to koch-rsa keys then yes eulora server will have to dump its privately maintained wot to deedbot periodically ; but on the upside we get very cheap transition to the new format while maintaining all the backwards compatibility one could want.
mircea_popescu: basically this will include a (hopefully improved) rsa implementation as part of the client. the details still very much in air.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:35 danielpbarron: so i assumed people would still have to resister their actual key with the bot prior to getting their eulora account
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576658 << the way i intend THAT to work is that client connects to server, by sending encrypted magic packet which includes its fp ; if server has that fp it sends challenge string and logs in the player ; if server has not that fp it sends challenge string and proceeds ot character creation. nice and streamlined.
mircea_popescu: you will have to have ~a~ key online as a matter of course for the client to connect ; but it doesn't have to be THE key in any sense.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576653 << the way i have this sketched in my head is that you ~as your avatar~ have a presence that's distinct from you ~as your freenode nick~.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:31 phf: that was the conclusion of the thread last time we had this conversation, yes
phf: i checked b-a log because somebody mentioned activity, a few weeks ago and it's literally the same conversation. i remember he tried directly intervening, "warning" cockli guy i think, and cockli's reaction was "you seem like a crazy dude with an agenda", but i guess a strategy of "mpex is long gong and nobody heard from mp" probably works better
asciilifeform: ( d00d lives in a parallel world where , e.g., mpex is dead, and ready to tell any old-timer randomly reappearing in his chan - as they sometimes do - that it vanished long ago, etc )
ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/ad-hoc-routing-another-benefit-to-life-in-the-republic?preview=true&preview_id=235&preview_nonce=46dc0db338#comment-56 << /me waves at nubbins`
phf: asciilifeform: actually is the last letter in that pattern l or m?
ben_vulpes: rewriting things is my fave. giant pile of ones own poop to shovel, and at the end of the day nothing should have changed as far as non codemonkeys can tell.
phf: in case of znc you get the wonky ^ACTION ... lines
a111: Logged on 2016-09-28 08:17 Framedragger: aha, i wonder if the sending irc client encoded msg in some strange charset, and ACTION was *not* technically the first set of characters in that message, from point of view of znc.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-28#1549612 << so normal action is ^AACTION ... ^A, turns that when the line is too long it gets cut off (which is normal behavior) but in case of action none of client seem to do the regular split, meanwhile the irc server cutsoff terminating ^A, which breaks most parsers (including mine)
asciilifeform: i will point out that, for all of the horror of the 100% closed and ~15 GB (yes) mass of the xilinx dev chain, it runs on ANY LINUX BOX
asciilifeform: they all get mired in circular dependency hell.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:17 trinque: the fact is preserved that he who had this key said X
mircea_popescu: ah the toolchain
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's the verilog compiler.
BingoBoingo: From the local police blotter: "Five juveniles, a 9-year-old boy, a 10-year-old boy, two 11-year-old boys, and a 10-year-old girl, all of Highland, were charged with destroying property for allegedly breaking light bulbs on Christmas displays belonging to the city"
mircea_popescu: oh it's for them. i thought they had one for the luser lol. aaanyway, "The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances" << epic shit; i hope this spreads.
mircea_popescu: mind pasting the code ?
asciilifeform: meanwhile, so i get a crate with the infamous 'lattice ice' fpga. and go and set up the OPEN SORES!!!11111!!!! toolchain. and lo and behold, it not only bristles with CODE OF CUNTDOCT!!111 etc., but... won't even build
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576571 << "with keys, not necessarily by keys" ehehe. sometimes i'm rather grateful i'm right here to know wtf i meant by stuff i said. ye know, hanbot ? :D
a111: Logged on 2014-03-19 19:04 asciilifeform: and, finally, his moment arrived! von Kármán surrendered his orange ticket, took a deep breath, and said, "God, explain turbulence." Theodore von Kármán spent the rest of eternity burning in Hell.'
asciilifeform: iirc the retelling i am familiar with is due to uncle al.
mircea_popescu: im damned sure it was in the chan.
mircea_popescu: darn. did we hallucinate this then ?
asciilifeform: it isn't, fwiw, in kako's either.
mircea_popescu: the one.
asciilifeform: the one with von karman ??
mircea_popescu: o look phf, i can't link to the story of turbulent flow BECAUSE ITS NOT IN YOUR LOGS!11
mircea_popescu: ie, it's fully a liberal profession. (in some readings, a liberal profession is one where the sufficiently skilled practitioner eventually meets god.)
mircea_popescu: something like that. it's a little complicated, because there is some transcendence even in trade.
asciilifeform: merchants - for good or ill - live in the 'now'.
mircea_popescu: in any case - merchants, always of the strict practical persuasion, have no use for them ; and most of the "history" ie, retellings they produce is speculative.
asciilifeform: can't speak for others, generally i like to be in the business of supplying moon biters, but also would not mind giving idiots gigantic guns with which to shoot themselves.
mircea_popescu: the problem of interpreting structures of meaning without survivors is not trivial. which is why i said inept historian - the monumental tasks more often attract the idiots who don't comprehend scale than actually talented people who can take bites of reality the size of the moon.
mircea_popescu: so were bellbottoms the suck, or demonstrably awesome but hit by suck ray ?
hanbot: mircea_popescu depends on what exactly you mean by "read". it's not the case that i can't extract any value from them. it's certainly the case i wouldn't wager i wholly comprehend. and whatever's in between i'm not sure i'd call "meaningless"
asciilifeform: phf: the b00k sucked in ways that are difficult to even put into words.
hanbot: "this guy sucks" vs "this guy was demonstrably awesome and got hit by the suckray"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 22:26 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.
hanbot: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian. << i have a hard time agreeing with this; even should death prevent a rating reflective of the current state of things, a past rating from a ghost could still be "meaningful" in its distance from w/e the current status -is-, no?
mircea_popescu: aid business WITH the keys. the manner of conducting business is left to the faculty of the merchant ; at issue is the reference point of said business.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 20:01 asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576558 << well as it turns out, ratings are a lot closer to sexual intercourse than previously realised ; but in any sense what i meant was the point of reference (ie, i will fuck this curvaceous lady as the body presents itself and do business with fa9fblabla, which are the two presentations of the supposed same but otherwise uncapturable spirit). i didn't mean business BY the keys when i s
asciilifeform: trinque: this doesn't solve the ~expectation~ problem
trinque: asciilifeform: if one wanted to make a statement for all time about a key, there's always a deed.
mircea_popescu: trinque you can even have a system of "orders over X value or nth in a day have to be clearsigned" and have the user set X and n ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but they were not ratings.
mircea_popescu: trinque that's the consideration here. if you have the signatures, evidently people can trust you with larger sums, but how much larger i can not say ; but evidently you will need the management in place to be able to produce the materials on challenge.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian.
trinque: or "every user of this system accepts my judgement on the movement of coin wholly, or uses something else"
mircea_popescu: i don't have a very strong opinion on the signing of payment orders. i suppose it's a tradeoff of convenience vs corectness.
asciilifeform: there are several quite obvious scenarios where 1) i would like a reliable picture of what someone else rated 2) it is impractical to converse. one, discussed earlier, is death. another -- long voyages, at sea, on the run from nazis, with partizans in the forest, etc.
mircea_popescu: so that settles that. nevertheless, orders to pay CAN have to be signed, because obviously they will be opposed to the maker during settling of accounts.
mircea_popescu: and for this reason ratings can't have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
mircea_popescu: whether he did or didn't or did a bum job of it or anything isn't even at issue - the oppositive quality of facts distingushes them from mere meaning just like the thumb stands out on the hand.
mircea_popescu: and re the facts/fiction discussion : a very good rule of thumb to distinguish fact from fiction is right here - can it be opposed to anyone ? for instance, trump's election is a fact, and here it is a fact because i have opposed it to alf to force him to reconsider his political evaluator.
mircea_popescu: there's two reasons one does not wish to be cavallier with signed matter. one is purely technological, as discussed briefly above, but the more important one is ecology of the republic of the mind. you wish to make THE STRICT MINIMUM of signed statements you can get by with AND NOT A SINGLE MORE.
mircea_popescu: and in the process making a serious court impossible.
trinque: it would be flooding the world with things you have to one by one argue against in court, more or less
mircea_popescu: in fact, you can not at any point raise any objection to any of my ratings. they're whatever they are and you're more than welcome to go hang, there's no "detrimental reliance" on them for you.
mircea_popescu: and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents"
asciilifeform: other than napkin drawing in restaurant.
mircea_popescu: anyway. merchant law, which incidentally i advise all curious minds to review, not only long predates civil law or the british mandaciousa attempts to enact a systematized "common law" as older than it was - but actually informed all legal work of the states. they basically stole the merchant's code much like the french stole the templar's wealth.
asciilifeform: oh nm, found, in the end.
mircea_popescu: it's not just precedent, either. it has its own sort of contorted but domain-appropriate logic.
mircea_popescu: "you owe me 5 guilders" "this writ says i don't". "i never meant for my daughter to be chained to the post naked for all comers" "then why does this offer her ?" etc.
mircea_popescu: well see part of the problem is merchant law. so : there's two kinds of writs, one of which can be opposed to the author, which is to say if he later makes a claim, anyone with standing (like the guy he's making the claim against) can oppose the writ.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what means 'with a view of it being opposable to the maker' ?
mircea_popescu: and there's a damned good reason you don't, nor is it a service you offer : the difficulty of "looking at the data, establish its validity" exceeds building the ai.
mircea_popescu: people approaching this other river will drown.
mircea_popescu: if you construct the signing infrastructure, there's a river with a railway bridge. however, segments may be missing ; and this can't be known.
mircea_popescu: trinque the problem here is like so : if you don't sign the stuff, you have a river, which will have to be forded. people wanting to get across know what they're doing - fording a river.
mircea_popescu: which is how there exist these washpo that is a reputable source, qntra that is a spamsite etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform enemy already does this ; so does your gf. everyone you come into contact with is fabricating a fictional you from the whole cloth of their head.
asciilifeform: (as in the 'old ratings shown to man trapped in cave' scene.)
asciilifeform: my basic problem with unsigned-ratings is that enemy can fabricate a fictional me from WHOLE CLOTH rather than being stuck with selected pieces of what i actually did.
mircea_popescu: there have to be layers. my hitting return is "this statement was made" ; my signing should be "this statement was made with a view of it being opposable to the maker".
trinque: maybe you signed contract A at one point, then signed B which brought about termination of A, and I don't have B
mircea_popescu: trinque what does it mean then ?
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to give the wolf a falx on top of everything.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:52 danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576531 << this is a major problem, folks can then create alt-chans in which alt-wots live AND YOU CAN VERIFY - ITS SIGNED!
asciilifeform: i'ma let trinque illustrate, since my current understanding is that he sees the pov, and it is easier to have socratic thread with 2 rather than 3
trinque: but asciilifeform yes, along the ephemeral/gossip vs mark-of-cain fault line?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and note that the only fact in your list of facts is my dying. which imparts some fact-flavour to the rest of the string.
mircea_popescu: trinque i don't think you did, but we ended up with a whole front here and since we're discussing it let's discuss altogether.
asciilifeform: i am beginning to suspect that different folx want different and possibly incompatible things from the concept of wot.
mircea_popescu: this notion that ratings encode some sort of single unified pointed scalar truth has got to die already. it's not only very stupid, it's actually in the way.
asciilifeform: mats: i dunno that many folx walk around with notions of 'thousand year reich' directly present in their heads. but 'will last long enough for ME' is probably common delusion.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:50 asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576528 << they have to. there is no "one" answer. suppose the case where i rate someone X as a 3 because i dunno, we go fishing. suppose A asks me about X because he's contemplating going hunting, and B asks me about X because he's contemplating playing chess.
mircea_popescu: no whatever infrastructure development fund, i have nfi, the whole thing's vague as fake hair.
asciilifeform: mats: and every other obligation usg will gleefully default on, like fdr on his gold bonds
mircea_popescu: mats bannon got 1trn, they'll manage.
asciilifeform: and my rating ' mircea_popescu : +9999: best buddy, died in vietnam but not forgotten , my only trustworthy supplier of mersenne primes, there shall be no more but those he signed for me ' is equally 'fact' and certifiable as any rng bit
trinque: is not the binary number which represents a rating a fact, which encodes a meaning?
mircea_popescu: trinque i believe the correct pill to this would be to keep the moving sums small, rather than fucking the mechanism.
trinque: mircea_popescu: there are many enemies with many means of attack
mircea_popescu: but the rategram is not a fact, it's just meaning.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing transforms the rng bits into fact. they were fact, from the beginning, owing to the absence of meaning.
asciilifeform: sooo pray tell why the transformator that can turn rng bits into fact, breaks its teeth against a rategram.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no. and this confusion between fact and fiction driven by the engineering perspective that "oh it is a fact TO ME" eventually ends up with usg and the "fact" of "fake media"
trinque: narrowing the hole for that.
mircea_popescu: trinque so basically, to understand this, the problem you are working against is this situation where you are tricked into making false payments by a secret owner of your hardware ?
trinque: hm. you know what. if I stockpile encrypted OTP material which is also encrypted to my own key, I suppose it does the same.
trinque: i.e. I immediately spray all signed material to a box whose only function is to back up the pile of signed incoming statements, and over a serial diode.
trinque: except that it has also secret levers which can be pulled over the network card with a magic packet and all other sorts of nonsense
mircea_popescu: but the bare state of data isn't a fact ;/
trinque: not the encoded meaning
trinque: in the case of both WoT and wallet, from an engineers perspective I have a database which changes state when outside parties tell it.
mircea_popescu: trinque what do you mean by fucking up the db in that context as something else was being contemplated when i said it ?
mircea_popescu: because we've decided to live in the world as it is rather than wait for someone else (who ?) to make a better one
trinque: so then it tends towards why warehouse this at all
trinque: the hardware is all shit, and lies
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 danielpbarron: there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576522 << aha, very much this. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576523 << no, really, it's actually design so you verify it by asking the rater. if anyone ever goes "wtf" we know we have a problem.
mircea_popescu: there's absolutely no valuable information that would be lost if you fucked up the db today and we had to re-do it. just inconvenience to a lot of live people, but it's of the nature of "tee hee i garbled everyone's shopping lists as found on the fridge" not of the "tee hee i burned all extant aramaic manuscripts".
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:42 trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576515 << it is not a good thing in any sense. think for a moment : if the ratings are live, which is to say, they actually do stand up to their purpose of "if you try to eval x ask these people", then those people will re-advertise. if they do not, then they should have been deleted in the first place.
ben_vulpes: if 'gymnastics', then does it really matter?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: for all you know, i can decrypt by sending via diode into the nuke vault, but to SIGN i gotta take the rocket out to access the modulus.
ben_vulpes: the keys are out already, spend five seconds to write a thing if it matters to you.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes but the item does not sign anything.
ben_vulpes: oh come now you had the keys out when decrypting deedbot's pad
mircea_popescu: the old distinction between fact and fiction prevails. ratings are not facts.
mircea_popescu: this theoretical problem is evinced in practice by the expiration problem - what do you do about all the ratings i may have signed ? so you have rating for x at time t, what's this say ? is it correct or isn't it correct ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576521 << they are ?! why ? i have no intention for my rating of X to be opposable to me. it is information i provide free of charge and on an as-is basis, literally saying "if you're trying to eval X i may be able to help". it would be the height of impudence for y to demand something on the basis of "i have this here signed thing".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576517 << they're not equivalent but imo his is the better solution. though i'm not even sure what the problem is.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:39 trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576504 << to add... flavour to this, /me will on occasion go to pee, find girl taking bath, pee on girl rather than in the usual place. not only is it ecological and great for the hair, but it's a lot easier to aim.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:24 trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576496 << this is a bad idea, for multiple reasons. one of them being that it requires to give sign capacity to the clients, which is deeply undesirable ; another being that it encourages a retarded notion/expectation of repudiability.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576491 << it is very much precedented, by the age of sail. EXACTLY the same "men, on a boat, cooperating, not taking the ale and ribracks for granted" etc.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 19:13 mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
mircea_popescu: not that it's bad for kids, though it does promote some tilt towards the tomboyish look in girls that i don't find welcome.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 18:50 asciilifeform: aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576465 << i dunno what prisons you've been in, but nobody can be arsed to do the whole bickering bs as far as i saw.
mircea_popescu: with the light. you can put a chick to sleep right now by covering its head. the brain is eye-powered like in frogs.
mircea_popescu: you go to bed with the chickens ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576455 << running the "oh, that wasn't a wedding, who goes out in the desert to have weddings (outside of weirdo californians) and there was no leftover food or musical instruments or anything)" side by side with the AP footage showing all the lively colored bedding and pots and pans and various bits of goatfucker musical instruments is quite the COIN exercise.
asciilifeform actually went to this school. or rather, diff one by same name that used to stand in the empty lot next to that one.
asciilifeform: http://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2016/11/trump-supporter-15-beaten-during-rockville-protest/slide/1/ << in other lelz
jhvh1: danielpbarron: [KJV] Matthew 8:22 :: But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
trinque: if ratings are ephemeral, seems logs must also be. relevant here that we tend to rate in the logs.
trinque: we keep the logs, presumably forever
trinque: something else comes to mind; there exists in our logs a person named trinque who is not the present trinque
phf: well, speaking of history audit trail does introduce explicit history where there wasn't any
phf: neither current wot nor gossipd spec wot have the history component, because if you go by "there's no rating outside of rater" past ratings make absolutely no difference.
trinque: whereas I see them as distinct; wot is the history of my past and present gossipd connections, and indications of what I thought of them
trinque: it becomes hard to distinguish from the gossipd-graph, eh?
phf: for me wot is a partial externalization of a hawala network and as far as -1,0,1 is concerned ~perhaps~ indicates prevalent opinions among the people whose opinion i value, but by convention only. in this sense the wot follows the lords and not the other way around. it has some practical use like serving as a door bouncer and ostensibly letting newbs know who to talk to.
trinque: at least now we're in a position to discuss the cost/benefit of a forgetful WoT.
phf: oh so you were saying fundamental disagreement between you and danielpbarron rather than me
asciilifeform: that might belong to a long-dead great grandfather.
asciilifeform: the way i read danielpbarron's thought, was that he sees 'rater' as necessarily a living entity ready to carry on conversation.
asciilifeform: or maybe i graffiti'd it on the moon. or in corpses in group photo in afghan. wherever.
asciilifeform: yes, it is ~impossible to make a robot-who-rates , with tech as i currently understand it. does not change the fact that perma-ratings are a fundamentally stronger building material than 'go and ask him and see if he feels like telling you the truth'
phf: but what am i going to do with that knowledge? i'd still have to ask somebody (presumably you) to both proove overwnship of phuctor bot and to explain to me what those ratings mean. or else you have a document that you prepared that explains the logic, etc.
asciilifeform: (leaving aside that there is no effective means for securing a private key at a datacentre box )
asciilifeform: but picture , for instance, if phuctor bot rated keys that were phuctored, in the moment of.
phf: if i were to give a pubkey to a111 and it starts rating people based on how many btcbase references they make a day (there's a quota!)
phf: i don't know if we disagree there, but i don't see how that makes a difference
asciilifeform: it is, for instance, conceivable , from the pov of you folx, that asciilifeform is a bourbaki.
phf: asciilifeform: well, but what's the "more fundamental disagreement" stated?
trinque: it is also not necessary to say that because ratings exist in the past I must care about them as much as those more recent
asciilifeform: or the d00dz whose keys i phuctored
asciilifeform: what constitutes 'the rater'
asciilifeform: just of a piece of text vs. another d00d's pubkey.
phf: asciilifeform: when did vpatch come in? what the fuck
asciilifeform: phf: the thinking is that nobody should be able to create an asciilifeform-signed vpatch after he is dead. omfg, this is hard concept?!
phf: well, if that's a common understanding, then i don't understand mp's what is wot article
trinque: if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected.
phf: traditionally this is solved with "obama dun did it, i hear him knocking on the door"
phf: well, what's the thinking here? that after your death all negrated entities are "possible suspects"?
trinque: signing is the cryptographic act of observation
trinque: *the mere presence of
asciilifeform: (absolutely mandatory reading for this thread imho, and it is unfortunate that the piece was lost in the cacophony of the bbet disaster)
trinque: if I say "I love my wife" in it, then I do; signing "wife exists" doesn't mean I love her
trinque: I see this as the meaning of a rating already. "This exists"
trinque: ended up with disclaimer at top saying "I do not love these; I merely state that they exist"
asciilifeform: folx will throw any thought of indirect costs out of their heads, when 'talisman worx!1111'
asciilifeform: phf: talismans are problematic not only when they do not work, but especially when they ~do~. e.g., washing hands -- worx
asciilifeform: danielpbarron , i think, also believes in mechanized shunning, but takes it further yet, and would like to deny enemy access to ratings also
asciilifeform: it is how we build a universe with semi-permeable walls, vermin on one side, people - on other.
asciilifeform: weaponized shunning is the only effective weapon.
trinque: phf: I understood, and it would make more sense then to have a way of querying phf for his notebook
asciilifeform: phf: if pubkey is preserved, and privkey of dead man -- well-destroyed, suddenly the 'donation of constantine' problem evaporates.
asciilifeform wasn't there.
asciilifeform: during dinner with hitler et al, speer (among other things, reichsminister of architecture) made a comment about 'one problem, our concrete houses will leave very poor ruins'
asciilifeform: not one of you is taking seriously the 'how to leave a good looking and proper corpse' problem, are you.
phf: yes, but i understand you, and you don't understand me, there's really no point in sparing until there's a mutual disagreement over shared understanding. this is like sparring 101
trinque: if so, I say fine, I choose the tool called cryptography to do so
trinque: and I already know, "because then people can grab an item from the trail and say that's HEAD"
trinque: you are arguing *from* a conclusion rather than towards one
trinque: says rates and deeds in-game there