ben_vulpes: imma leave phuctor to stuff the log, kid is awake and i'm going to squeeze a skosh more dopamine out of the evening
ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel_p: fwiw i watched it before pinging you, nevertheless
asciilifeform: John Doe (the Tester) <testing@mailbolt.com>; << lel
ben_vulpes: look put a proper promotional video together you'd be happy to see in public
ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel_p: i saw a few names and project details, figured they were placeholder content
trinque: asciilifeform: oh? getting munched by the archive bot
gabriel_laddel_p: ben_vulpes: it is 14 min long, go, watch the whole thing, think about it for a bit and get back to me.
trinque: ahaha the timing of that ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: but anything with google in the dns is not hosted what madness are you spouting
a111: Logged on 2016-12-31 02:23 mircea_popescu: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1E261FCF04CFC3435CE00E1F39D1C2F153716DAFEB15474D4A7FB378624BA8CF << lolk wait, the entire modulus being a factor in others doesn't make this phuctiored does it ?
asciilifeform: i'll import revokes if i want to , motherfucker
ben_vulpes: how does phuctor know the key's been revoked?
asciilifeform: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/3FE2948410A538AD3196C12643428EEAC6A58584F642220D0E9297A2F49284BD << another similar.
asciilifeform: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AF624F70EF0E25FEDD7001E618D69D175990E1857E0E1CFA6FB48B9BEA646A41 << who the fuck is that
trinque: I switched the lookups to only ones concerning ssh keys
asciilifeform: for the reasons discussed earlier today.
trinque tapes in another if statement
trinque: know what, those reverse dns and geolocation lookups shouldn't even be on the gpg keys, and I don't see yet what it's matching in them.
trinque: asciilifeform: cannot pull up pages on the site atm
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/disgrace-the-sign-outside-the-clinic/ << Trilema - Disgrace - The sign outside the clinic
mircea_popescu: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1E261FCF04CFC3435CE00E1F39D1C2F153716DAFEB15474D4A7FB378624BA8CF << lolk wait, the entire modulus being a factor in others doesn't make this phuctiored does it ?
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/disgrace-the-house-is-just-as/ << Trilema - Disgrace - The house is just as
mircea_popescu: oh found it. and the reason google doesn't turn up is probably "artificial intelligence". http://trilema.com/2014/consent-is-a-myth-lets-see-how-it-came-to-be/
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2013/the-ungiven-fucks-a-modern-bedtime-story/#comment-94025 unrelated stuff dug up.
asciilifeform: the one where 'chick is unsure whether she is being used as a woman, or as poke chip in a hidden casino'
asciilifeform: it was in the piece about 'creepiness'
a111: Logged on 2014-07-30 13:57 asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
mircea_popescu: anyone happen to recall the trilema article in which i explain it's a fucking stupid idea to shoehorn female sexual choice into a source of male hierarchy because it puts all sorts of problems in the lap of young sluts they have nfi how to resolve ?
ben_vulpes: mats: usg and data in the same sentence, hyuuu
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: often i wonder what the remoras are even doing in #t. why can't they read l0gz like normal peoples.
ben_vulpes: mats: does the dome at least handle steep ballistics decently?
ben_vulpes: amusingly, .is actually wrote the book on rocketry-resistant fleets. turns out -- many small boats. hard to do that with the holy tent.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the actual defense is 'kill'em all'
ben_vulpes: the only actual anti-rocketry defense being "don't be anywhere near targets of interest"
asciilifeform: or at the very least get the disbelievers into that one spot where the old machines work, and shred'em
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what i mean to say is that it's about the only thing one could deploy around that many folks, is something that goes blooie in the air rather than a zillion rather-fast bullets most of which will come back down at lethal speeds
mircea_popescu: who knows, maybe enemy is composed of sufficient % of modern folks, the sort that live life of the mind, and believes.
mats: seeing as how hamas is mobile and the dome is static, i don't see how it could possibly work 9/10 times like .is claims
mircea_popescu: hey, they didn't say steel dome yes ? iron, sorta-worx.
mats: yes, there is a proximity fuse that disperses shrapnel
asciilifeform: the kind with autodestructors
asciilifeform: rather than cannon
ben_vulpes: can't exactly light the computer-controlled machine gun off at inbound targets over heavily populated areas
mats: http://thebulletin.org/evidence-shows-iron-dome-not-working7318 kinda old news, but for future reference, CIWS and such appears to be 90% propaganda 10% effectiveness
asciilifeform: or the jew from mircea_popescu's old tale, who dropped a cheque into a grave
asciilifeform: no shortage of these
asciilifeform: or them
ben_vulpes: ooh ooh or the ruskies who burnt hundies on camera for the transfer back to us treasury!
asciilifeform: http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/networks/the-crazy-security-behind-the-birth-of-zcash << quality circus material, via jurov .
mircea_popescu: this is why you get a russian, gets the soak done.
mircea_popescu: wtf do you do all day in cascadia, not buying drinks for artistic adolescents ? what is their life work, not this crapolade ?
mircea_popescu: i mean, she arrived in the mail. she came everywhere else.
mircea_popescu: he's added a third to his harem, she came in the mail.
asciilifeform: anyway, mentioned strictly because ben_vulpes unearthed .
asciilifeform: that was just the band's name.
mircea_popescu: they may butcher some random "foreign" dorks, especially if they're defenseless in an urban setting.
mircea_popescu: what's with the horses anyway ? don't tell me the russkis think themselves don cossacks or somesuch.
asciilifeform: in this film, 'we will kindle, fuck you, we will kindle, they will knife us and we will live, lands of the ancestors, etc, etc'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is context, 'kindling' is the catchword in ru penal code for 'hatespeech' ('kindling discord between nations')
mircea_popescu: they're all supernumerary, and chyldren.
asciilifeform: that's for the young set
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought that normally they fucked little chillenz or similar
asciilifeform: historically accurate to the point of wtf -- even radio controls (what good are they in a sim?) are there.
mircea_popescu: hopefully he doesn't decide to fuck any of the interns or anything.
mircea_popescu: there's worse fates.
asciilifeform pictures herr wolfram reading the article about him, and going 'neinneinneinneiennein!1111, banging head'
asciilifeform: in other lulz, latest visitors to my www, and then to nosuchlabs: employees of Wolfram Co.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/disgrace-dont-the-dogs-get/ << Trilema - Disgrace - Don't the dogs get
mircea_popescu: (to be perfectly clear - most of the eth budget went to propping the exchange rate, nothing else.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the loss was extracted in the field of battle, and came as actual, isis-equipping dollars.
mircea_popescu: nor dogs (except for their tongue).
mircea_popescu: but in any case - ethertard budget exceeded 50mn in 2016 ; and these are turkey dollars. this is more than the aggregate expenditure across all software branches in the united states in that year.
asciilifeform: (and 100,000x -- to rubyism and other unthinkable rubbish)
asciilifeform: easily 1000x the sweat went to haskell.
mircea_popescu: the currency of the reich is, as the original hitler well observed, a sort of sweat.
mircea_popescu: the "money" is not a point of interest here.
asciilifeform: dunno that hitler ever goes 'all in', the moneys (however counted) spent on, e.g., haskell, dwarf the ethertard lab budget 100+x
mircea_popescu: moreover, the strategic profile is not symmetrical : the initative is strictly not with hitler.
mircea_popescu: mp can afford to lose however much mp volunteers to lose ; the exposure profile is not symmetrical, hitler keeps having to go all in.
asciilifeform: the exact moment when hitler runs out of furniture to burn, is ~unknowable
mircea_popescu: then hitler tries to make "his own bitcoin", and pumps the battery, which mp drains at his leisure. but it is HIS, hitler figures, so he changes it. and changes it. each subsequent change resulting in erosion of his grasp over the battery in question. the wind blows the other way.
mircea_popescu: to which mp reacts with http://trilema.com/2014/an-era-ends-today-a-new-era-starts-today/ ; which is notable in the form, but not in the result. hitler gets to do his usual manipulation, and "win", but a) hitler is stuck denying the venue where he won exists, and this hurts him so bad he spends a year trying to get kakobrekla to eventually agree "fiat is a better deal" and whatever other "modern science & democracy" nonsense
mircea_popescu: so far the winds are not too favourable. consider the situation in the field : hitler has ~exactly one trick~, and it is the following trick : you know i shall fall, and i know i shall fall, and we both know we both know, but here's the thing -- the market can stay liquid for longer than you can stay solvent, especially if the liquid is liquid shit from my liquid shit pump. so come, take positions on my sotck exchange, reflec
asciilifeform: drainin' other folxs' batteries.
asciilifeform: drain the battery, if you will, that mircea_popescu et al charged.
mircea_popescu: that "and them only" trailer is mostly why we haven't had the pleasure. just as soon as hitler figures out how to remove it, he WILL burn his citizenry into a crips, as he always does.
mircea_popescu: no, actually - a forest fire that singes every ~law abiding~ participant and them only.
mircea_popescu: this is a best case view not supported in practice (by which practice we mean the repeated etherape, symbolic as it is of the chances of the premier science and technology institution in the world in front of a loose assemblage of things that don't, supposedly, exist.)
asciilifeform: (specifically, a node where somebody touched the hot wire, will accept blocks that other, traditional nodes, will not. and/or reject blocks with they ~will~. definitionally - forktronic.)
asciilifeform: that may or may not get forked at a particular time, but now ~is~ forkable, leaving you and anyone dumb enough to use your patched btctron on the -- almost certainly -- losing end.
asciilifeform: as soon as you touch the hot wire, you now have a 'schrodinger's blockchain'
asciilifeform: (for n00bz) http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-30#1594162 << it is important to actually go the gedankenexperiment, in one's mind, and understand why it cannot be fixed.
asciilifeform: the exact equivalent of meatspace circus sleigh-of-hand.
asciilifeform: but at any rate, this threatrical blinkenlight assemblage is simply to distract from the fact that the check IS NOT ENFORCED!
asciilifeform: otherwise interpreted as epochtime.
asciilifeform: arbitrarily, the comparison is only even performed if the magic is below LOCKTIME_THRESHOLD ( http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h#0042 )
asciilifeform: (spoiler: it comes from your system clock +/- the voodoo delta that trb comes up with using peers)
mircea_popescu: that's why the "pistols" discussion ends up where it does
asciilifeform: because it's '3rd rail.' they change ~any~ semantics, and -- bang -- forkable.
asciilifeform: they daren't. yet.
mircea_popescu: which is the type of thing alf is usually loud about, and all thinking men concerned :
davout: maybe i'm missing the semantics of "transaction finality"
davout: asciilifeform: this IsFinal method is quite weird, if nLockTime < blockHeight, the further checks on the txin are simply skipped
mircea_popescu: and if you are one of those who can summon the mental energy to convince yourself this [sort of thing] is accident rather than mens rea, you have my admiration.
asciilifeform: this is the liquishit 'softness' of 'softforks'.
davout: also, from reading the source, AcceptBlock is an entirely different beast than CheckBlock
mircea_popescu: typical-underhanded-do-the-opposite-of-what-it-seems-to-mean
mircea_popescu: there should be a word for computer code that does the opposite of what it "appears" to be wanting to do.
asciilifeform: the fallthrough case is 'true'.
asciilifeform: AND the blocktime thing. it recurses.
davout: so a block doesn't pass AcceptBlock if one of the transactions has nLockTime > blockHeight
davout: raises an error should one of the transactions return false for IsFinal ?
asciilifeform: because the bomb ~could~ drop ~tonight~.
a111: Logged on 2016-07-27 18:53 asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=0.10.0#0722 << still quite the same in prb 10 !!
asciilifeform: and observe, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-27#1510563 , the prb idiots did not ever dare to introduce eggoging-on-locktime-violated. because that there'd be a phork
a111: Logged on 2016-07-27 18:45 asciilifeform: thestringpuller: what EXTANT miners CHOOSE to mine, and what COULD be mined, if there were sane folks mining, are quite distinct things.
asciilifeform: carefully follow the logic.
asciilifeform: the ONLY branches on it, are here: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=asciilifeform_add_verifyall_option#0435
mircea_popescu: davout trb does not implement any of the prbisms. this means that ANY innovation included by the power rangers is a "while it lasts" thing, and building on top of it is setting one up for tears.
davout: iirc there were two *different* locktime 'features'
asciilifeform: the locktime thing is simply a hint that says 'usg-compliant miners, PLEEEZ dun mine this until block X'
asciilifeform: and even if it weren't, it does the exact OPPOSITE of what i asked for.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 20:16 asciilifeform: theoretically a 'will go in node xxxxxxx --- yyyyyyy inclusive or NEVER' field in tx, would have been sane. but it is too late, this is not in bitcoin.
asciilifeform: presumably the 'withholding algo' discussed earlier.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such thing as "immediately mine".
asciilifeform: theoretically a 'will go in node xxxxxxx --- yyyyyyy inclusive or NEVER' field in tx, would have been sane. but it is too late, this is not in bitcoin.
asciilifeform: davout: atm we are at the medieval tech level where we have -- afaik -- nfi how to live without lice, fleas.
davout: since vermin can hardly be completely exterminated the correct approach seems to be "don't go live in sewer"
asciilifeform: i do not know why this is done, nor have any plausible hypothesis. vermin do what vermin do.
asciilifeform: *on them
asciilifeform: and ~immediately~ fire the malleated one
asciilifeform: davout: they'll pick up high-S tx also, and sit on then RIGHT UNTIL you broadcast a doublespend with correct chirality
asciilifeform: by what, then
asciilifeform: somehow, this profits somebody, somewhere, or is perhaps a side-effect of some other idiocy.
phf: ftr, least i somehow become sql acid proponent, i'd like to point out that i'm the only person running tmsr infrastructure ~not on a sql database~
asciilifeform: davout: for whatever reason, there exist miners who SIT on a tx, right until the very millisecond that they see a 'doublespend' OF it, and then IMMEDIATELY mine the ~first~ one.
asciilifeform: davout: ahahaha recall the bbet shitstorm ?
mats: asciilifeform: best part is the tacit omission that usg can be owned by 6 year old with five bitcents to rub together
asciilifeform: because they are a malignancy.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-30#1594027 << this is only half of the headache. the behaviour of heathen nodes, who think that they already have 'your' tx, and the new one is 'doublespend', is the other half.
davout: nevermind that this transaction not only carried a fee, but also resulted in a net cleanup of the utxo set
asciilifeform: and in the block case -- yes, mechanically rejectable.
asciilifeform: davout: the entire attempt to mechanically distinguish 'double' from normal spends is an evil prbism
davout: no more "oh, but the transaction you're attempting doesn't match min fee $magic_number"
davout: crafts desired transaction therefrom, insert in mempool ~fin~
mircea_popescu: no, actually, trb should apply the above scheme EXACTLY like how v applies patches : you populate a wot with acceptable addresses
mircea_popescu: and incidentally "knapsack" problem is a fucking overstatement. here's a very simple strategy : 1. sort available inputs by size ; 2. if current step != last step, select first input that is smaller than tx going out else select the input right before that ; recurse to 1.
mircea_popescu: davout this is pretty much agreed upon, provided you mean by the words what we mean by the words.
ben_vulpes: hey, the power rangers wanted 20mb blocks for whatever reason. i want indices.
phf: everyone sensing there ought to be a fight, but everyone's agreeing
mircea_popescu: yeah just parser failed to return anything in the $controversy construct
mircea_popescu: is there something being discussed or we just shootin da breeze ?
asciilifeform: this is actually one of the reasons i insisted on eatblock and dumpblock
ben_vulpes: fine i'm going to go scream in a corner where i'm sure i'm the only one listening
ben_vulpes: which is why index the whole blockchaaaaaain
davout: i might very well broadcast other folk's txes from my node, just as well as i might broadcast my own txes from arbitrary shitnodes
mircea_popescu: there is that.
davout: mircea_popescu: ok, "forbid-insane-fee" then
asciilifeform: just walk the new blocks. as is done now.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 19:43 davout: imho a "warn-if-insane-fee" config knob is largely sufficient, and would allow removal of the "output selection" nonsense from the code
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-30#1593945 << this is the wrong approach. you want to not shit in soup, not to filter shit from soup prior to serving.
asciilifeform: there is 0 reason why any extra processing ought to be needed for this.
asciilifeform: index'em however you like, if new blocks aren't inspected for pertinent-to-me tx, the thing's a turd
davout: indexing based on address seems the sanest to me
davout: yeah that's pretty much the point
asciilifeform: even in the oldest trb.
asciilifeform: why? if you have the privkey, every incoming valid block is inspected for tx pertaining to $addr
ben_vulpes: with the current mechanism you'll have to import those addresses and rescan some amount of the blockchain to find the utxos you want
ben_vulpes: one of you is using it to describe the process of selecting signable unspent transaction outputs and another using it to describe the new outputs created
davout: imho a "warn-if-insane-fee" config knob is largely sufficient, and would allow removal of the "output selection" nonsense from the code
asciilifeform: unless there is a clear and fully-capable replacement.
asciilifeform: removal of old grandfather's pistol -- no.
mod6: i don't think that should be removed. i think that the user aught to have the option to select them if he wants, with rawtx.
asciilifeform: there has to be a basic mechanism where the thing can be used, in anger, 2009-style, sans perl/python/etc.
davout: the "let program select outputs to spend" half works half of the time, like you said "knapsack problem"
davout: in the same way a gun is usable "naked", just don't point it to your face!
asciilifeform: unless i misunderstand, you suggested removing functionality that ~was~ there in 2009
mod6: <+davout> mod6: i think it would actually be the least painful part to test << anyway, i hope so. im sure there will be more discussion in coming months.
asciilifeform: we had this 'lose the wallet!' thread.
asciilifeform: so, now what, the thing drags perl along with it into eternity? python ?
davout: script it on top of trb, don't integrate it directly in there is what I think is the correct solution
asciilifeform: there ~will~ be error.
asciilifeform: but there is no reason i ought to have to enter 8 decimal points BY FUCKING HAND 10,001 times to make a tx.
davout: asciilifeform: my opinion is that the system doesn't even have any business *attempting* to select which outputs should be spent, let the user plug whichever system he wants on top of the low level "raw tx from arbitrary inputs" tool set
asciilifeform: but the probability of 'txtron suggests 'send all money to karpeles' or 'send a million btc as fee' ought to be 0.
asciilifeform: the current behaviour is nuts.
davout: asciilifeform: i'm simply after the functionality of crafting raw txes from an arbitrary of outputs that *I* select, not wallet functionality in the sense of letting the system work out the details of "send X bitcoin to Y address"
mod6: anyway, im just working through the beginning stages here. so im certainly not an expert on rawtxns
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: he's still digesting "how to cut the wallet", let him ask for the things for which he's going to ask
mod6: and some other tools like 'listunspent' etc.
mod6: im not fixing the wallet, in this case, ftr. i'm just putting in the ability to create and send a raw tx.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: as i understand, davout was asking for sane-wallet, rather than merely raw-tx-hopper
mod6: we'll be discussing more in the near future i do suspect, Sir.
mod6: anyway! glad to have the help, and the experience from someone who uses this end of bitcoin quite a bit.
mod6: no room for error here, lest someone sends all their coins out as a large fee, or some crazyness.
asciilifeform: instead of the 'accounts' and 'wallets' idiocy
asciilifeform: as in, y'know, the thing that wallet ~ought to have done from day 1~
ben_vulpes: create and sign at least may be testable via the boost testing framework that's already in place
davout: try to craft a bunch of transactions, sign them, it either works or doesn't work, testing this functionality doesn't seem to depend on a lot of external, hard to reproduce, state
ben_vulpes: mod6: "test[ing] this" is actually how i got on the alpha centauri miner quest
davout: mod6: i think it would actually be the least painful part to test
mod6: well, ... feel free. but i think the coding part aside, which isn't going to be horribru, since a lot of it is backport anyway. but the testing is gonna be gnarly.
davout: pretty much the only thing i personally need to be able to rm -rf all traces of prb from my boxen
mod6: well, was, anyway. once the new changes for V are complete/tested/released, will be back on it.
davout: hence my previous questions about the state of this particular functionality in trb
davout: what do you mean? i create transactions from arbitrary unspent outputs, sign them, and broadcast them
a111: Logged on 2016-12-30 19:04 davout: asciilifeform: why is there a specific -caneat flag? is there something specifically dangerous about eating blocks?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-30#1593841 << it's part of the not-being-prb business, not to foist changes that have ~any~ potential sharp edges on operator
ben_vulpes: because it has to keep track of the inputs for all of the addresses it made ten minutes ago
davout: asciilifeform: why is there a specific -caneat flag? is there something specifically dangerous about eating blocks?
jurov: ben_vulpes et al.: how you want to present this in lxr? or are there more steps?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-29 22:54 ben_vulpes: jurov: would you be so kind as to update the lxr with makefiles.vpatch ?
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-29#1592846 << I have synced and pressed makefiles.vpatch, but there's no C code, only makefiles
mircea_popescu: trinque the idea isn't without merit.
phf: for the republic, not for hitler. he lacks that certain "good german" spirit, ja
phf: true, but alf also "won't touch the web"