mircea_popescu: yes, but the problem is at lowerst N.
mircea_popescu: but they must be because i am working on block n with 1k holes in it./
mircea_popescu: FOR ME however, and unbeknownst to them, this is becoming a crunch.
asciilifeform: ( recall that casks have time parameters. they do not have to be promiseheighted 'for currentheight+1' immediate fill! )
mircea_popescu: 90 get returned AGAIN. fair deal, as far as the nodes are concerned, ie the distant cousins did nothing else nor anything worse than the original 1k.
mircea_popescu: 300 of these casks get returned. fair deal.
asciilifeform: this is, note, unlikely to be the top
asciilifeform: at whichever level of the pyramid where the '4th roll' happens - is where a child's head rolls.
asciilifeform: ultimately guderian answers if the tank attack failed.
mircea_popescu: there isn't a "this is a 4th roll of this cask - must fill" field in your protocol.
mircea_popescu: nobody is responsible, everyone got the cask once.
asciilifeform: all children are responsible for their children.
asciilifeform: the responsible child's, who else
mircea_popescu: (because as a miner you got this cask returned for the 5th time, whose head do you cut.)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-28 11:56 mircea_popescu: to demand miner makes a certified statement to the effect of "offset 0xa to 0xb in block y is reserved for txn 0xc" is putting a constraint on this p2p system the likes of which it can't conceivably bear.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-28#1619755 << later realized that the protocol ought to permit returning an unfilled cask to the parent, so he can reissue it to another child. this would make for a less unforgivably-tightly-coupled system
asciilifeform: let's come back to this part; i'ma walk the list.
asciilifeform: whole thing is about 'marketize timely tx-gathering'.
mircea_popescu: and not for lack of trying, with always the same abject results.
asciilifeform: miner cannot reproduce the tx-maker, with his fee.
mircea_popescu: the reason man is the head of household is that he can do juyst fine without woman ; not vice-versa.
mircea_popescu: yeah, there is. the fact that node can't reproduce miner but miner can reproduce node.
mircea_popescu: "no, you're a bunch of orcs with delusions of agency in others."
asciilifeform: the algo put miners in the saddle. another algo can put them into the latrine where they belong.
mircea_popescu: "british empire decided women should be fucked -- we're a different empire, decide otherwise"
mircea_popescu: whatever attempt to "turn the cock against the man" will fizzle just as soon as man feels like it. the cockbearer is a matter of fact not a matter of convention.
asciilifeform: it is possible to flip his decision around, just the same.
mircea_popescu: yes, but here's the only important lesson of life : it is NOT POSSIBLE to adminstratively decide who are the chicks and who are the cats.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's aim was to consider gedankexperiment trb-i where this cock is turned around radially, at the miner. who, reaping most of the cake, ought to also absorb the cock.
asciilifeform: and also oughta have expanded re the motivating factor. which, possibly, was apparent from the thread context, but ought to have been explicit:
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, the whole segwit thing could be best described as "a rather braindamaged attempt to implement half of stan's casks"
a111: Logged on 2017-02-14 17:51 mircea_popescu: trinque understand the problem with "I will also be piling up the signed material for my records" : if during your lifespan you manage to lose eg a 30yo hdd, because you've built a reviewable system those txn will be reviewable. are you on the hook now for refunds ?
mircea_popescu: a seventh and final problem : you now constructed a chain of casks, on top of the blockchain. consider what happens if node fails to keep his ENTIRE history of casks EVER issued : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-14#1613884
mircea_popescu: (imagine how well this handshake'd have worked on any other venue, hurr.)
mircea_popescu: wouldn't you rather i finish first ? 4/5 done
mircea_popescu: in fact most usecases that don't reduce to "we know each other so really we don't need bitcoin in the first place" fail to be served by your scheme as it is.
mircea_popescu: b) i point and laugh at some idiots. they demure. i ruin their shit. they bitch and whine. i now have to specifically go on the hunt for nodes that DON'T lend an ear to the idiots bitching and whining ? on my own time & dime ? why the everloving fuck. the entire fucking point of even having cryptocurrency in the first place is so that i can rape eth, and flaunt the rape, and nobody can do jack shit other than flimsly psychode
mircea_popescu: and if i try to meet some... they don't roll anything down... a day later finally someone rolls something down and so i put my txn in and it... doesn't get included. wtf is this shit ?
mircea_popescu: a sixth, also major problem is that the system offers no serious guarantees to the user. think of some situations : a) i mined some bitcoin back in 2011, today i clean out the closed and boot up old laptop, to check out the tits and bits of ex gf who was back then hot and heavy into me. i jack off, and then snoop around and find a bitcoin wallet with ~500 btc in it. i go to spend it... and discover... that i know no nodes...
mircea_popescu: on the internet"), the closest thing is google-ish "advertising bidding" whereby google presents you with some details about a click and you have less than 300 ms to make a bid, which it matches and delivers ; b) is VERY likely to cause major delays. your system would, on the basis of pissguessing, require hourlong blocks or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: a fifth, major point is that the current ~ten minute blocks are predicated on loose coupling of "casks" (current situation can be deemed to be that all miners roll infinity of casks at all times to all comers, and all pubkeys are nil) and no negotiation whatsoever occurring either downward or backward. the dual-negotiation system you propose instead a) has never been tried in practice (which practically reduces to "can't work
mircea_popescu: refore it's always that bids depend on asks, if either depends on either (ie, if the market is very new) at all. the evolution of the eulora market is very instructive in this vein, see for instance http://trilema.com/memoranda-and-shit-like-1800s-high-diplomacy
mircea_popescu: a fourth, minor point, is that you have your market primitives ass-backwards. no price formation is ever envisaged to have "asks may depend on bids" as an edulcoration of "asks are fixed ; bids are fixed" because it is always possible to produce a pricing function for the product (based on cost) whereas it's never possible to produce a pricing function for the demand (demand is a psychological, not a physical phenomenon). the
mircea_popescu: moreover i think the original satoshi design wrt to this aspect is actually very wise ; and my expectation (as per say http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoind-not-quite-ready-for-prime-time/#selection-77.298-77.516 ) is that i should be able to make block-filling txn if i feel like it.
mircea_popescu: a third, and rather major, problem is that you will have serious trouble creating fixed width transactions in general. the reason is that the amount of information itself varies ; you can pretend to push this inconvenience all the way to the user ("hey, always use two inputs and two outputs and fu!") but it's somewhat unlikely to ever stick.
mircea_popescu: (fellow was trusted by "everyone" to have best infos as to the situation in europe ; when he offered half price for the bond tranche everyone erroneously decided napoleon had won.)
mircea_popescu: if however i offer half the "current price" for a share, i am not so engaging. moreover the case exists in history, for instance at the root of the rotschild fortune
mircea_popescu: there's a different, much less notable problem wrt to what constitutes "a rotten fill". if i go to the stock market (i mean the old, gentlemany, pit of hand gestures thing) and bid "sentiments" for a certain share, i am in fact engaging in retarded behaviour, on the level of sjwing, and will, and should be kicked out.
mircea_popescu: to demand miner makes a certified statement to the effect of "offset 0xa to 0xb in block y is reserved for txn 0xc" is putting a constraint on this p2p system the likes of which it can't conceivably bear.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason a man will fuck ~any woman he encounters naked or in any even vague kind of peri-nude state. without this property, reproduction'd have long ago failed. there's similarily a reason miners currently accept absolutely any txn into a pool of liquid shit.
mircea_popescu: there's a major problem with the very tight coupling your write-up may be read to envisage wrt cask filling. there are, as far as reality goes, two lists : a list of available txn slots in blocks, which is fixed and aforeknown, and a list of desired txn, which is neither fixed nor truly aforeknown. the workers moving the latter into the former (miners + nodes) are necessarily going to have serious trouble doing a very fixed a
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re your piece (you know if you had intelligently published it ON YOUR OWN BLOG i could have left a comment there instead, and in a year or whenever this were to be reviewed we wouldn't have to go grepping the logs like idiots) :
mircea_popescu: wtf "nothing sexual happens". in a fucking theatre ? that's insanity.
ben_vulpes: also something something mildly transgressive with the homostuff
ben_vulpes: i guess there were raves as well
ben_vulpes: trinque: horny teen girls need a culturally sanctioned place to be horny in public, 'twas the best most of america had post y2k
ben_vulpes: i don't much know about paths out, but hatred is definitely the fuel for the torch i use to burn a moat around my tiny castle.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-21 22:48 mircea_popescu: and then she hates her parents.
trinque: to anyone born in a cultural sewer, hatred is along every path out, even/especially the laziest one.
trinque: that the character which embodies this is "AI" is not important; it's behavior is entirely human
trinque: while harlan ellison is still on the mind, to a young trinque, his story was one of the first (yes) indications that total rejection of others was a thing.
asciilifeform: trinque this is the casks thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah, on 2nd thought it probably does not belong there. But at least is clearly marked as not belonging !111
phf: trinque: it's double entendre in a musical form. she's singing about a girl who likes lollipops, but of course everyone know what the author (gainsbourg) ment. later she grew up a bit and had a falling out with gainsbourg once she learned the trick
mircea_popescu pictures trinque in beatles uniform, "michelle... i don't speak the language... but i can perceive the hole..."
trinque: my god the dancing cocks
mircea_popescu: 40s. 40s is fucking big band / andrews sisters and nobody giving a shit about getting the clap.
phf: i actually thought that shangri la clip was from the 40s or something, hence the "serge gainsbourg later ..." :o
mircea_popescu: in the background, there's this steve martin - kathleen turner movie in which she's a black widow and he's a brain surgeon. woman has nice legs and a fine disposition ; what a fucking waste of a reel.
mircea_popescu: they at least have the common sense to whisper rather than squeal. how the fuck people manage to put up with the squeal is beyond me, but if this is music why not fuck pigs.
trinque: the weird sexual constipation that thought this was racy
mircea_popescu finds fake lesbian teeny bopper "show me the money" russian frauds much more appealing.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder they're not in turtlenecks.
phf: i like their clip for shout, because of mary weiss's budding woman come ons. serge gainsbourg will later take it into very roman polansky territory with his yeye girls.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thEKxFNCuT4
trinque: I waited the whole fucking video!
mircea_popescu: there's no general rule two bit crack whore can't do an epic strip number.
mircea_popescu: im not even sure it's terrible, the piece. but the author is certainly this mercenary hack, would-be-copywriter-if-anyone-were-hiring sort.
mircea_popescu: trinque nothing wrong with that, is there ?
mircea_popescu: might as well be connected to "far east spirituality", seeing how it's just about the same thing, bored, idle and useless middle class cali chicks trying to find something to do with themselves that would still be useless and improductive.
phf: i'm thinking klezmorim as reinterpreted through the 60s do your own thing prism, "happenings", clown with an accordion being "playful" and "weird". it's hard for me to fully connect this line because the whole scene is repulsive
mircea_popescu: and yankovic was iconic at some point in the (late) 80s
phf: there's one nice thing that came out of harlan ellison, https://www.mobygames.com/game/i-have-no-mouth-and-i-must-scream
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dont worry about it, people routinely read 5k+ word trilema pieces, and they're not even specifically about something.
mircea_popescu: think harlan ellison, or the fucktard that started scientology.
phf: asciilifeform: the usual 5 people on the channel, and the one dedicated shadow NSA agent that's assigned to this channel
BingoBoingo: phf: You aren't missing anything. The problem is your brain is working.
asciilifeform thinks 'holy fuck is the trb-i article looooong;' who will have the strength, to read this.
trinque: indeed, I see the guy's session though and I screwed something up last update
mircea_popescu: somehow fake news fails to mention THIS WOULD BE THE FIRST US BUDGET SINCE FUCKING REAGAN.
mircea_popescu: of course it's also 2x the expenditure on "science", or "environment" crap... so whatevs.
mircea_popescu: that's about 2% of the federal budget, ie barely a ripple.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, trump wants 54 bn cut off "most federal agencies", ie the libertard state.
deedbot: Provide the full 40 character key fingerprint without spaces or dashes.
asciilifeform: fortheloveofgawd, MONTREZOR!!!!111
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
trinque: the cask concept is very interesting.
trinque: there are a handful of those
trinque: that has to be from the ancient db where things were done by key ID
asciilifeform: if anvil drops on my head tonight, imho there is enough in today's log to reconstitute the recipe.
mircea_popescu: anyway. taking away the miner choice wrt to what transactions are included would be a major step forward, goes on the list.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh the boojum'll turn up. it is not given to ~anybody to invent 2 nice algos...
asciilifeform: (if there is a shortage of casks coming to me from upstream -- i raise my price for downstream. etc)
asciilifeform: incidentally each level of the pyramid could automagically price the casks he issues.
mircea_popescu: this nut, always with the doubling down.
asciilifeform: i challenge the good folx here to find the lethal boojum in this algo. because it almost seems workable.
asciilifeform: and at the same time grade nodes by degree of promise-keeping, as described by mircea_popescu .
asciilifeform: scheme pictured above does suffer from the 'no canned tx' headache. but it does solve the 'miner eats 100% of cake, the rest -- do laundry' thing.
asciilifeform: (i.e. the inner cask)
asciilifeform: the terminal sig can belong to a node, rather than a miner, if miners prove resistant to signing anything
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if he wants to make promises -- they gotta be opposable
mircea_popescu: mno, miner ifnormally tells his nodes he wants txn ; much like lord of manner tells women of the house he wants a girl added.
asciilifeform: h1 is the sig of 1st hop from miner; h2 - second; etc.
asciilifeform: when he mines it : 1) all of the participants know whether he has kept his promise; and whether each level of pyramid has kept its promise;
asciilifeform: at the bottom of the pyramid, a tx author requests a cask from a node, and fills it (assigns his node-and-miner fee to the caskchain specified by the hash he was given.)
asciilifeform: these in turn issue casks. and pass'em on downstream.
asciilifeform: here is how it'd work, roughly. a miner generates rsa-signed messages , occasionally, let's call'em 'empty casks'. a cask consists of a declaration, 'i'll include a tx within N blocks, i promise, for Q btc/kByte; and oh, here's a nonce.' the casks are distributed to the next level of nodes away from the miner ;
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 22:07 mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:17 mircea_popescu: if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
mircea_popescu: there's even a name for it, i forget.
asciilifeform: but if you could fly anywhere for 0 money, supposing your were willing to do it on some unknown date up to month in the future -- quite a few folx would
mircea_popescu: that if you wait long enough eventually an airplane will fall into your yard does not make airplanes a free product outside of the airplane market.
mircea_popescu: thats the cost of market usage. i can do it when i want.
asciilifeform: it is possible that the planets simply aligned for me, the gods smiled, every single time.
asciilifeform: and i did not have to suck anything behind the curtain...
asciilifeform: i do not know for sure. but i have send personally some 0fee tx, and -- somewhat to my surprise -- they got mined
mircea_popescu: how do you know they're 0 fee ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my puzzlement is re the continued existence of 0fee in conjunction with 'blocks are crowded.' can you picture a city where trains are full to bursting point, but they continue letting a third of the passengers in for free ?!
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu nails it, the block subsidy makes it largely uninteresting to bother with squeezing the most tx fee from every available byte of ullage in block
asciilifeform: there's a difference between 'mostly' and 'actually no strings'
asciilifeform: ( bottling it was , with tech of the period, -ev )
asciilifeform: the way i see the empty blocks, and mass of 0fee tx, is that it resembles the old days of petro drilling , when natural gas was flared off
mircea_popescu: they're markets alright. the fact that a block subsidy covers 80% or so of the value of a block is the dispositive factor ; and it disposes.
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of cunt, beer, tv etc given away for free every day ; doesn't make these not markets.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:16 asciilifeform: it ~failed to materialize. the continued existence of 0fee tx, anywhere, ever, is proof.
mircea_popescu: there it gets iffy.
asciilifeform: wasn't referring to the d00d with the cock ring, but to 'i have control of an addr with btc in it, and willing to pay the market rate fee, mine my tx' arbitrary martian.
mircea_popescu: but yes, all metaeconomic motivation. i wouldn't call it ccountereconomic. much like me treating the whores well in the 90s contrary to male ideology of the time was not countereconomic.
asciilifeform: aha. and -- if you are 'civilian' -- most of these folx are decidedly NOT 'your friends'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619482 << right now, keeping a node is -ev for almost everyone who could be doing it. only oddballs with countereconomic motivation of one kind or another (e.g., trb experimenters) , plus miners themselves, plus serious txers ( e.g., mircea_popescu ) have a desire to do it. there are not so many of these. it is rather like relying on entirely on coprophagics for your sewage disposal needs.
trinque: the ongoing quest for acceptable male undergarments eh?
mircea_popescu: in other news, https://media.8ch.net/file_store/b2dedbb82ca691f8f645b2ce243853a6438ce7bbddb6c67d095da7104953cbc0.jpg << why do redditard dwellings ALWAYS look like the same fucking homeless shelter, cheap stuffing all over the floor etc ?
asciilifeform: incidentally it'd also test trinque's 'miners out in the open' thing. miner who comes out of the curtains, could collect 100% of the fee, rather than what relays left behind
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the repeal or replacement ?
mircea_popescu: it is the format i expect the market to take once block subsidy drops enough, which is to say in 2 to 3 halvings.
mircea_popescu: in this scheme, a node would only relay a txn to another node if that other node promised it MORE than what it in turn had promised the user.
mircea_popescu: now, the historical solutionb to the problem, as well as perhaps a workable solution here, is the intrinsic oracle. if user relays txn to a node WHO MAKES A PROMISE (such as for instance "the txn will be included before block n" ?) then the nodes can be scored by their oracle value ("what he said turned out true!) and suddenly you have a more meaningful node market.
mircea_popescu: today we have a vaguely similar situation, wherein node world evaporated but not entirely, perhaps in large part because all the players want to keep an eye on all the others.
mircea_popescu: it's somewhat amusing that history repeats itself, in that the gossip market only existed because of the interest of powerful players -- it's not like servant women managed to gossip all on their own! but not like they were likely going to get paid for it either!
mircea_popescu: generally, the mempool function as go between users and nodes. this function is important.
mircea_popescu: for instance. there's many ways to look at it, which is usually indicative of our not understanding something more fundamental.
trinque: I can see it; while my mempool does not have anything to do with validating incoming blocks, it gives me my only means of shit-testing the rules by which miners might be filtering transactions.
mircea_popescu: it does, on the first pass.
trinque: then it seems reasonable for any node operator to accept this cost of doing business
mircea_popescu: it allows the miner plausible deniability.
trinque: how does the presence of my mempool today prevent some miner for mining whichever txn he chooses?
mircea_popescu: because there isn't a third.
mircea_popescu: trinque but you need either to a) talk to people who might not mine your tx ; or else b) accept living in a usg-run bitcoin world.
trinque: I do not need other people's transactions to verify a block
mircea_popescu: trinque ~same reason you walk down the street in view of everyone rather than just future employers and spouses.
mircea_popescu: (currently, from a purely cs theory / systems design perspective, bitcoin can be laughed at because its blockchain is akin to spirogira strands. most ridiculous tree known to nature.
trinque: and since they are engaged in transaction processing, ought to carry the full cost of doing so
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yeah, the only thing is that if you actually do something like that you are better off dispensing with the notion of "block" and instead create a sort of tree for a blockchain
trinque: holy fuck the fog of metaphor
trinque: it is not distinct from the present day
mircea_popescu: kinda what the whole mempool does, reduces the wallflower problem. (irl, girls don't dare go up to boys lest other girls think them sluts, and boys don't dare go up to girls lest other boys think them losers)
mircea_popescu: either his rigs don't cost money, in which case it's a proof-of-reddit coin a la doge, or else they do, in which case stfu you're not invited to the party.
trinque sees very little chance of discussing the actual item and tires of chasing it
mircea_popescu: wait, what ? how the fuck would you remove "incentive for miner secrecy".
asciilifeform: if anything, nuking the possibility of pools (as for instance i favour) would exacerbate it.
asciilifeform: trinque: say we stick to the trb-i thread. gotta specify what specifically about your concept of trbi, that would remove the incentive for miner secrecy that exists in classical bitcoin.
asciilifeform: trinque: just don't be surprised when other nodes drop you
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:10 trinque: to ask perhaps a stupid question, what is the reason for all nodes running mempool, rather than only those nodes which are mining?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619279 << i suspect the blockchain-node vs mempool-node split (3rd or so item to be jetisoned) happened like... two years in. once they got the "ligthweight" nodes or w/e bullshit ; non-verifying miner nodes et all.
asciilifeform: trinque: this is doable right now, you can comment out the mempool in trb...
trinque: how bout you criticize *that* rather than whatever you like
trinque: asciilifeform: under this imagined scheme ~the only way~ anyone can process any transactions is if he opens an orifice to receive them
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phrased this way, it elementarily falls down. q was whether you could do the deed ~without~ promisetronics
asciilifeform: so i'll be the 1st to tell trinque 'thanks'
asciilifeform: trinque: go and draw a chinese miner into the open, today..?
trinque: asciilifeform: what did you miss where I said "node should advertise whether he wants to mine"
mircea_popescu: you find yourself in the ridiculous posture of trying to invent a drm that works and off the cuff.
trinque: in which case cost is upon me and the miners I talked to, and nobody else's shoulders
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: idea is that market gets to twiddle the number, neh
trinque: still no answer why this is better than me having to transmit to a mining node in the first place
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you'll never get the magic number right.
trinque: you can just wrap it in the relaying node's signature, and the relaying node gets whatever he demands of the fee; meanwhile miner wants the copy of txn that gives him the most fee
asciilifeform: ( to cement this down for l0gz readers : what you'd need is a mechanism for pubkey-signing some material already signed by another pubkey, whereby the original signature is preserved -- not necessarily bitwise, but in the sense of remaining fully verifiable -- but the new one is not strippable off with any reasonable amount of cpu cycle )
asciilifeform: theoretically you ~could~ have a leaktight hose where hop1 takes a % of a 'node and miner fee' preallocated by tx author; hop2 takes ~his own~ % of what hop1 left on the table; and so forth. but the requisite mathematical device for protocolically encumbering a tx is afaik undiscovered.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-06 18:37 thestringpuller: marketing Snoop Dogg is making a fortune from. d00d is a genius at extracting $$$$ from white girls
mircea_popescu: that's why all the efforts to help "black people" as they were understood by white people created a thin sliver of black people tuned to entertain white people atop a large mass of exceptionally disenfranchised if somewhat authentic black people.
mircea_popescu: but yes, in geneeral rewarding hardship creates the problem that it is cheaper to simulate hardship than to go through it.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:03 asciilifeform: if you let ANYONE, under ANY circumstances, appropriate some of the value of a tx without the consent of its original author, you create a sybil-feeder, where the last hop (i.e. the miner) can simply eat 100% by simulating the passage of the tx through 1,000,001 hops of fictional nodes.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619276 << well you wouldn't allow someone to appropriate the value of the tx, but of the tx's context.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Heckler & Koch VP70 - Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%2526_Koch_VP70>; Hk VP70 The gun that changed it all - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0Wq5_3rkqd8>; Heckler & Koch's Historic VP70 - Tactical Life: <http://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/heckler-koch-historic-vp70/>
mircea_popescu: thermosetting polymer.
mircea_popescu: these aren't much worse than metal.
asciilifeform: you can have a cardboard barrel also. for the same 1 shot.
mircea_popescu: they're technically plastics because of the process through which they all work, but that process is no longer fixed one single organic chemistry thing, but a bevy of them.
mircea_popescu: much like say "composites" today is a lot more than the "glass fiber" making the better motor boats on the black sea at the period.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619262 << "plastics" in current practice is a very different material from "plastics" in the 1970s soviet standards book understanding. it ain't no longer pvc, plexi & pp/pet.
trinque: it would be polite to have a nervous breakdown at the very least
mircea_popescu: somehow fails to raise any serious errors, either. "o hey, turns out on examination... i do not actually exist!"
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 17:59 trinque: as though the brain, dereferencing a null pointer, picks another at random
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tldr - asciilifeform failed to square the circle
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: and i can hardly picture the low-density 'subcoinbases' actually ever making it into a block .
asciilifeform: as i see it, what is missing here is the knapsack per se
asciilifeform: i.e. what does the vectorization actually accomplish ?
asciilifeform: how is this different from the old-fashioned scalar coin where the ~quantity~ decreases ?
asciilifeform: (and, more importantly, how does a system having coins taking the form (a,b), rather than scalar (c), not reduce to same (c) == a*b ? )
asciilifeform: is it the knapsack problem, where coins are now vectors, rather than scalars, they have a volume and a density ?
asciilifeform: and (as iirc mircea_popescu observed also) it would reduce to ~same situation as today, where the folx with the serious hashing iron would eat ~all of the cake, and everybody else gets to do the laundry.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it does seem to reduce to the earlier 'let's say mining were what you did to make a tx, and there were no blocks as such' neh ?
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 20:17 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, the staged-mining i had in mind was more like: a valid block can contain a bunch of coinbases as long as they add up to a specific difficulty-value. whoever finally puts the block together cannot steal the rewards of the lesser pieces, and it would be just as hard if not harder to make replacements for them to fill the rest of his block's space.
asciilifeform: ( now! for all i know, they wrote directly to mircea_popescu . but notice that he is not burning with the desire to share this fact. the secrecy incentive remains even for folks N degrees separated from a known miner ! )
asciilifeform: afaik the real boojum is that miner has overwhelming incentive to stay secret, and the more powerful -- the moar so
trinque: this may very well be a bug; I'm not lauding the thing
trinque: miner will in both cases mine the txn he chooses and fuck you