mircea_popescu: ah calender is the paper forming thing yeah.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: 'isolation' in the sense you picture it, would be a useful thing if it actually worked. items like, e.g., vmware, come close, but still no cigar (you can leak bits via cache skulduggery, as discussed every six months or so in the log for past 3+ yrs, and various other ways)
mircea_popescu: until you have net interface that somehow (how the fuck ?!) doesn't get to read/write to memory, your isolation is soup served in a calender.
mircea_popescu: isolation is the metaphysical concept of running software independently on a machine which shares bus access among undefined peripherals and has no way to isolate cpu instruction runs.
Framedragger: well i did, but you disagreed with the definition
trinque: Framedragger: no, I said it's not a fucking thing on the same machine!
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the xwindow thing was a simple example of the lowest fucking level of this. what isolation. it never yet happened.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in "modern computing today", http://68.media.tumblr.com/ba3119f7a99000a0d0d0660f0de315a3/tumblr_nr4qqlinuP1uvik0co1_400.gif and then http://68.media.tumblr.com/c7046a6346bca40065837e467e72cdc4/tumblr_nr4qqlinuP1uvik0co2_400.gif
Framedragger: i only see folks denying the concept of isolation, i maintain that it's not altogether a useless concept. disagreement in premises
trinque: twenty year old kid says in 201x "oh I will solve the problem of system state management on unix"
mircea_popescu: listen, your position is horrible because you said "cant say x" and then x was immediately said and ... what now ?
Framedragger: but rather more to do with deployment, reproducability, ops, etc
Framedragger: that said, docker's 'main aim' isn't even isolation for the sake of security, so my weak point is even weaker.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger more like "used docker, liked it, wants to dockerize other things" therefore defined by tshirt.
Framedragger: "used docker" therefor "defined by tshirt" q.e.d.
trinque: "no this thing somebody else built defines me and I have the tshirt"
trinque: "oh but in theory"
trinque: Framedragger: and what of the myriad privilege escalations that have happened right through the cocker daemon
Framedragger: a process by which one restricts the system-provided resources that a particular entity (just "process", for now, say) is exposed to; the effect of which is that the entity functions as if in a stand-alone system dedicated to its purpose
mircea_popescu: i am saying the core concept of isolation is not useful. what now.
ben_vulpes: and then i waste a year and untold piles of shitbucks on docker
trinque: you may not use the term "isolation" without defining it
Framedragger: *sigh* i'll grant it that concepts are leaky and can't apply hammer to all problems etc etc; but you can't pretend that the core concept of isolation is not useful. just isolating fs, process, and network is already useful.
trinque: Framedragger: the fuck is "isolation" ?
mircea_popescu: the whole point of the "we'll solve problems with plows dragged by 1024 chickens" is that you then DO NOT tyurn aroundand pretend each chicken is an individual bipedal miniox.
mircea_popescu: gyess what ? they still are.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 17:20 phf: "you want meaning in your life? lol. here's 50 books of meaningless rituals. that you have to perform daily. the smarter you are the more rituals you get. knock yourself out."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625537 entirely. ther'es hordes of chicks who are taught to dick about with "google analytics". there's hordes of dicklets who docker. there's a whole population of people who in 1817 would have been making textiles by hand.
Framedragger: i expect folks regard the "crash and go away" as a feature - just restart it bro, etc.
mircea_popescu: it's great for otherwise idle dorks to dick about with.
ben_vulpes: no bitch, you will give me that process that is hosed. i want to diddle it further.
ben_vulpes: "oh, no, why would you ever want to do that? aren't you a professional opsbro? with centralized logging? containers are ephemeral, you low-dough derp! they crash and go away!"
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625594 << docker containers are *supposed* to be ephemeral. 'volatile containers' in itself is not a worthless concept. don't take it as me advocating for them, just, ftr.
asciilifeform: in other noose, hey, hey, lbj, my CsI:Tl scintillator diode is here
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 19:33 asciilifeform: Framedragger: you will notice that tools which 'invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless' proliferate, whereas ones that penalize shaved chimps for being the worthless biowaste that they are, tend to disappear and then have to be excavated from 1km of dirt, or evaporate entirely
mircea_popescu: you know it's going to shit when the cheese starts widening in this manner.
mircea_popescu: yet another layer of indirection.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i never can remember which of the ex-relevant colonial powers are not in which instruments. eu except britain, nato aparently w/o sweden, but with norway, there's something else without norway and so on
asciilifeform: hey if there can be a 'latvian army' why not a dutch one.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the two are economically about the same size, but the dutch army would count as a half regiment of the turkish.
mircea_popescu: after all they're both male, right ?
mircea_popescu: in unrelated lulz, turkish-dutch relations at historic low over dutch deciding they have the power to forbid turkish foreign minister visit the turkish consulate in holland. because hey, if it works on random pick-up artist dork, why not on turkish foreign minister.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fundamental problem with "human rights" / "our democracy" ie humanism -- if mothers empower sons to escape fatherly punishment, the incentive on the 2nd sons is to be mothers rather than fathers.
asciilifeform: naggum was afaik the first to formally write down this observation, in his perl essays
ben_vulpes: the endless pile of "i would like to perform what i consider a basic operation of type X" "here have a shell script of awk and sed"
mircea_popescu: in other lolz internets! http://boards.4chan.org/lit/thread/9222977/thread-for-the-appreciation-of-mps-epic-new-novel
asciilifeform: Framedragger: you will notice that tools which 'invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless' proliferate, whereas ones that penalize shaved chimps for being the worthless biowaste that they are, tend to disappear and then have to be excavated from 1km of dirt, or evaporate entirely
ben_vulpes: let us not mention the ever-shifting api, the utter failure of to do MOTHERFUCKING GARBAGE COLLECTION, the miserable and useless state in which it leaves disks
Framedragger: ah i may have read it, did it mention DBs, too, as in "why the fuck would you put db in there"
ben_vulpes: dude *the* problem?
ben_vulpes: "the hft guy" wrote what i consider the canonical beating, mirrors my experience quite exactly
Framedragger: i have some good memories from using bsd jails some years ago. the core concept of isolation (fs, process, network, etc) is not bad. providing integrated interface not a bad thing, either. problem with docker is it doesn't do it in a consistent way, is too bloated, is ~proprietary +/-, and does the abstraction in a way that invites lazy people to be even more lazy and reckless.
Framedragger: currently stealing booze from that inventory. some good old shit in there i tell you
trinque: !~step1 on the road to recovery!
trinque: that's why they love docker; automated jars of shit
asciilifeform: forget about python, nobody wants to wait for two weeks for the result.
Framedragger: ah ah right, not bad then
asciilifeform: Framedragger: ben_vulpes already wrote a block & tx parser, his is the closest we have right now to a usable one
mircea_popescu: no, the 180k html files above
asciilifeform: 'On May 13th 2012 we downloaded the full public record of this system in one of its two major forms, which consisted of about 180,000 HTML files. After parsing and processing these files, we built a graph...'
asciilifeform: or hm, looks like they didn't
asciilifeform: nope, and not likely to any time soon, realized that shitoshi left us blocks where you have to PARSE ALL TX TO SPLIT INTO TX motherfucker
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in heathendom (not quite noose, but lulzy) https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-January/013473.html
asciilifeform: https://archive.org/stream/HarrisonBergeron/Harrison%20Bergeron_djvu.txt << the 20th c. american take on this.
phf: "you want meaning in your life? lol. here's 50 books of meaningless rituals. that you have to perform daily. the smarter you are the more rituals you get. knock yourself out."
phf: it does, hence the daily puja part
asciilifeform: the 1 fs i know of that MIGHT come close, is reiser
mircea_popescu: these great papier mache roofs that work fine as roofs until it finally rains, heh.
mircea_popescu: so "consumer fs is great if you don't use it". hey, check it out, exactly like the us army, or for that matter cia, apparently.
asciilifeform: konsoomer fs is liquishit. esp. when you entirely do NOT fit the profile of 'konsoomer', who sits and creates file and is happy is it takes less time than for the enter key to bounce back up
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, trilema serves the 350kb zuleika story in ~500ms. FILESYSTEM IS ABOUT AS SLOW!
Framedragger: yeah the sarcasm is probably not black enough tbh
diana_coman: I took that to be very-much-needed-sarcasm ; Framedragger knows best whether it was still innocent hope instead
mircea_popescu: no i meant the epic "justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works"
mircea_popescu: (denouement : eulora work is pretty much EXACTLY the above two things.)
Framedragger: i'm sure it's justified by the other amazing parts of the fs, and when we look at the other parts we'll see glorious code that works
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the mystery of the black box that manages to require 59kb to store 8 x 4byte directories, ie a whooping 99.99% wastage....
mircea_popescu: the logs are hungry for numeric values.
Framedragger: you're right, the growth *won't* be linear. but...
Framedragger: 59M for 1000tx. *before* symlinks are stored. (granted, they'll be small)
mircea_popescu: i've not seen any. would be more interesting to test for the hole manually by fuzzing on testnet
mircea_popescu: the case is -- this probably does not work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: could be interesting to test for double spends 'manually' (using specially written proggy that walks the blox)
mircea_popescu: but understand it's not the case "this - works, replacement might not"
Framedragger: *59M* for 1000 'transactions', *before* symlinks are even saved. just the folders (7-level-deep folders.)
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 03:53 Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625413 << i will also remind that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625312 which (i forgot this last night) means that in my view, there's no friggin' way eight-level-deep tree structure can hold transactions. every symlink is a file, and on top of that, with 8 levels, most about every transaction will create multiple additional folders
asciilifeform: it isn't clear why to preserve anything else, if this is amputated. it is the very example of 'grandfather's pistol' -- any mistake is a) not necessarily detectable with ANY kind of testing b) potential reactor melt
mircea_popescu: (note that at no point the preservation of satoshi's indexing scheme was contemplated)
asciilifeform: without gutting and replacing the entire logic of trb.
asciilifeform: which prevents the use of ANY sane (fixed-length keys to fixed-lenght values) db !!
mircea_popescu: the insanity of putting such a thing there, as opposed to you know, THE FUCKING WALLET
asciilifeform: and in turn this relies on storing the spend-tx-array (yes) INSIDE the indices db!! http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=makefiles#0713 <<
asciilifeform: sooo mircea_popescu , to revisit upstack , the entire doublespendpreventer mechanism in trb relies on this nonsense , http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0855 << is where it marks spent, and http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0847 is the doublespendtrap
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/choo-choo-motherfuckers-trump-train-begins-rolling-over-opposition/ << Qntra - Choo Choo Motherfuckers: Trump Train Begins Rolling Over Opposition
asciilifeform: 'let's make blocks variable length' 'let's make tx variable length' 'let's make tx INDICES variable and UNBOUNDED length' 'because mother dropped me as a baby'
asciilifeform: eeeevery single fucking time i sit down and assume that shitoshi did the obvious, simple, correct thing, and build a hypothetical on ~that~, i later open the binder and find that -- guess what
asciilifeform: (when new block comes in, to lengthen one end or the other of the snake tongue, the antecedent blocks get checked O(N), 'manually')
asciilifeform: if trb is in a state of snake tongue, ALL of the affected tx do not belong in the index table
asciilifeform: the Right Thing, as i see it, is : if a tx is in orphaned block, it does not belong in the index table
mircea_popescu: it's probably the cause for the whole spend thing, as a sort of unexamined insurance.
asciilifeform: there are two possible places for a duplicated tx: an orphaned (nonlongestchain) block, and a snake-tongue (if you will), one of two fork prongs of equal length, on the leading end.
asciilifeform: namely, that a particular tx can reside in more than one block, if the leading end frays (forks)
asciilifeform: now, there is one nuance ( that i'm not convinced shitoshi adequately dealt with, either , see http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=makefiles#0755 for instance )
asciilifeform: (there is no actual reason to cache where-spents! aside from how the tard probably thought 'my db is slow. let's make it store redundant liquishit, that'll help')
asciilifeform: so neither my 'bitcoinfs', nor mircea_popescu's let's-abuse-ext, will work, until this garbage is excised
asciilifeform: notice, they aren't simply block indices. these'd be fixed length, and might even get reasonable performance in ye olde bdb;
asciilifeform: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=makefiles#0709 << these are what shitoshi actually stored with the txid
asciilifeform: meanwhile, opened the binder of horrors, with trb src, and found some lulz, which is actually what i sat down at the terminal to share:
mircea_popescu: well so then. it never happened because you never published. dun dun dun.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 16:57 asciilifeform: btw i will also put down in the log, one very simple possible algorithm for a 'txidx-fs' :
asciilifeform: mno. the current dependency is 'bdb + AN fs'
mircea_popescu: currently the dependency is bdb + ext? ; if it becomes ext? it is less not same.
asciilifeform: but for the l0gz, lemme finish: replacing bdb, massive turd, with ext (or reiser, or any) equally or greater mass turd, (and now with linux dependence !!) is not a win.
asciilifeform: the other fundamental problem, and the reason why asciilifeform's interest in recycling old fs for trb is ~0, is that imho trb needs LESS dependency on open sores crud, rather than moar
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 13:51 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625313 << on the basis ~of actual measurements~ your position is indomitable. wtf, HALF A SECOND for ~8~ deep directory structure ?!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625333 << as i also described earlier, there are fundamental problems with all 'general purpose' fs, from bitcoin pov. mainly, they 'pessimize' for 'least common case', which happens to be our ~most~ common case : creation of file
mircea_popescu: (and if the foregoing didn't happen where you went to school... you didn't.)
Framedragger: problem is multiple homework/class/job-domains, and the context-switching :) but yeah
mircea_popescu: dun be the girl left behind!!1
mircea_popescu: you ever go to school ? what usually happens there's a chick there that's really good pre-puberty. then she starts bleeding, and she skips some classes / homeworks / attentionpaying. and then... she can never catch back up again. because interlocking.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger for the sake of argument : "here's link to my work so far published on my blog" is worth a guinea. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625386 is worth twopence.
mircea_popescu: no argument there.
phf: i think the deep value in an exercise like "replace db with a filesystem" is the reduction of moving parts. ext2 is a straightforward inode based tree, with a separate relocation phase, etc. journaling adds the whole overhead (for it's primarily cognitive) of secondary redundancy that you now have to factor into all your considerations
mircea_popescu: Framedragger dun worry about it. lordship coming up for discussion soon anyway, and ima propose you (an' some other fellows), so.
mircea_popescu: (pretending for a second the design is sane, which it isn't -- who the fuck counts by int a set of hashed items omfg)
mircea_popescu: can definitely also store by shifted blockheight, 0000/0000 etc. it will still be a thing as large as the other one
mircea_popescu: well if you're storing them by thyeir hash...
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: so in your proposed-to-be-tested scheme, there are two separate eight-deep trees? may i ask, why do blocks need their own tree - after all, it's just an int. do you expect block number to overflow an unsigned 32 bit int? because you *really* don't need 8-deep structure for dispersing 2**32 nodes (again: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph1.png / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph2.png )
mircea_popescu: there's an item in the specification of journaling that it must not work which i missed or something ?
mircea_popescu: phf i don't follow. so what if they are ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger no seriously, nothing wrong with it. now we have numbers. they're good to have.
phf: i believe alf even pointed out the obvious "journaling file systems are going to journal"
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 17:41 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the most pressing matter to my eyes right now is getting ext2/ext4 benchmarked for our specified purpose.
mircea_popescu: phf well he's considering what he's considering, seeing how he's doing the measuring. i was kinda biasing towards ext2 in the previous discussions (which i guess nobody reads or something ?) , but hey, can't impede man's independent manhood!
mircea_popescu: Framedragger in any case i don't expect to optimize BEFORE DESIGNING holy shit. talk about early optimizations. this is the measuring stage. you optimize nothing.
mircea_popescu: (and if this is untenable, THEN THE DESIGN GETS MODIFIED!!! no fucking "solutions" of shoving shit under carpet and letting mp discover it in 2017 whiole spending however many years eating food we didn't pay for and pretensions to "engineering" and "intellectual lifge" we don't deserve.)
mircea_popescu: if the total number of blocks your machine can produce is 2**4096, then your design will also store 2**4096 blocks.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the point is that we don't want to make any more provedly breaking systems.
Framedragger: (you'd need to have a *lot* of blocks to have average num of files per second-to-deepest dir be >= 1; i dont think one needs 8 levels, but i see the point in trying this)
mircea_popescu: 2. index to those blocks (say, eg, to find txn, or anything else) is stored in a SEPARATE dir structure, and at the bottom there's simlinks to the block files.
mircea_popescu: 1. actual blocks (1mb files) are stored in a directory structure, based on their hash say. this is 8 deep because hey, max filecount in a dir, we want to make a proper system.
Framedragger: also, as asciilifeform said, cache can really confuse the hell out of any metrics. e.g., disk cache. so i'd need to probably restart whole box to be sure (yes lol, but i think i should)
mircea_popescu: nah. here's the scheme again :
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: to be clear, the way this would work is, there'd still be symlinks at the bottom ends of the dir structure, pointing to blocks (which are stored in a single dir, say)?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger suppose you store the blocks whole. what is the seek time of one dozen 1mb files dispersed randomly in a 8 deep directory structure, defined as (time when all are in ram) - (time when call was made) ?
mircea_popescu: fuck you and that roadside wench of your mother.
mircea_popescu: NONE OF THEM DID ANYTHING USEFUL. AT ALL. BUNCH OF PRETENTIOUS POINTLESS USELESS IMBECILES NOT WORTH PISSING AWAY FROM!
Framedragger: yeah i especially liked the amazing speed of directory deletion
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for completeness, i should state that it may be "workable" (in the sense of slightly less horrible) to just keep a flat dir tree structure, one or two levels deep - if you don't ask fs to list files in dir and just want to access filenames you already know, it's ~okay-ish. but i think i agree that the whole fs idea needs to be dumped, in general
mircea_popescu: ie, the reason usgtard is all "oh, random is not really broken" when phuctor came out exactly reduces to "well, it's fucking broken, but you should see the filesystem!"
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 04:05 asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625313 << on the basis ~of actual measurements~ your position is indomitable. wtf, HALF A SECOND for ~8~ deep directory structure ?!
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in rotherham, http://68.media.tumblr.com/15036d15ef5dcfbf18d1bc22bc4dbfb9/tumblr_nxrc1dzSGS1tz8fr1o1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: o hey, one less shithead made in india around ?
a111: Logged on 2017-02-27 12:10 mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ?
mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/vuBRg (rehash of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1619007 ; proudly reported in the beobachter )
shinohai: I awake to the screeches of `PREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET` this morning with coffee. Hail to the Trumpreich.
mircea_popescu: i suspect alf exhibits the same issue.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there is an ancient observation (toqueville) that slavery is not unbearable to peoples in proportion to its intensity, but in proportion to the velocity of its reduction. he supports it by showing that the germans, more abject slaves in 1700 than any central asian people, found their situation tolerable ; whereas the french, significantly freer ~and becoming freer~ found the uninstantaneous speed of the change INTO
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624970 << where once you were a crackpot laboring in public obscurity, now you are a luminary of the republic. defections will continue apace until the old empires yield their last secret.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho the 'use existing fs' thing is a dead end.
Framedragger will check tomorrow if the insane size was from his shitty c. but actually, probably not - in ext3/ext4, a folder is an inode and an inode points to unique data block - minimum size of which is 4k. given an expansive recursive tree, you get what you get.
Framedragger: (btw the 'creation' is not bottlenecked by python or w/e; straight syscalls and simple c, and the random hex generator is a small footprint)
Framedragger: (~60k to store 'transaction' (excluding symlink itself)!! this is the price of deeper fs trees)
Framedragger: (would advise against deep folder structure assuming no concrete reason to prefer it. just-symlinks (+/-) seems better. but then not sure if to think much of fs anyway.)
Framedragger: oh lord. *creation* of seven-levels-deep directories (in the format of "6d56/a6f4/f1d5/67a3/505c/a7d0/9c72/6fff/e75e/a482/e36b/6b5b/7421/f9cf/e36a/", with last 8th level being symlink) takes a long time, and is also space-wasteful on ext4. to 'store' 1k transactions it takes ~0.41s and takes up 59M of space. this without actual symlinks (should be fast but should check later). *removal* is ~0.45s
mircea_popescu: myeah. but nemesis quite is in the mind.
phf: mircea_popescu: i noticed that here focusing on something is an incentive for others to also focus on it
trinque: and if the nemesis is there in the mind even in people who are quite functional yet, what happens to an old failed man?
mircea_popescu: they "just are".
mircea_popescu: none of the self-harming behaviours of mankind are examined, or deliberately chosen
asciilifeform: phf: didja miss where i noted that i wrote to them ? and signed fat cheques to some of'em ?
mircea_popescu: why phrase it as this rather than plainly "i will" ? to place disincentive on others doing it ? (hey, if i do it he won't) rather than incentive (he's doing it, let me do it too) ?
phf: asciilifeform: you've made a lot of unfounded assumptions. somehow everyone acts in bad faith unless they involve asciilifeform in their going ons?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-11 01:29 phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
mircea_popescu: consider the point! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1625177 << to this i could say, "the defensive play, of course, being to always link to the baseline when a field is discussed" to which his retort would be, of course, "yeah and he;ll just say a string with kindergarten in it".
asciilifeform: so none of the now-living folx can have what to be ashamed of, other than their whispering.
asciilifeform: fwiw all (afaik) of the people actually responsible for the managerial demise of smbx, are dead
asciilifeform: for fucks sake, the guy who invented refal, is still active (or his son..?)
mircea_popescu: which is why young women dont' like them.
mircea_popescu: old men are universally smelly in the same way.
asciilifeform: not the caliph stoking his furnace, no.
asciilifeform: this is the stuff dark ages are made of.
asciilifeform: trinque: the interesting bit, and yes i drilled deeply enough through the dried gangrene to get at the pus, is that there were and remain people who enjoy sitting on the embers of dead smbx more than they want to see the tech come back to life
mircea_popescu: nobody ever kicks anyone out of a dinner for being vegetarian, why the hell would anyone worry what people think of him for not having done x thing de rigueur.
mircea_popescu: hey, they're free people self determination etc rite ?
mircea_popescu: a large part of the problem being that in a "democracy" there's ~no incentive to behave in a less shitty manner.
mircea_popescu: alternatively, they a) didn't know (either item) ; b) didn't care ; c) didn't know they don't know ; d) didn't care they don't know and so folllowing.
asciilifeform: my pessimistic reading of this picture is that all of the folx who a) knew b) knew that asciilifeform wanted to know c) didn't tell -- were playing some peculiar power game in their heads, re 'access to the treasure trove', and how mean ol' asciilifeform wants to take this magic access and make it worth 0 ...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if my cock were one of 10 in existence, and the chicks all knew, and still avoided, i would have to seriously wonder wtf, maybe it points in wrong direction, or i have dog's head, or what.
asciilifeform: phf: it just blows my mind, if random d00d had not tipped me off, i could handily go ANOTHER 8 YEARS of ida
trinque: "such and so went to X and look here are pictures of them drinking bad booze in plastic cups"
mircea_popescu: suppose in the future that's how it works, dating consists of about 5bn notifications ~per capita~ of "hey, x is about to go out with $randomdude"
mircea_popescu: even now, you understand this alfie, EVEN NOW there's girls spreading for random dorks somewhere notwithstanding you're looking for a girl just like them. and they won't as much as whatsapp a notification to you!
phf: our sole objective will be making all the asciilifeform's assumptions true
mircea_popescu: the mare whisperers. do horse porn with it.
phf: i would very much like to start a clandestine operation called "the whisperers", but since it's not in the logs, someone else will have to do it
mircea_popescu: they will lose random single digit % of mailings inexplicably impredictably and irrecoverably.
asciilifeform: and anyway now that the bizarre kabuki re ' asciilifeform must not get the src !' is blown (is it blown ? or is there yet moar..?) maybe folx can publish, like sane people
mircea_popescu: there is also that i guess.
phf: i'd rather not loose a chip in transit, and since avocation, i don't care about time frames.
asciilifeform: srsly, i'm not one of them weird folx who whisper around. phf can have the iron, or gpggram where to send.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't think that's a wasted effort. i got in touch with zeptobars people again, and my current best option (since they said shipping to russia is maddness) is to travel moscows sometime in summer and hand deliver the chip. assuming that i have one, but i take it you're no longer interested since "snap4 source"
mircea_popescu: ie, they may have proven themselves to you, but they have not to me. as far as im concerned, stroutsup = dks = tim swanson = leah what's her ass = etcetera.
phf: i think there's a lot of general "couldn't care less"-ness going on all around. whisperers don't care about asciilifeform's plight
asciilifeform: if , for example, there are detailed design docs, or yet-nonpublic sources in there, phf is well justified in his continued skulduggery perhaps
phf: literally none of these people are directly in my wot, and my interactions with them are as frustrating as yours. but with patience you can extract useful things out of them. yours and mp's conclusion is that there's nothing of worth there, well then!
asciilifeform: but other folx --. 0 excuse.
mircea_popescu: person > 50yo, their brain likely isn't connected. to anything.
asciilifeform: rms, the talking mushroom, is not connected
mircea_popescu: they're idiots, what.
mircea_popescu: the "set of people who bought lispm" have nfi what lispm even is, on average.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-08 23:57 asciilifeform: this isn't the only 1 on the net, either, i found several, they bought lispms, one took hundreds of photos of himself 'hipstering' near it, then one final one where it (??!) burned down
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually there is, it includes illustrious folx like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-08#1623419
mircea_popescu: there's no "smbx community".
mircea_popescu: and yes, i understand how fucking petryfing and utterly enraging this is, "shit, wtf do these dorks sit on i need and they won't say"
asciilifeform: and nobody ever put 'snap4' into the search box, to find out wtf it was.
mircea_popescu: any one line is also passible of having been skipped / partially parsed and then silently dumped / etc.
mircea_popescu: unlikely, in light of this conversation, but yes, in light of the bias load.
asciilifeform: was it possible to misread this as 'he has the src' ?
a111: Logged on 2017-01-07 19:02 asciilifeform: all i got, for the most part, is what is in the wall-o-deadtree manuals, and what i gleaned from reversing 'snap4' binary in ida.
mircea_popescu: not that there's anything wrong with it, as a device. it's funny, even. but if man becomes his devices man misses out on things which, upon examination, man did not want to miss.
asciilifeform: phf: you're quite right that it isn't. thing is an astonishing pile of gnarl. but all of the necessary info, is ~inside~ it, just like 'bitcoin' lives inside the rubbish of trb
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there.is.a.cost.to.kindergartner.knows.device.
asciilifeform: why would i buy the machine and haul it up into my flat to saw it open, if 'already knew all'
phf: he's welcome, in his own words, to "go, implement". having read that code, i'm unconvinced that it's the "buddha's front gate" to a working lispm fpga
mircea_popescu: different apparently from merely the momentary rhetorical issue.
phf: it never occured that he wanted the link. when he said "i want snap4 source" i assumed he's talking about the original alpha source, or a complete working lispm emulator from scratch, a spherical horse of "working, readable lispm emulator", rather then what's actually there
mircea_popescu: instead, buy this : there is A COST to, eg, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623621
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's such rank nonsense, the fuck would anyone care.
mircea_popescu: ie never occured to you he never saw the link ?
asciilifeform: i'll buy this, because i'd rather buy this than 'phf is afraid of smbxmasons revenge'
phf: asciilifeform comes on very strong with the whole "i know" shtick, so i simply assumed that he knows what he wants to know.
asciilifeform: but same thing happening, every single fucking time, all the way up to phf staying mum re the src.