mircea_popescu: the louder if useless city kids don't have it, but what they have or don't have is irrelevant - anyone with a social media profile is dead as of last week
ben_vulpes: yeah kind of what i'm saying. the currency degradation is utterly irreversible, and that's the us' death sentence, no matter how great again the temporary may feel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't worry about it -- they had it two generations ago, and will get it again
mircea_popescu: the us itself opted for it ; in preference of 4/8 years of increasingly tenous pretense to the contrary by some pantsuited clown.
a111: Logged on 2016-03-30 22:56 mircea_popescu: russia exists out of the tolerance to poverty of its women and the rich subsoil. not much call for the latter in the much slower economy of the future. so rather than buying bonds...
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-30#1442347 << there was another, deeper thread re 'tolerance to poverty', the thing chinese have, and usa does not -- but i cannot seem to find
mircea_popescu: the dollar is never again going to be anywhere near 1k / btc. that's cut and dried.
ben_vulpes: this may be so, but getting the dollar back to 1000/btc is going to be harder with every rod of rebar.
mircea_popescu: strong currency is counterproductive before the folks even have what to save.
mircea_popescu: japanese yen in the late 1800s
mircea_popescu: hence the early soviet ruble / 1970s renminbi etc
mircea_popescu: in fast times, the unlikely is a good predictor.
ben_vulpes: comeback necessarily would have to entail sane monetary structure, which is even less likely than gutting the department of labor.
asciilifeform: 'american comeback' is a lulzy thing coming from folx who do not ~explicitly~ discuss the necessary crematoria
asciilifeform: and why even the advertised elbrus sits on 100% taiwanese chipset.
mircea_popescu: similarily, left state, purged the apparatus, came back out right ?
mircea_popescu: recall, the case of "comeback" that happened in your lifetime ?
mircea_popescu: this wouldn't be a civilisation comeback. on the contrary, it would be controlled civilisation demolishing. in preference of the inevitable alternative.
asciilifeform: what happened to 'moribund byzantium', 'all pasture in the city walls'
asciilifeform: we can start as soon as mircea_popescu gets the landsknecht through the time machine booth
mircea_popescu: then trump can write De Belo Iraco.
mircea_popescu: tear down every last mosq, and sink the bricks.
asciilifeform: in place of the old.
trinque: I cannot see the error in that logic.
ben_vulpes: er "why you don't like the epa gutting"
ben_vulpes: "oh i see why you don't like the epa, they fucked up the white pennsylvanian red state people you hate so much. so it's cool that penn no longer has potable water, because they're vile trumpers, right?"
asciilifeform: ~unscathed.
asciilifeform: which is why bush, reagan, et al, kept the derps around.
asciilifeform: usa dun really have a purge apparatus. or experience thereof.
ben_vulpes: gonna hear the same wail in re the fda as well, with the same response. "they fed us meth under doctors orders. kill them all."
trinque: they're not even people
trinque: this changes 0 in regards to what is beneath the soil
mircea_popescu: not so ; providing jobs for the new york times staff bfs.
ben_vulpes: stood by while the water table was ruind.
trinque: I don't like the insane asylum in dc any more than anyone else
ben_vulpes: epa was doing fuck all in the first place.
trinque: why do you think the EPA is being gutted as we speak?
trinque: asciilifeform: the prospectors ~know
mircea_popescu: better ; you get the upper ones out this way.
asciilifeform: killing derps doesn't get the ruined expensive gear back.
ben_vulpes: put ten through get one out. almost as good for the body politic as war proper.
mircea_popescu: once chitlin get to look into the face of their own irrelevance, things get going in a jiffy.
mircea_popescu: random 20yo piucked off the street thinks it's his option as to whether he works oil rig or not.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: there are a zillion fracking taps the saudis 'tricked us' into putting in.
asciilifeform: trinque knows about reserves that the prospectors don't know about ? why he is not out drilling ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it does, but for the reason above.
trinque: what the fuck imaginary world is this
ben_vulpes: yeah what fucking missing, there's shittons.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where'll the missing 80% of petro come from
ben_vulpes: i'm not holding my breath for anyone associated with the government to fix shit.
mircea_popescu: watch how there'll suddenly be money to be made once the shock troopers are done scraping the last "university student" off the sidewalk.
mircea_popescu: trump can ban all imports into the country, tomorrow. and he can stick to it, permanently.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: nobody here is laboring under the illusion that any money is to be made. there are social media twits, and a small group of people trading fermented trash around.
mircea_popescu: the latter got beaten to shit ; and the former isn't worth the farts it's spoken with.
mircea_popescu: any way you turn it, it's not been long enough. us could get any item fabrication thing going tomorrow, and be good at it by 2020. the oinly thing keepign this from happening atm is the faint pretenses of kiddos who think they get to have a say in their future activity and the misguided notions of old people that somehow china eating that and the us being left to make money out of doing each other's laundry is a practicable a
asciilifeform: trinque: where did the plastic dashboard come from ?
ben_vulpes: dunno about 'make', but some places cast al, fe, weld racks to rigs. saw it, drank with the people involved, don't know what you want.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the sheep-herders allocate ~0 capital.
ben_vulpes: but yes, look to the overpaid and highly visible imperial offices and not to the sheep farmers on lopez.
ben_vulpes: oh yeah i forgot about them
ben_vulpes: the performance-art-masquerading-as-commentary is growing shriller and less amusing by the day.
mircea_popescu: should be fun to watch the leftys get caught on wrong side of history / fingers in door, but whatevers. who cares about some dumb shits anyway.
mircea_popescu: so politico being what he is, he'll do what he can. and the bureaucracy being what it is, ie a spending machine, will sit its ass on its own mouth and adapt.
ben_vulpes: imperial regional offices are: intel, precision cast parts, flir and the roboflugen boeing division up the valley.
mircea_popescu: anyway. there's a bunch of moneys for the us to build nuclear reactors and oil pipeline process ; to lay train track ; some to do dumb shit like walls with mexico, hospitals, etcetera. exactly none to continue with the present "derechos" bullshit.
ben_vulpes: this repositing every single thing that happens as a direct result of the great inca in america is downright tiring. inca gives zero shits about this corner of its empire, leaves us to fend for ourselves.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: come off it, there are myriad small casting shops here.
ben_vulpes: it's a full-employment program, the money is definitionally wasted.
mircea_popescu: unmless he's building trains he's wasting the moneyt.
ben_vulpes: "where will the money come from?" "just borrow more, couldn't be easier."
ben_vulpes: "but why don't we spend the wall money on fixing our infrastructure?" "were you even /listening/ during the campaign? it's not an exclusive thing, he's doing both."
ben_vulpes: blue collar whites want to set rebar and pour concrete while the minority groups they think themselves above mow their lawn.
mircea_popescu: anyway, let's just say that the notion that the "blue chips" are worth anything just took a serious bath.
mircea_popescu: butr yes, it's always better to put the poor to work than to stroke the illusions of the rich.
ben_vulpes: "do kindly look to your history books and see how the last enormous welfare program worked out for its sponsors"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but those folks are weaker than a website. 20 man firms ; and those "men" are too afraid to grab an ass in the elevator.
ben_vulpes: "wake up babe army, the wall is not a racist thing. it's the largest works program since the new deal."
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's not even that gop split up under trump shock. much worse than that : the non-trump faction took a hard look around, discovered it doesn't exist.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: yeah does matter quite a bit how great the great again is
asciilifeform: well... asciilifeform wasn't there, boxing nixon.
ben_vulpes: and i do not see this "trump vs republicans" thing. he saved the party, the old cripples are on their way out and he'll be either vice president in 8 years or speaker of the house.
mircea_popescu: i dunno how much i credit these accounts.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: by some accounts, nixon was 'boxed in', for instance cut off from the nuke chain.
asciilifeform: (unsurprisingly) they are making a nixon-shaped box for him to sit down in.
asciilifeform: it's mr.t vs the ~whole machine.
asciilifeform: not only the dems, tho
asciilifeform: (obummer's executive decrees -- a-ok; herr tritler's reversal thereof -- OHNOEZ)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: from same circus, u.s. senate is proposing to ban mr.t from revering obummer's 'ru sanctions and They Stole Election' decrees
mircea_popescu: (the current mexico president)
asciilifeform: now, these were manufactured in the hundreds, rather than the thousands, so not mega-surprise.
asciilifeform: the rembrandts were burned in a stove. etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> (at one point amex co. flooded the market with surplus, and they were 'cheap enough to throw out', and then suddenly worth weight in gold) << it's entirely what the trader lives off.
asciilifeform: in $otherlocation i have a box with removable, pluggable fans on rails , where you can pull it straight out and immediately drop in clean one
asciilifeform: these are $100+ liquid bearing fans.
asciilifeform: and because over-speed fan (as in , with air applied) burns the bearing in <5sec ?
asciilifeform: because cpu melts in 10sec if you pull off the fan ?
mircea_popescu: so then why power it down
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would you have to power it down to replace filters wtf.
mircea_popescu: im not even sure what factor is worst for them. i think being powercycled worse than continuous use for one ; time probably worse than cpu utilization, unless poorly cooled. etc
asciilifeform: who recalls when asciilifeform tried to source the once-UBIQUITOUS motorola 68k cpu ?
asciilifeform: it is simply one manifestation of the 'markets are not magical' thing.
asciilifeform: (at one point amex co. flooded the market with surplus, and they were 'cheap enough to throw out', and then suddenly worth weight in gold)
asciilifeform: i do not know if this pattern is typical of exhausted nonrenewable resources, or if there even exists sufficient historic record to analyze
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 18:03 mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied that if one keeps the named hardware ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-06#1597436 convo) or their preferred equivalents that one will have no serious problems for the foreseable future.
asciilifeform: to briefly return to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607573 , as i was painfully rubbed into it yesterday, in own iron: the hardware follows a 'passenger pigeon' dynamic: 'today, plenty' -- 'tomorrow, plenty' ... ... 'suddenly, none'
asciilifeform: but this is for another thread.
asciilifeform: in turn it is also why i have an interest in a hypothetical nonbignumtronic (i.e. lamportronic) 'trb-i'.
asciilifeform: (sram can even be replaced with magnetic core, which in turn can be made by gurls with sewing needles, if it must. the mig-29 flies on magnetic core. and will fly in 2050, probably also on it.)
asciilifeform: these are 'kalash', they can be brought up with some patch wire, in a pinch, not even needing pcb, and exist in ~limitless junkyard supply, as does their ram and glue logic; and can be manufactured with sov-era fab tech, in turn can be re-created for less than what a dozen garbage trucks cost.
asciilifeform: it is part of why i have continued and daily interest in z80, 6502, and other 'museum pieces'
asciilifeform: fact is, in the not too distant future, even the very powerful folx will have many fewer cpu cycles to play with than common lamer has today. to the extent this is any concern of mine, i would like to design in such a way that the applications that actually matter, e.g., wotronics, have the necessary cycles.
asciilifeform: there is also, somewhere in u.s. air force, a pdp-8 up continuously since 1978.
asciilifeform: but they are few.
asciilifeform: i won't dispute that these exist.
asciilifeform: but nfi if there will be result.
asciilifeform: i will attempt capacitor replacement, after the new board is up
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform /me is building a new palace, bought out all the things!!11
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was just the other day sweating, to source a multi-cpu+ecc opteron board with >1 16-lane pcie.
mircea_popescu: ie, it'll never be the case that it makes sense to get newer. let alone that you'd want to.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-06 13:28 mircea_popescu: like what ? something like amd fx 9500 is, i bet, way ahead anything apple ever put in anything they made.
mircea_popescu: i'm satisfied that if one keeps the named hardware ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-06#1597436 convo) or their preferred equivalents that one will have no serious problems for the foreseable future.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the common trunk ~is emacs per se~
mircea_popescu: it'd be saner to have a common trunk which people change than to have to reinvent the wheel each trime a new person fires up a new emacs.
asciilifeform: i will sooner put on another d00d's eyeglasses than use a stock emacs.
mircea_popescu: anyway, before there's what to bake on that cd, we gotta resolve the "tmsr package".
asciilifeform: gcc has no future, but unfortunately there is not an alternative to gnat.
mircea_popescu: not entirely impossible that an i-gcc emerges eventually in the manner of i-b ; but i wouldn't hold breath
asciilifeform: there is also watcom
mircea_popescu: i suspect as the basis grows there's going to be a lot more such cross-verification.
asciilifeform: (note that no other property, other than 'pre-exists valuable-bitcoin', is thereby demonstratable)
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: if your vtree traces pedigree to one of THESE as genesis, i or anyone else possessing such a disk, can be satisfied that it is not a modern wholesale forgery
asciilifeform: incidentally there is such a thing as a 'stone witness', if you will. e.g., i have tarballs from 1990s on cdrom.
asciilifeform: but yes, the fact that asciilifeform made genesis using the recipe he gave, from vintage bitcoind, rather than pulled from own arse, is not a mechanically provable fact without witnesses.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 17:24 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607129 << this is unrelated to the discussion ; but since it's brought up this is also not possible. you can't obtain a way to re-create "rousseau's social contract" ie, agreement without the nod. that's heathendom pure and simple ; until and unless i nodded on your fucking law-tax-whatever it ain't got teeth. i don't care what you agreed with whom.
mircea_popescu: the moment has not yet exactly come, but it isn't long in the future, where random noob's best bet isn't to join here and start yakking away, but instead join some lord's castle, prove himself there, gain an ally, and then, in due time, be introduced here by that lord. if need be and circumstances merit.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607168 << which is how everything ended up being here, through this shifting stress process. but anyway -- ancient societies had a very simple solution to the exact problem, which was the status of the alien.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:46 asciilifeform: but until then , need tools that let folx take MEANINGFUL responsibility, rather than volunteering at every turn to hang for things that they NEVER TOOK PART IN
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 14:46 asciilifeform: Framedragger: understand, i would like to live to see the day when we use NOTHING at all that is not from the wot.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607162 << im kinda curious if this day is actually in my lifespan. a LOT more curious than about any of the nonsense re i dunno, "cure for death".
mircea_popescu: there's a very marked difference between "to signify your agreement do x" and "anyone doing x is signifiying their agreement to blabla". this outrageous confusion between the sign and the significant itself is enough to make idiots of all the fiat statists.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607129 << this is unrelated to the discussion ; but since it's brought up this is also not possible. you can't obtain a way to re-create "rousseau's social contract" ie, agreement without the nod. that's heathendom pure and simple ; until and unless i nodded on your fucking law-tax-whatever it ain't got teeth. i don't care what you agreed with whom.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607060 << Perhaps venture into the wilds and minister to heathens?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 13:49 adlai is not a teetotaler in most fields, despite the expulpated exhortations.
mircea_popescu: and i do mean that, the weirdo serbian dudes keeping rape hotels during the war were relatively preferable.
mircea_popescu does literally think very little of the two actual humans invovled in the production of this particular greasespot. i think there's little more shameful than having parented an adlai.
asciilifeform: there is 1 cure.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 17:00 mircea_popescu: yes, but you're also not the end all be all of dealing with idiots. the implication, evident as it may be, being that i'm his mommy and i should care about his welfare and his choice to lead with the wrong fucking thing is somehow my problem and oh aren't we all sorry that we're missing out on adlai not being dogfood.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607473 << i can see very clearly this angle, but it is only an angle that you can see ~after~ you set the Bozo Bit on somebody
mircea_popescu: unless you're looking to take over from them and do it in 5.5 months, what'd you expect happens.
asciilifeform: and yes incl. the kind where chick 'really wants to visit your office after hours and Learn How Robot Is Programmed' etc
mircea_popescu: yes, but you're also not the end all be all of dealing with idiots. the implication, evident as it may be, being that i'm his mommy and i should care about his welfare and his choice to lead with the wrong fucking thing is somehow my problem and oh aren't we all sorry that we're missing out on adlai not being dogfood.
asciilifeform: but submission, same as the chick's
asciilifeform: i did not read 'deal' in the quoted bit
asciilifeform: with possible exception that one 'had to be a cow' and other 'could have not been a cow', to borrow from mircea_popescu's piece
trinque: she has no pretensions to being other than tits
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Single building with house area and barn area and shared air circulation between the 2. Was all the rage in Wisconsin and Minnesota because Krauts are dirty savages.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: while we're on subj of 'gets in the way but not enemy' -- how come 'adlai attacked republic by dropping snr' but not indiancandy ? is it because the latter lays claim to tits ?
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606942 << The dirty Kraut immigrants in the North had this convention called "housebarn"
mircea_popescu: whore, scammer, confused ditz, they may get in your way - but they aren't the enemy.
asciilifeform: so how does the example work, plox to elaborate
mircea_popescu: those who would deny their identity, chiefly to themselves, those who'd take what that simon fellow calls "the bargain" for "civilisation". those are the enemy.
mircea_popescu: the only hostis humani generis are the anonymous usg tools. the gavin-koch-weimer-boeck-younameit.
mircea_popescu: traditionally these are represented with + and -.
mircea_popescu: this is a kind of service. scammer does another kind of service.
mircea_popescu: i'm an oracle, if you wish. people can ask me questions and get answers, which conform to a specified model ; and STAY conformant in the future.
asciilifeform: just like city wall keeps out the bear.
asciilifeform: as i see it, a large part of 'why wot' is to deliberately interfere with the 'circle of life' , to deny the scammer his easy prey.
mircea_popescu: yes, but this doesn't mean we suddenly not know they're scammers.
asciilifeform: but if we're going with 'answer lies in the sewers', then are scammers not 'part of circle of life' and 'janitors of the forest', mopping up the weak ?
mircea_popescu: i can. don't opt to, because i don't see the merits.
mircea_popescu: and in the former case : because I KNOW he's a scammer.
asciilifeform: the former
asciilifeform: so why the negrate
asciilifeform: if he were merely 'legitimately separating idiots from money', then why yes ?
mircea_popescu: who next do i hang, whores ? for taking from fools money for that which they'd have free if they weren't fools ?
asciilifeform: what's the distinction?
mircea_popescu: so no, there's no sympathy for "victims". don't be a victim. if you are a victim, either fix yourself or kill yourself.
mircea_popescu: the pretense that "oh, i don't need the republic" or "oh, i use the tools at my leisure" or generally "oh, i'm an independent thinker in charge of my destiny" is what gets shot.
asciilifeform: folx who will not tie the camel -- deserve no sympathy.
asciilifeform: this, yes. 'trust allah, but tie the camel'
mircea_popescu: which one, the one where hanbot says "anyone who could be bothered to use the wot would have known what pirate is up to ; yet none of you fucksticks did, and fuck you, now you wanna dork about the wot not working ?" ?
asciilifeform: the one where great stink of london, and queen barfed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the "from the sewers" spain discussion. yes, as desirable as ebola virus. keeps the
mircea_popescu: there's a strict difference between robber (who robs all comers) and invader (who robs you only).
mircea_popescu: and yes, the answer to "random hootrat" "targeted, planned, premeditating theft of $item" is to take another $item, cut hoodrat's mother's head off and stuff $item in there.
mircea_popescu: you're misusing terms, that's definitionally not theft.
asciilifeform: the only reasonable answer to targeted, planned, premeditated theft, is to disproportionalely punish the rogue. (as per mircea_popescu's disproportionate-punishment article)
mircea_popescu: even so. as any half competent mobster can tell you, by the time you're targeted for theft your organsiation's been utter shit for a while.
asciilifeform: to borrow the 'bullet vs shrapnel' old saw
asciilifeform: there's 'thief addressed to-occupant' and 'thief with your name on it'
mircea_popescu: thief is, as our russki friend points out, only out to do crime to us for goods he could get other place.
mircea_popescu: suppose you find your girl in bed with another oh nm that. suppose you send girl to market, she comes back defrauded. who do you punish, her or him ?
asciilifeform: if i gotta bite ~every motherfucking gold coin~ , that is time that i am not doing whatever-else.
mircea_popescu: ideally trhough punishing the "victims".
asciilifeform: it is the ~principle~
mircea_popescu: but yes, in olden days there'd be.
mircea_popescu: i don't think anyone cares about a kg of produce enough these days.
asciilifeform: in righteous olden times there'd be a hanging.
mircea_popescu: you may also file a complaint if the weighs don't match ; if they pile on the offender won't be able to hire a stall there. that's about it.
asciilifeform: without honest weights and measures, there is no market, there is (in words of spiffy mircea_popescu article!) 'put maybe-potato in this bag, get a bag of maybe-coins'
mircea_popescu: you can go have your things weighed there.
mircea_popescu: nope. there's an official scale kept by market administration in all markets
asciilifeform: and betcha they still prosecute folx who diddle scales when selling goods by the kg, or alter petrol pump, etc
mircea_popescu: i care about romania today in the sense you might care about the hittite empire. it sunk.
mircea_popescu: the 1996 version certainly was.
mircea_popescu: this is introduced at the latest to 7yos, and it's how it is, permanently.
mircea_popescu: romanian (at least before it was invaded and colonized by nato) culture has no concept of tort. the universal opposition to any attempt to pass the responsibility buck is "si daca-ti spunea sa sari in fintina, tu sareai ?" ie, and if he told you to jump down the well, would you have ?
asciilifeform: the bezzle is an example.
mircea_popescu: most crimes actually contain their punishment. greek style.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger it's an age-based thing. younguns tend to try it out because thye need to because they suck ; as they stop sucking they stop needing to and adult identity is born. nothing wrong with any part of this.
asciilifeform: and dishonesty -- is always paid for, in the end.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my criticism was specifically that structuring them ~unopposably~ is an act of dishonesty.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 16:21 asciilifeform: it is partly the long-term 'ecological' perspective on this practice, that bothers me; but also that pretending to be multiple people, while being one, is a fundamentally dishonest and truth-hiding act.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1607339 << just some conceptual posturing from me, but: i maintain that it's not 'dishonest' and may in fact be a robust strategy to survive in the world. it's easy to misuse it, though.
mircea_popescu: the whole problem is that it's not possible to make it mandatory.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no argument there. not like it is VERBOTEN to structure the identities in a treee etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ben_vulpes and davout are evidently struggling with the trb ; so was mod6 before we fucked up his week with v stuff ; diana_coman is purging idiocy out of eulora and so on. plenty of people.
asciilifeform: it is partly the long-term 'ecological' perspective on this practice, that bothers me; but also that pretending to be multiple people, while being one, is a fundamentally dishonest and truth-hiding act.
mircea_popescu: original thread was vague and ramified. i don't see what more you need than alf-fucks-goats key ; and the bugaboo of "but mp, then everyone can make random keys i won't know about" seems more like a childhood nightmare than anything.
asciilifeform: incidentally i am not seeing much uptake for the 'walking the walk' of mircea_popescu's position, so far. afaik asciilifeform is the only one currently struggling with ada, for instance.