asciilifeform: to code -- yes. but original thread concerned agricultural husbandry of old code, from heathendom.
mircea_popescu: since all code is code ; unlike how all materials are different atoms ; it may then perhaps follow that if you're going to code at all, best make it good.
asciilifeform: and gradually replacing the wood.
asciilifeform: we simply do not have the granite-world. and if we ever get it, it will be from 1,001 years of living in wooden one.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: same way i know 'it is NOT good to have the only vehicle be antigrav'
mircea_popescu: somehow that hair doesn't bother. but anyway. you find yourself with each foot in a different rowboat, because on one hand you don;t want everything to be high quality code ; and on the other you think shitty quality code normalizes it and begets more of the same.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's true that once women started shaving it "never stopped" and adult vulvas look preteen these days. there's even some eyebrow shaving and repainting. but nobody;s shaved off their eyelashes yet ; on the contrary, those are fetishized and at expense elongated, painted etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:11 trinque: reactor 99947 vaporized the king upon inspection. who's asking the engineer what his rationale was?
asciilifeform: except that it'll be no gain at all if as a result the expected material for ALL construction is granite.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 15:41 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607087 << this is actually not half-bad an idea, and it goes nicely in the direction of phf 's literate code, which i still think should be a distant, but present goal.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:07 asciilifeform: docs diverge from code routinely, and it is far from always the case that someone notices and corrects immediately.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607096 << yes but the meaning of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607284 was precisely that we CAN enforce "keep docs and code in same place ; and keep them in step or die". at least eventually.
asciilifeform: in principle, strong d00d-with-shovel is exactly same as bulldozer. but in practice he is not, and bulldozer changed the type of construction that can be reasonably contemplated.
asciilifeform: correct, but note, it is done here using wot mechanisms, rather than hand-cranked moderator.
mircea_popescu: that's kept sterile via airflow, which is to say, the continual negrating of random idiots who don't evidently have no business there. and such things.
asciilifeform: similar except that it is concerned with egress rather than ingress.
asciilifeform: (operating room is not even best example. ever been to what is in usa called a 'type 4 lab' ? the kind with air lock.)
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 15:47 mircea_popescu: there isn't a better approach to this. in particular "creating a semi-permeable membrane" is not one of them.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a better approach to this. in particular "creating a semi-permeable membrane" is not one of them.
mircea_popescu: there is no good solution to this problem, but small codebases aka fit-in-head is a very strong paleative, and to my mind its chief merit comes from just this.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-31 19:29 mircea_popescu: are you familiar with the von neumann set ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:06 asciilifeform: trinque: the real trouble comes when somebody shits and no one (including, often , the shitter) even notices until , years later, they step in it.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607094 << this is entirely valid and utterly true. as the space of representation is so much larger than any possible inquiry (refresher http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-31#1594978 ) it then follows that plenty of shits won't be found until stepped on.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607087 << this is actually not half-bad an idea, and it goes nicely in the direction of phf 's literate code, which i still think should be a distant, but present goal.
mircea_popescu: in summa, this then is the covenant of the republic : that everything here exists to serve your needs ; and that you can't have needs that can't be.
mircea_popescu: yes, i'm aware palm calculators exist for a while now. they don't "fix math" for the blonde ditz.
mircea_popescu: for the exact same reason classical antiquity couldn't have blind emperors ; we today can't delegate "the people stuff" to others. we also cant' delegate "the numbers stuff" to others. there's no mechanical way out of this.
mircea_popescu: skills are skills. the expectation that one will go from craddle to grave without having to touch arbitrary class of skills "because i just don't go that way" is entirely hallucinant nonsense.
mircea_popescu: so obviously her task at some point turned to... go out and talk to women. IN THE FUCKING STREET. she broke up in hives, she got gastritis, but my stick was firmer than the flesh and within a few short weeks retrospectively (that no doubt seemed endless then) acquired all the required skills, abilities and practices, and now can talk to random person on cue, with the best of the salesmen.
mircea_popescu acquired new $slavegirl. intelligent girl, very educable (i don't just mean in terms of training-for-slavery, a la BCT, i mean scholarily, with a native thirst for knowledge and a natural dedication to clean thinking) and altogether very pleasant. for historical reasons, unexperienced socially (twentysomething, second time she was in a bar, i took her there) and not particularily capable of talking to people.
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, afaik the only people alive today with serious skill in managing a large cloud of sub-identities, are scammers. and that this is unlikely to change.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607053 << either to them or else to they who keep making these walmart cards!
mircea_popescu: ~nobody wants their name on their tits ; a degree of magnitude more than that ~nobody want the blouse off the tits.
mircea_popescu: if it actually were what it pretends, they'd be topless.
mircea_popescu: that's what it pretends to be ; what it is i nfact, at least to my eyes, is more of the same usg social-democracy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik it is part of the strange 'let poor schmucks Feel Like They Have Servant for 5min' thing americans have going
mircea_popescu: usg.starbucks doing its part to fight the "rapey mp coffee".
mircea_popescu: Framedragger but the example shows ~shouldn't~ not ~doesn't~.
asciilifeform: (in usa at least they for some unknown reason have name tags attached)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: names of women you fucked. i know the names and there aren't too many of 'em. and for some strange indefensible reason i think this applies to many folx here. but this is a tangent
asciilifeform: this is exactly the 'we don't need versionatron!' thread but with asciilifeform's and mircea_popescu's speaking parts reversed.
mircea_popescu: to obtain a handle one must do specific things ; if they don't, they don't. i don't give out handles like candy because why would i.
mircea_popescu: i don't distinguish between eg adlai or nubbins ; i haven't allocated a handle ; they're just $dork, whatever.
asciilifeform: and not only scammers. for all of the annoying habits of, e.g., adlai, i'd still much rather have 1 adlai than to have to perform the calculation of 'is this an adlai-tulpa' every time a new name appears.
mircea_popescu: underlined as such in the wot article too. that's the important point : wot works WITHOUT the person being examined.
asciilifeform: lemme approach from slightly different angle. one of the reasons why wot works as well as it does, is a certain human weakness of malefactors, where they habitually stick to one or a very few persona, and make admissions-against-interest.
asciilifeform: it worked in the pre-mobilepnoje era.
mircea_popescu: were the girls in the school were asciilifeform went to when he was 12 ever engaged in that procedure where they call up one boy pretending they're $randomgirl who trulyloveshim for the sake of seeing wtf happens next day in school ?
asciilifeform: this is one of those things that looks feasible because the contemplated case is 'the same people i work with now, but in different costumes', rather than 'cacophony 50 yrs from now'
mircea_popescu: i dunno how much of this is habit. consider for a second the case of the nickname dude, who is currently having a meltdown in my comment section on the apparent expectation that i somehow care what he said and i read the various comments as comming ~from the same one guy~. he actually thinks this ; actually expects me to allocate INDIVIDUALITY on the basis of anonymous. it's almost as if i were to wake up every morning and on
asciilifeform: and with respect to this, none of us have the meatware to navigate a hypothetical #trilema where 1,000,001 tulpatrons are speaking, instead of 6 d00dz
a111: Logged on 2015-08-05 13:38 mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
asciilifeform: the reason why asciilifeform listened to mircea_popescu , and actually wrote the tool, is the very real human limitations that exist, http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-05#1225522
mircea_popescu: we can study contained examples if you wish, but the general principle is quite undisturbed.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here is that there's no way to reason in the manner you expect to reason. IF anything about the wot process is opposable to anyone involved ; then the wot process becomes by that measure less useful. no change whatsoever appears in the swamp it's made to confront.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you keep trying to design-for-ai. there's no need and no call for that ; moreover no practical way to ever do it. wot permitted me to ascertain enough information to eg behead that adlai schmuck most recently. there's no way "for you to explain how i reasoned to a machine", or even in general, and that doesn't hurt or stop me. moreover if there was such a way, then he'd simply act differently next time. and ther
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they can be so treated no matter what you do. any attemps you make to "make it impossible" simply break your tool.
asciilifeform: ('hey that wasn't MY sub-persona, i never signed the rating')
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what some luser must be thinking to join "dutch secret services". it's like joining the new jersey tv station. dude what.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 11:47 trinque: dutchies just wishing they were invited to the NSA, GHQ, BND party
mircea_popescu: that's what the wot is!
asciilifeform: then ought to take an interest in instruments that distinguish, precisely whom to shoot, and when.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a mechanical process for levers and swamp water.
asciilifeform: there is not. but detection can be easier or harder depending on how wot operates.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a mechanical way out of it.
mircea_popescu: this is still the case now. and always will be.
asciilifeform: while scammers try to play split-list games and unite, with sleigh of hand, their 'not been wrong yet' keys into a Great Hero
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://akphoto2.ask.fm/8cb/997d0/d29a/4e8f/9d23/753af0de208c/original/543557.jpg
mircea_popescu: and you also don't "must have signed gossipd lines", either. there was a mega discussion re that also on gossipd thread
asciilifeform: it isn't a 'you must', but rather 'you can have unsigned-ratings XOR multiple-v-personalities'
a111: Logged on 2016-12-02 23:36 mircea_popescu: and for this reason ratings can't have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
mircea_popescu: there's whole discussion re that. you got teh link ?
asciilifeform: but as i see it, if you are going to have the 'multiple personalities' thing, you MUST have signed ratings.
asciilifeform: main risk becomes the one described in http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/ .
asciilifeform: in this vein mircea_popescu's answer '1 man, 1000 keys' is probably the closest thing to practical solution proposed, but imho it does not eliminate the problem, it is still something that must be lived with
asciilifeform: but until then , need tools that let folx take MEANINGFUL responsibility, rather than volunteering at every turn to hang for things that they NEVER TOOK PART IN
asciilifeform: Framedragger: understand, i would like to live to see the day when we use NOTHING at all that is not from the wot.
asciilifeform: because unfortunately lenin was right when he wrote 'we build new world from the planks of the old shithouse we blew up, not from imported brick'
asciilifeform: and trb-genesis let it be CLEARLY and PERMANENTLY marked as not-child-of-mine, for each of the signatories.
asciilifeform: but Framedragger has a larger and imho relevant point, the ecc in trb is part of the world-as-we-found-it
asciilifeform: the rotting beast is anything but passive from my pov.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: there is, at this very moment, a rotting dead groundhog under asciilifeform's shed.
asciilifeform: the answer is unknown to me
jurov: asciilifeform: will there ever be a "works as described, use in production" item in this vein?
asciilifeform: the problem, hypothetically, begins years from now, when i am living in nazi dome in antarctica, or long dead, etc. but at any rate moved past all of this; and other folx pick up shiva and decide that it is now 'safe'.
asciilifeform: trinque: the specific cure to 'not my fault, i Just Found It' is specifically the human-readable comments. which i included plenty of , including asciiart jolly roger, in shiva glue patch.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: planning to join adlai?
thestringpuller: ^- for the Seinfeld fans, but they probably already know. (I was happily surprised).
thestringpuller: Curb Your Enthusiasm is back after a 6 year hiatus. Larry David says he was "busy with other stuff"
asciilifeform: trinque: now consider mircea_popescu's objection to the way i structured shiva patches.
trinque: but as I see it, the statement was made adequately
trinque: we also agree on the necessity of being able to make that statement
asciilifeform: trinque: in that instance, a number of people were able to sign some code without taking ~any~ authorship responsibility, but strictly to proclaim historical authenticity and provenance,
jhvh1: thestringpuller: It's not just you. danielpbarron.com/ appears to be down.
asciilifeform: trinque: consider the trb-genesis as a successful use case of the thing i am asking for.
trinque: there we agree wholly
asciilifeform: there is no mechanical way of preventing idiocy.
trinque: I have seen this in every company I worked for in earlier years. guy grabs some open source turd, then when it breaks he cries "not my fault! just found it!"
asciilifeform: (2) can, with rivers of sweat, be -- theoretically-- subsumed into (1), but most folx who think that they have done this for a nontrivial program, are deluding themselves
trinque: what is concerning is importing the github open source mentality of "not own code, not my fault"
asciilifeform: 2) code others wrote
trinque: as whether anyone wants to sign
trinque: asciilifeform: seems the problem there has as much to do with the fact that a gentleman would have to dedicate a very large part of his life to making further, sweeping improvements to the trb codebase
asciilifeform: there are two fundamentally different, for all time, types of code.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 13:52 adlai doesn't like publishing incomplete work, even if it's useful for cave divering archaeologists. asciilifeform might be the first to see a useful turd, if one should drop. until then, radio silence.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607066 << i can certainly understand this viewpoint, but have come to also discover (and appreciate the fact) that tmsr does actually tolerate 'incomplete work' if it's useful, and provide gainful feedback.
asciilifeform: *they
asciilifeform: trinque: understand, i ~like~ docs, version histories, literate comments, and use'em in own work. but hey do not solve the problem from subj thread in a permanent and unambiguous way.
trinque: reactor 99947 vaporized the king upon inspection. who's asking the engineer what his rationale was?
trinque: scope starts from the broadest possible assertion of "this is, so help me god" and only narrows if somebody says
asciilifeform: docs diverge from code routinely, and it is far from always the case that someone notices and corrects immediately.
trinque: example as it pertains to the history.txt ?
asciilifeform: trinque: the real trouble comes when somebody shits and no one (including, often , the shitter) even notices until , years later, they step in it.
trinque: and then when I shit, nobody seals my patch, and eventually I'm known as a floor shitter, and nobody regards my seal
trinque: where is it enforced that WoT ratings mean what they do, other than in the minds of thinking men
trinque: conventions in society are just that; nothing protocolic prevents me from shitting on the floor
trinque: room for as much rationale and backstory there as is required
trinque: only if someone were blindly applying patches if sealed, and blindly respecting ratings without regard to real relationship, would there be a problem.
trinque: and in those cases I don't think any sane person faults him when the patient dies
trinque: ultimately the surgeon does take full responsibility for the life of the patient, even when the patient is 99% likely to bleed out
asciilifeform: trinque: that is the actual risk.
trinque: there is the tulpa garden of horrors, and then there is the "everyone perpetually avoids blame" one
asciilifeform: trinque: see the 'wife vs cow' example
trinque: could always leave an expository comment in a file in your patch, but I don't know that it holds that "found item" is less the v-author's fault
asciilifeform: trinque: for 'you clearly picked up in the forest' to hold, said fact must be clearly and unambiguously memorialized.
asciilifeform: trinque: recall the 'tulpa' garden of horrors.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 12:06 trinque: beyond that, what kind of dishonest hanno shitbag would negrate you for an item you clearly picked up in the forest, and if he doesn't know you well enough to know what your work looks like, has no business rating you.
adlai doesn't like publishing incomplete work, even if it's useful for cave divering archaeologists. asciilifeform might be the first to see a useful turd, if one should drop. until then, radio silence.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 12:04 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606932 << the multiple keys thing keeps slipping out of your model of V. "this is my found 'liquishit' key".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607048 << i did not forget it, trinque , but it is a very bitter pill, as i suspect folx will discover for themselves when they actually take said pill
asciilifeform: as befits a literate d00d. write a vtron. or pick up an actual unsolved problem from the logz.
adlai is not a teetotaler in most fields, despite the expulpated exhortations.
adlai: the ready solution being to drink more (of the right fluids), talk less (of the wasted-breath variety), and maybe not as much in mircea's direction.
adlai doesn't drink much anymore, but apparently mircea can still smell the solvent, like a satisfied homeopathic patient
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 07:07 mircea_popescu: To be clear re ^ : dude's been trying to attack the republic for over a year by now through the remarkably idiotic procedure of speaking as if he has some weight. Because who knows, maybe we're all dumb dumb and this contextual approach actually works, we'll end up thinking he's somebody because he's been acting as if he were for so long, everyone forgot he isn't.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607021 << iirc d00d is one of those hard-drinking fellas; there was precedent in curing'em
trinque: beyond that, what kind of dishonest hanno shitbag would negrate you for an item you clearly picked up in the forest, and if he doesn't know you well enough to know what your work looks like, has no business rating you.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 02:25 asciilifeform: if there is literally no way to memorialize the fact that i took $item off a dead nazi, or dug up from sunken atlantis, rather than wrote it personally -- said item will have to be done without. (unless someone else in your wot does the imho monumentally idiotic act of 'adopting it as own child')
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606932 << the multiple keys thing keeps slipping out of your model of V. "this is my found 'liquishit' key".
Framedragger: i suppose this ties into the "view WoT rating as a representation of degree of certainty" approach, aha.
mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied in my mental representation of the fellow and won't be changing it. that's another name for certainty.
Framedragger: i'm like that (useless) teacher in kobo abe's "woman in the dunes", walking around the desert and examining bugs :) one day i'll fall into a pit which houses a house and a woman, and i won't want to get out
mircea_popescu: anyway, yes, it's quite unclear to me that gossipd need be related to this other thing
mircea_popescu: Framedragger hey, you've... not exactly learned a lot, but actually examined a lot in the past few months huh!
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i suppose so, at least the latest concept iteration as developed in the comments
mircea_popescu: truth be told it's not directly clear there's not actually a future for both insta and letter models (ie, irc and webforums, for instance, or phone calls AND mailing lists/bbsen) irrespective of historical poor implementation.
Framedragger: but the originally conceived idea of a site which serves 'smart' JS which does pgp must be disposed of. i even looked into the state of the art in pinning (say, JS) web resources in html5 so the browser can be sure it's being served the same stuff, but it's ~undoable because the whole browserstack is rotten (and obvs JS doubly so)
Framedragger: but the thing *could* be developed orthogonally to gossipd's efforts, which is nice.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 20:55 asciilifeform: wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606714 << if the thing was implemented as discussed (e.g. http://trilema.com/2015/a-proper-social-site-for-the-bdsm-community/#comment-117298) it would indeed not be centralised. or if it ended up relying on one central node, that node would be more like a passive store of pgp'd blobs. not to say that i believe this is the one true future and salvation,
mircea_popescu: ahahaha fucktards at ietf actually put 451 into their forked version of the internet standard.
mircea_popescu: Let it be plainly stated that you treat this sort of subhuman scum as if it were a person at your own peril. It won't benefit by your sacrifice ; you will sooner or later end up in the sad position of discovering you no longer have a soul.
mircea_popescu: To be clear re ^ : dude's been trying to attack the republic for over a year by now through the remarkably idiotic procedure of speaking as if he has some weight. Because who knows, maybe we're all dumb dumb and this contextual approach actually works, we'll end up thinking he's somebody because he's been acting as if he were for so long, everyone forgot he isn't.
asciilifeform: to continue the old thionyl thread: in other 'useful usg-mil substances asciilifeform had nfi existed!111!' : 'stabilant 22'
adlai: the bug is calling it a 'root', it's actually a leaf. the "root" of the relevant patch tree is the node you're trying to press. the "second root" which makes less sense (but should still not eggog) is "press two nodes"
asciilifeform: smoke moar, waft away the plague miasmas.
mircea_popescu: fancy the inept seinfeld boys of the time, trying to find the secret rubik cube configuration
asciilifeform: 'I read somewhere that whoever was calling for the most violence was who Bernardine latched onto and fucked silly. No violence, no pussy. '
mircea_popescu: (contrary to the deeply desired implication reflected in the name, there's no relation between a wizard and an apprentice wizard.)
mircea_popescu: anyway. it's a discussion of history not a proposal. woe to the apprentice wizard who fancies himself a wizard on the strength of having read the actual wizard's youth journal.
asciilifeform: of course we get to hear from the successful mircea_popescus, rather than the 'emperor nortons' who were SWATed like flies.
mircea_popescu: a shit what some random bureaucrat thinks on any topic. I asked the DA if he thinks he has it in him to survive once the world which I control is no longer tolerant of him."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nothing is easier than http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121016 "I didn't ask the girl if she thinks I'm any good or not. This is neither her business nor something within her purview. I asked the girl if she thinks she has it in her to try and survive once the world (WHICH I OWN) is no longer friendly to her. I didn't ask the DA for his evaluation of me. I couldn't give less of
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. but the article makes a very solid point : the current "start-up culture" is EXACTLY this. as discussed in the trilema "sv pedos" piece and ailleurs.
asciilifeform: part of it is the 'uncatchable joe' aspect
mircea_popescu: anwyay, the farmer's faith in the functional ability of their institutions, fbi or whatever, is entirely misplaced. about half my friends throughout my entire ro period were "underground" or "on the lam" ; for that matter the italians recently arrested that dude with the cesar ciphers ? he was "hiding" for 30 years by then
asciilifeform: quite believable. my understanding is that '65s-'75 usa was undergoing a 'british empire' moment where 'youngest sons' of the elite had 'lack of breathing room' and went uppity, and threw a bit of tantrum before being reabsorbed, bill ayers style, into specially-created 'church' bureaucracies
asciilifeform: Columbia University neighborhood, where lots and lots of people knew who they were. And miraculously the FBI could not find them.'
asciilifeform: 'Let me tell you about young Bernardine. She was a strikingly attractive woman. Beautiful clear olive skin. Busty and she showed it off all the time. And usually in high black boots. Not working class engineer boots, shiny black fetish gear. Have you seen the Weather movie? Through the entire “underground” period she wore that gear. They were “underground” on the Upper West Side, in the
asciilifeform: town there was no problem ever. Someone had arranged all this and it was not the Episcopal Church. Of course the two honchos who ran our chapter were both later exposed as pedophiles and FBI.'
asciilifeform: weapons, and an infinite supply of ammunition for training purposes. If they burned out an M60 by running it too hot there was another M60 ready to go. And a little farm in Wisconsin to use as a training facility. All the farmers in the vicinity could and did hear the M60 and the BAR, so could the local police, somehow in spite of every local looking daggers at the hippies when they passed through
asciilifeform: 'Myself I started to drift out of SDS when martial arts training became obligatory. When weapons training was required that was the end for me. What sent me away was not so much the notion of using a gun for a political end as that the providers of the guns were people who until five minutes previous could not fundraise a nickel bag for a party. Suddenly they had weapons, unlimited weapons, nice
mod6: Much appreciated. Other than this problem with the roots at hand, I think mine is in pretty great shape. The implementation of the all-antecedents axiom creates a bit of a slant here for what I have. But I'll do some digging into what your v99 looks like again and see if I can't get something resolved with that.
asciilifeform: lemme know if you need a hand with the algo (though imho my original proggy was pretty readable)
mod6: I appreciate both of your thoughts and considerations on the subject matter.
mircea_popescu: mod6 kinda the thing with prototyping, we end up with redesigns
asciilifeform: i also expect that (at least if traditional bitcoin continues to function interruptedly) promisetronic 'we the wise men agreed that hash H represents this tarball which existed in 2012...' will become entirely unnecessary and hence dispensed with in favour of actual pointers to deedbot
asciilifeform: probably this is the only consistent and long-term-sane method.
mircea_popescu: it can even be a collective key, perhaps not in the sense of actually sharing the privkey, but perhaps trbf/holder signs items at request ; with the understanding it's all foundling crap anyway
mircea_popescu: mod6 i expect the correct solution going forward is : a) for someone (maybe trbf ?) to make a Wildman McFucksticks key which b) will be used to sign a compliant rebase of tinyscheme / anything else anyone finds in the woods and wants to sign.
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu would not hold any of the signers answerable for its defects
asciilifeform: in the sense that it is of heathen birth, but nevertheless memorialized as an origin and not subsumed
mircea_popescu: there is no such benefit as "milk" here.
asciilifeform: except mircea_popescu is not doing without milk, he (and i, and the lot of us) is drinking the pus from syphilitic whore.
mircea_popescu: the odds of something being imported to break the structure because hey, convenience are nil.
asciilifeform: and, again, 'no cow -- no milk.' the alternative to shiva is not 'clean code from reliable people in wot' but the old satoshi abortion in continued use.
mircea_popescu: see the discussion of boeck's alleged "contributions" etc.
mircea_popescu: the concept of identity in the fiat world has come under scrutiny every single time.
asciilifeform: if there is literally no way to memorialize the fact that i took $item off a dead nazi, or dug up from sunken atlantis, rather than wrote it personally -- said item will have to be done without. (unless someone else in your wot does the imho monumentally idiotic act of 'adopting it as own child')
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, i am saying, flatly, that this isn't a knowledge. as per lieberman.
mircea_popescu: i caqn readily see why this irritates your otherwise very well developed and entirely respectable respect for knowledge.
mircea_popescu: there's no way to meaningfully assert "this leaf was made by $somenonpeople".
mircea_popescu: to put it in more direct terms : remove fog of war around authorship yes, but this can ONLY be done through denying the franchise to anyone outside of wot. only wot people can be authors of things, so in this sense anything, tinyscheme included, until and unless its meatspace authors fess up, is literally "found in forest" and will have to bear an actual man's name
asciilifeform: slave-fucking was a sometimes-thing there, evidently.
asciilifeform: eh even modern mexico, the actual-people-people are white (as white as spain, at least)
mircea_popescu: historically this isn't so accurate, everyone lived in the ~same shit.
asciilifeform: you give'em spanish names but they live in slave quarters.
mircea_popescu: there is no such "oh, we'll represent local-batshit in our system"
mircea_popescu: but understand that the only correct solution is to steal the natives babies and give them roman/spanish names.
asciilifeform: and so i remain skeptical of vtronic practices that obscure authorship, for whatever otherwise excellent reasons.
asciilifeform: aha. and one of the old plagues i aimed to cure, with v, was the 'fog of war' surrounding authorship.
mircea_popescu: this is, after all, why we made v in the first place.
asciilifeform: to elaborate on the 'no children' bit, extreme strictness does not leave us with 'either correct software! XOR stone knives and bearskins and NO software!' but rather with 'massive pile of old broken software'
mircea_popescu: it is also the only safe one.
mircea_popescu: corectness, and corectness only, is the goal. if it produces no children so be it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu also tends to ignore the very real risk of 'no concubines, no children'
mircea_popescu: not sure it wasn't ; pretty sure that was always there, but yes i guess before the expliciting
asciilifeform: i specifically asked to memorialize the fact that i did not write tinyscheme.
mircea_popescu: wife changes her name, becomes daughter of her husband's father.
asciilifeform: they fuck and have 1 child.
mircea_popescu: there is no merge in that sense.
asciilifeform: in the case of tinyscheme, i dealt with (or at least thought i was dealing with) the case where two separate bloodlines merge.
mircea_popescu: speshul snowflakes need not apply ; they may be own trees, or leaves in extant trees, or not at all.
mircea_popescu: the project is named after its tree's genesis, and conceptually exists as and only as descendancy from that genesis.
asciilifeform: how many other stylistic eggogs should v enforce ? tabs-v-spaces?
asciilifeform: they don't lead to unexpected 'wtf'
mircea_popescu: nevertheless.
asciilifeform: yes but all points on the graph are unambiguously pressable to.
mircea_popescu: besides the point.
mircea_popescu: the concept of "a press" towards more than one root is actually devoid of content.
mircea_popescu: no, it should just fail the press.
mod6: ok. what should the vtron do with these extra roots? place them at the end of the flow as leafs?
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu's dictum of 'have 1 root' cannot be enforced mechanically, vtron has no business deciding arbitrarily which root is 'the' root)
mod6: the main reason that I bring this up; 'foobar.vpatch' is being dumped out of the flow and causing problems since i've implemented the axiom of 'a vpatch can only be in the flow if all of its antecedents are present.' which causes a problem in this case as it gets chucked out as an orphan.
asciilifeform: (the reason for which, was to demonstrate that shiva was tinyscheme largely as-found-in-the-forest)