trinque: thorium in the walls is right up there with mircea_popescu's http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629337
asciilifeform: ( most americans live in cardboard dwellings. but they work, shop, idle about, in cinderblock walls. )
asciilifeform: the waste -- WILL be used. to build.
a111: Logged on 2015-05-01 03:02 asciilifeform: re: how, famously, semiconductor folks used to buy up medieval lead roofs from cathedrals, etc. to get low-rad material
mircea_popescu: "they don't make 'em like they used to" "well, they didn't use to have to use sr-90 / ca-40 mix!"
mircea_popescu: then - without adobe brick.
asciilifeform: notice the difference.
asciilifeform: what even counts as 'background'. fun exercise is to take ordinary geiger and try in a room with -- then without -- people.
mircea_popescu: nobody needs it. then again, background radiation does ~0, give or take a few cancers
asciilifeform: as in 'creatures evolved with a detectable background, they NEED it' or, in weaker form, 'it does 0 to them'
mircea_popescu: in some cancers, but even then dubious as all hell.
mircea_popescu: sure it did. most therapy is based on toxic agents.
asciilifeform: in either direction
mircea_popescu: in fact, there's quite nothing in chemistry like radiation. all poisons eventually kill everyone as you increase the dosage. even water. radiation however...
asciilifeform: she could've been valuable experimental subject for the radioprotectant pharama folx (never heard of'em ? subj went out of style, at least publicly, in 1970s afaik)
mircea_popescu: radiation is noxious not toxic. it culls the herd, doesn't end it.
asciilifeform: btw i recently heard that the 'last radium gurl' died in 2014. apparently there are folx who are unkillable even by it.
mircea_popescu: chucka sleeps warm in the taiga tonight.
mircea_popescu: look at all the "bitcoin ceos". i ask them this... and they think... i insulted them.
asciilifeform: the radium girl was exactly mircea_popescu's 'twerker': 'value extracted from marginal'
mircea_popescu: "where can i find a guy who is safe to work in a datacenter ?" "where 1% of the 1% gather", doublespoken as "for 100k a year".
asciilifeform: and did quite easy work. what, not 1 of them wondered 'why' ?
asciilifeform: i am still thinking about the 'radium girls' mircea_popescu . for some reason most 'left'-flavoured historians don't mention the fact that they were paid 2-3x the market rate for 'generic unskilled gurl'
mircea_popescu: this imo disposes of the dispute.
mircea_popescu: note that in any industry, it is LABOR that is the killer cost, not MATERIALS.
mircea_popescu: the reason is the failure of the workforce to keep up with the complexity of scientifico-technical world.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the reason was petro->chickenfeed conversion and economics of scale.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, they COULD NOT enjoy life as chicken handlers, because they'd do dumb shit. there's a reason situation with 1k droolers with chicken coop 20 chickens each turned into 1 chicken farm, 20k chickens, designed by 1, ran by 10, and 989 droolers on ipads waiting for the counter to count down.
asciilifeform: trinque: all of the iron is documented/driverized by nao ?
mircea_popescu: ople on the notion of hanging around waiting for timers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this one is a particular gem, conceptually, in the vein of that romanian "s-o-ntilnit prostu' cu hotu'" (ie, "the thief and the idiot met", shorthand for a certain sort of narrow horizon happiness). ie, "oh, this egg takes EIGHT hours to hatch! that one 24!! it's so much better!!11
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: imho it is a waste, these folx could quite enjoy life as ~actual~ chicken handlers
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 21:06 mircea_popescu: the fundamental mechanic being that you have animals which you gotta mate and then raise the eggs and you can get varying stuff out of the eggs and etc.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629753 << the world of 'neuro-typical' folx who have 'no theorems to prove', and nothing with which to legitimately to busy themselves, is ugly indeed. these people oughta be occupied with raising ~actual~ chickens etc.
ben_vulpes halfway looking forward to the next gentoo quest
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc trinque is the go-to man re g5.
ben_vulpes: upstack, trinque asciilifeform y'figure the g5's will only take a bsd? i've got a pile of links for 'linux on g5', but have yet to start sucking the spittoon down. would rather know if actually impossible up front.
phf: relatedly, aquaria is a neat action adventure for ipad. i think that's the only ipad game i actually enjoyed, though it's not particularly creative. swim around enjoy pretty art
ben_vulpes: 'iphonist' === 'click the ok and fix issue button'
asciilifeform: i thought ben_vulpes was the iphonist
ben_vulpes: what does it take to actually xcode these days? 100us/yr still?
ben_vulpes: you can self-sign trivially these days.
asciilifeform: and the signature would be good for a few wks at most.
asciilifeform: iirc (again when i last had a crapple dev acct) there was a limit, was it, 100 (?) boxes of 'sideload' per acct.
phf: it was always the case. you deploye whatever custom app through standard xcode/blah infrastructure. you can't do it as a casual of course
mircea_popescu: which incidentally reminds me of how poor kids "played" in the 90s too.
ben_vulpes: "here's a taste of life as curated by the competent, aren't you mad at the fake lifestyle you've been fed?"
mircea_popescu: it's not even very clear they wish to play. plenty are quite happy watching other dudes play and stream it live.
ben_vulpes: also these devices are not properly jailbroken
mircea_popescu: truth be told ~most of this crap is paid for by consumer-"investors" rather than by their kids spending $2 to "recharge"
asciilifeform: in every case it is the luser who breaks (by 'ooh i'ma UPDATE!111')
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i suppose that's what they tell "investor" suckers to get them to pay out.
ben_vulpes: "i'm going to put a fun thing on your phone. apple will break it within the month, because they're assholes."
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: well you don't go through the censors obvs
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: at one point (the last time asciilifeform gave half a shit, 2010 or so) it was considered ~impossible to get an emulator of whatever kind, past the censors
ben_vulpes: nevertheless, the response is "holy fuck, i haven't had this much fun playing games on my phone...ever!"
mircea_popescu: whereas the r2 games are "stamina" games. ie, basic dungeon costs 6 and "elite dungeon" (whatever) costs 12 and you have 100 or 200 and get 12 a minute.
ben_vulpes: apple borks the thing remotely within a month
ben_vulpes: i'm in the habit of installing gb/gba emulators on my friends ipnohes
mircea_popescu: see, the zinga/eve/fb games are all timers, basically. clicjk here to start a timer is the whole proposition.
shinohai: No surprise the cattle wish to play Farmville
mircea_popescu: the fundamental mechanic being that you have animals which you gotta mate and then raise the eggs and you can get varying stuff out of the eggs and etc.
trinque: then it was race to the bottom in terms of easiest yes, extruded product, to bolt to facebook
mircea_popescu: trinque yeah. there's one actually ingenious strand, that somewhat straddles the zynga-likes and the r2-likes : the eggers, you know those ?
ben_vulpes: the moo3 rewrite for touchscreen isn't a...bad...rewrite...
trinque: the "social media 'gaming'" thing though, was large part them. many of their games bolted directly to facebook, i.e. inside the thing
mircea_popescu: whereas the zynga stuff is more in the vein of eve and such things, clearly made by and for project managers.
mircea_popescu: and they do try to be all respectable, there's always a "arrow to the knee" reference and so. entirely chinese type of idiocy.
mircea_popescu: trinque not an expert other than by need ; but i suspect zynga is a different strand. these are the azn "fantasy" offerings, wanna-be d2 and h3, by the looks of them.
trinque: the malinvestment called zynga caused it, more or less
mircea_popescu: none of them have clickable blocks smaller than about a child's fist anyway.
mircea_popescu: anyway, if you're curious, visit the offerings of the mentioned. "league of angels" "battle for kingdom" "throne of throne" "legend of story" they've a few hundred of such field-appropriate thesaurus permutations.
asciilifeform: yeah but they were generally made for mouse.
trinque: well, those descended-from-hypercard games are basically tap all over the place, touch works fine
asciilifeform: i actually have ~0 idea what specifically supports the 'mainstream' commercial existence of the ipad. (as in the old ebay thread with mircea_popescu , it turns out that asciilifeform's uses for various items are often quite nonstandard )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no but see ... this crap is also .. .only partially about the game itself. they... got accounts!1
mircea_popescu: no longer looking to get laid, but still the same herbivore beasts.
mircea_popescu: it's like disco but for the 90s.
mircea_popescu: these are EXACTLY the same thing ; the arcade and the ipad exist because ameritards exist because oil was a thing and pittsburg was a thinbg before that etc.
mircea_popescu: the missing link is the attempted "ipad-powered restaurant" by that idiot from consumer computing, that we discussed here.
asciilifeform: arcades were a social activity, only partially about the game itself.
mircea_popescu: ^ rather typical exponent.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Acts of Gord : Love the Gord , Fear the Gord: <http://www.actsofgord.com/>; Acts of Gord - The Book of Annoyances: <http://www.actsofgord.com/Annoy/>; Acts of Gord - The Book of Apocalypse: <http://www.actsofgord.com/apocalypse/>
mircea_popescu: !~google "book of the gord"
mircea_popescu: yes. at some glorious point in the 90s it was ~same as a bar. you went with your friends to a dedicated bit of real estate.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: "the jerseys" "was located"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was 'casual came' at any point -- in its ~commercial~ ( vs tetrises, alexey pajitnov ) phase of life -- ever anything other than this ?
mircea_popescu: this is the "digital economy".
mircea_popescu: 3. the "payment platform" (all of these work on micropayments, obv) is a wrapper style thing (say, paymentwall, but there's at least 500 entirely identical items vying for a pie $lice with absolutely no distinction whatsoever) processes cards and also links to a pile of... i don'\t even know what these are. looks a lot like the silver age of porn really, early 2000s, where the various paysites kept trying to push each other.
mircea_popescu: 2. the "social media platform" (say, g2arcade, there's a bunch but identical entirely) make a whitelabel with the company, pushes the game on "its" users (the catch being that they try to get the user to use their "accounts" rather than the company's -- and there's a lot of utterly corporate-like entrenchment around this topic.)
mircea_popescu: there's major reuse, the "voices" of characters in "different" games often end up the same digital asset etc.
mircea_popescu: 1. the company (say r2games, there's a few but identical entirely) hires out a bunch of cubical drones, has them churn out a "game" to 3-ring binder spec. you prolly know the shit, stamina-constellations-etc.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this :
mircea_popescu: never before in the history of this tech has a trilema existed
mircea_popescu: tbh, the intensive referential way we use irc is entirely... original
asciilifeform thinks the default behaviour of 'tab complete' in this irctron is quite ridiculous
mircea_popescu: also the dork selling "Radium wateR"
asciilifeform: and this reminded me, did mircea_popescu ever write a piece re the 'radium girls' ? the ones that licked the brushes and rotted. they are brought up as darlings of the 'unions' era, 'wurker's rights', etc. but in actuality they not only licked the brushes but painted own lips, nails, jewelry, etc.
mircea_popescu tries for a few minutes in vain to turn the strange habit of porn actors of spitting into gaping assholes into some kind of a spittoon joke, gives up
mircea_popescu: then i noticed it didnt say stripper.
mircea_popescu: not the same thing if white man does it.
mircea_popescu: either that or get shot.
trinque: I have a feeling you'd tolerate the people a bit moar than DC
asciilifeform: ( it is, for instance, where the pet was born. )
mircea_popescu: well... move to texas. you can get crane garage there
trinque: they cron-inate and whatnot
trinque: the mini g4
asciilifeform: but not only do i actually pay per kWatt/hr here (in summer time : TWICE: again to remove the waste heat!) and have quite limited space, but there are only so many p3 you can hang off ups.
asciilifeform: the g4 however is approx as useful as old p3.
asciilifeform: the g5.
asciilifeform: the very same alphas, for instance.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:49 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it occurs to me, btw, that the scam whereby people who were holding jobs shares were converted to cook shares is one of the cruelest things in nature.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629345 << eventually happens to everything. as per, even, the 'regression to mean' thread.
trinque: my modem's 300 but try getting a connection like that in the tx burbs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: even there, 0 reason for lan to be anything but GB
mircea_popescu: ah there is that.
trinque: but 10 of them in a stack beats "containers"
asciilifeform: trinque: there was a g5 'mini' ?!
asciilifeform: and unlike, e.g., most sun boxes, they have normal 'earthling' pci, and reasonably obtainable sdram.
mircea_popescu: nice alternative to the linux-on-amd freezeout
trinque: they run openbsd great
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:45 ben_vulpes: no, specifically the macintosh ppc g5's
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629328 << these are surprisingly great 'cpu for the dollar', because ~severely~ underpriced , even for a junk market item : they're ~entirely worthless to mactards who would 'use as printed on the box', because last 7 or so crapple os versions will refuse to run on it. but potentially very valuable for, e.g., bsd user.
mircea_popescu: yeah, gate to texas, gate to cali, that sorta thing. hook the white girl's knees spread nice and wide, what.
mircea_popescu: anyway. typically pirate war against the crown wants you know, the fortress of martinique. and gibraltar.
trinque: they get flooded with venezuelans or w/e
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can swear allegiance to the flag of the united nationx of mexico just as well. can even save the original two words of the whole signage
asciilifeform: (what'd make the pirates turn into a navy ? and whattodo after victory, and there are no moar galleons to take gold off?)
mircea_popescu: im sure they'll send the late night circuit comedians. what could anyone do to that.
BingoBoingo thinks v3, but unsure. Would be v4 if Zimmermann telegram, but if Zimmermann telegram would have moved Mexico to act, American might instead be looking towards The Great Already
mircea_popescu: trinque the mexican "deep state" has been living in this situation where beheaded chief of police weekly.
trinque: not much airpower there, but probably amply more "asymmetric warfare" inclination
mircea_popescu: other part of the problem is that it's too large a corp. their kernel ppl and their directx people were pretty much as related as samsung and apple.
trinque: yeah so you hate it even more then
mircea_popescu: course opengl also owned it the next decade, and did even less with it.
trinque: gotta be able to admit one's political bias plainly, or it warps like so. "microshit is evil therefore I will ignore their output" is not the same as "factually they never once built a thing"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: introducing the nonsensical 'original throughout' device ( nobody else, incl asciilifeform , had ) does not help mircea_popescu's argument
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu wants to inhabit a mental universe where 'there is no such thing as original technology' and xerox parc circa 1970s is exactly same thing as microshit today -- i can't possibly stop him.
mircea_popescu: i suppose we can add 3, "once 1 and 2 are on the table, take refuge in contradictory schemes". there is no such thing as original technology. for something to be a technology it must be unoriginal. original shit is called literature.
asciilifeform: i stand by the statement: nothing which is original in microshitistan, is any good; and any which is good in microshitistan, is not the least bit original.
mircea_popescu: there's more, but a coupla suffice.
mircea_popescu: 1. you asked for an item by stated criteria, were provided the item, pretended the item fails a criterion that is actually the opposite of your stated criteria ; 2. when confronted with your ridiculous misbehaviour, you attempted to replace the item with a different item and show you can defeat the different item.
mircea_popescu: not a matter of "oh, mp has allergies" ; not a matter of "check me out, i invented rhetorics and also i'm so smooth ima strawman all over! fat16!11" ; not a matter of anything else, there's no way out of it.
mircea_popescu: or what, who else had the item.
mircea_popescu: who cares where it came from ? you did lift from them eh.
mircea_popescu: a house technially is a city block. though they're generally called lots because not usually right in city. but anyway.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 17:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform peons don't enter into it. the sort of captives in the consolidated shit of their own head who ask for a "solid, useful knowhow item" and then IMMEDIATELY retort "it isn't innovative" when such is presented, however... those doods have problems.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629499 << as i understand 'innovative' is a barf trigger word for mircea_popescu , but i don't know of a more appropriate word. if q is re 'what useful things did you lift from microshit', and someone suggests 'fat16', i can only answer 'it was not innovation, did not originate from the loins of microshit.'
mircea_popescu: which cycles us right back to the earlier mmmkay.
asciilifeform: the flats folx have the other problem: typically the landlord is a corp and operates 'by 3ring binder'
mircea_popescu: i think the only place where you can properly speaking rent a house is ~europe
asciilifeform: understand, i shop in a market where the availability is ~0.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sometimes they showed up almost immediately ! as in, next day i call and 'oops sorry it was already snapped'
mircea_popescu: i dunno there exista a place inthis world with 90% occupation. maybe beijing.
asciilifeform: they dun want to do 'work'. 'this hovel was good enough for the others, it oughta be good enough for you, if you won't take it there are 25 others who will'
mircea_popescu: well yeah, it's all in there in de "damage property", a very general understanding of "shit that makes my economic position worse"
asciilifeform: but also, as i learned experimentally, one that doesn't create 'work' for the owner. for instance, i went to a great many folx who were letting out houses, and they wouldn't hear of 'install dishwasher', even when offered 100% of the (not especially frightening) cost of this mod.
trinque: human shit on the walls in more than a few cases
mircea_popescu: depends. irl good tenant is one who doesn't damage the property more than what he pays in rent.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform peons don't enter into it. the sort of captives in the consolidated shit of their own head who ask for a "solid, useful knowhow item" and then IMMEDIATELY retort "it isn't innovative" when such is presented, however... those doods have problems.
asciilifeform: it's more or less the definition of peonage.
asciilifeform: i wasn't at their negotiation table, have nfi how it went.
mircea_popescu: so then, negotiate a deal, what.
asciilifeform: in the case in question, it was a human one
mircea_popescu: o, wait, you have "corporation" landlords over there donntcha.
asciilifeform: landlord ate none of the cost, this is sop for peon housing
mircea_popescu: i dun see the problem, i do this with some regularity. get the landlord to eat > then your actual residual post amortisation you're golden.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 03:34 ben_vulpes: asks the guy who developed a recreational habit of fixing other people's toilets in the most retarded corner of south america...
asciilifeform: build in microshit vs, even. (this includes usg's, as was well laid out for exhibit in the latest dump)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: 99+% of the malware samples i have ever laid hands on, were complete snoar
mircea_popescu: you said the fucking opposite.
asciilifeform: the original dos was not created by microshit.
mircea_popescu: and the original dos.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: directx is simply a fruit of collusion with the gpu vendors, i see nothing innovative about it
asciilifeform: Framedragger: better q imho would be - whether there is anything to be learned from these.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: iirc there are reverse-engineered implementations, yes, but whether they're any good is another q
asciilifeform: and so my tape decks, once princely , gather dust.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629271 << i actually like tapes, and wish that they were readily available today in useful sizes
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 01:02 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: oof, max fat32 size is 4gb, with a maximum of (to the tune of) hundreds of millions of files (less than 1bn); there's also exFAT of course, etc., but eugh
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 01:03 mircea_popescu: i don't recall being as pissed off with fat32 at any point throughout the 90s as i've regularly been hence.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629270 << the magical powerz of low expectations!111
mircea_popescu: you might well be right. i still wanna see them. there is no possibility to waste time by looking around.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629256 << even reiser is almost certainly waste of time, general-purpose fs is very sharply the opposite of what we want, they are all optimized for mutability (can delete/rename/resize/etc) and fast reads at the expense of slow entity creation, as well as carrying out silent rebalances/defrags/etc.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 00:42 mod6: So I'll be getting into the thick of that very soon. Lot to do to get trb-i going.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629232 << trbi, with the fixed-length-everythings, needs ~no fancy indexer at all. it's for a hypothetical sane-trb.
BingoBoingo: Which lulz, there are many with said rat
shinohai remembers the lukejr lulz
mircea_popescu: hey, it works for the "domain name real estate" "investors" !!
phf: jeez, i like how they are not even trying. a bootstrap template one pager and a link to "bitcointalk thread"
asciilifeform: in other lulz, from the dept. of 'let's make a sham version of EVERYTHING discussed in #trilema', http://btcpowupdate.org
jhvh1: 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
trinque: We admitted we were powerless to give a shit about the IRS
BingoBoingo: From the great justice files http://www.deseretnews.com/article/787926/Doctors-alcoholic-defense-frustrates-the-IRS.html
trinque: if so, what's with the demure intro
trinque: I'll be impressed when the "I'm just a dude" trope goes away.
ben_vulpes: and with this bit of how the other half lives, i bid ye adieu: http://68.media.tumblr.com/2b2348d8f69c7d1dd8d1ba6b96358cf4/tumblr_omzwq2XTZI1vg6t4ko1_1280.jpg
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-16#1628104 << tripped over the "won't connect to localhost" horseshit iirc, which you've fixed
mircea_popescu: there's a lot of dumb shit young men do because their parents are woodland creatures / barn animals, buyt this is by far the most common, "building a career" on government crap.
ben_vulpes has a tool in place, the annual maintenance and extension budget for which was dwarfed by the amount of money spent closing the sale on its replacement. which is going on lord only knows how late, nth rewrite, over budget, no surprises in sight
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's the problem with "sweet" setups of the religious persuasion : no real barrier to entry, it's all blowing smoke. so you sooner or later find yourself eyeball deep in the shitswamp and wonder how the "sweet" thing ended up fulla flies.
ben_vulpes: except for how it's a miserable shitshow of liars and frauds and also you have to sell shit they won't actually benefit from to bureaucrats
mircea_popescu: except the essay is not for schoolboy consumption but for bureauctat consumption. he gives it to his boss / superviser / inquiry committee and walks
mircea_popescu: o wait, lockheed martin thing doesn't actually fly either
mircea_popescu: that's the game in "owning" public infrastructure : you pretend to be the owner, offer the bureaucrats all the convenient excuses you can while sucking all the tax money possible. it's like lockheed martin without the wings
trinque: the only "own a subway" is that
mircea_popescu: moreover fuck the "it's going to take". you want me to own an item i can't price to market ? hurr.
ben_vulpes: well yeah, nobody wants to deal with schmucks who're going to gripe about the shitbuck it's going to take to fix their sole mode of transportation
mircea_popescu: let them provide it.
mircea_popescu: buy a subway holy shit. why the fuck would you buy an item the dorks expect to be provided "as a publicgood". fuck them.
ben_vulpes: "would you rather buy a car repair shop or a subway?"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yeah, and guess why ? because outside of the owner, the paper's not worth jack.
mircea_popescu: and especially these days, when they don't even own the capital goods in any sense whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: nobody gives a shit about that, nor can a model based on such examples be THE MODEL.
mircea_popescu: this works ok if the corporation does stuff buffett understands, like fishing, or manufacturing chewing gum
mircea_popescu: the delusion of a corporation has at its core the notion that "what to do" is a well explored space, and that "anyone" could and moreover in that position would be doing it.
mircea_popescu: so much so that it seems to me the whole model is fundamentally flawed. what "corporation" ? bs. wot-style, one man.
ben_vulpes: kill the old boss and take his chair
mircea_popescu: i don't think there's a case in history where the shareholders got their money's worth.
trinque: mk my whole point here is that the obvious successor failed
ben_vulpes: dipshits who got onto the car project will say that about /him/
trinque: I've heard Ive talking (with misty eye almost) about how the relationship with Jobs was "hard"
ben_vulpes: stood by, happy to not be in the hotseat