asciilifeform: or for that matter the init. release.
asciilifeform: what else, gotta ask, was 'surreptitiously snuck into the Monero codebase' .
asciilifeform: '2017-02-21: The patch is surreptitiously snuck into the Monero codebase in pull request #1744. It is kept secret to prevent it being used to attack other CryptoNote coins.'
asciilifeform: they release closed bins ?!
ben_vulpes: > secretly patched by the monero team
asciilifeform: 'The so-called "key image" as used in CryptoNote coins utilising elliptic curve ed25519 can be modified in a special way, allowing double-spends. ' << lel
BingoBoingo: Gotta put future generations in their place and discourage grave robbing somehow
ben_vulpes: in other totally-not-medium-rebrandeds: https://backchannel.com/how-one-little-cable-company-exposed-telecoms-achilles-heel-480e49b648bf
asciilifeform not mega-expert on treasure-buryin', but generally folx do it in places where they can later get to it unnoticed
asciilifeform: rather, house did
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i haven't got 1 surface that wouldn't auger in under that thing, and that includes the mud liquishit that is the 'yard' << Maybe you want have vault so it augers and sinks? Self burying treasure chest!
asciilifeform: i already have one of these.
ben_vulpes: me neither, but i still happily tear up lawns, emplace shitboard sheds
asciilifeform: well i dun own properties, here or there, so it doesn't make much diff to me
ben_vulpes: makes the pacific northwest sound like a not entirely miserable shithole, the place where you live
asciilifeform: ( for not getting the right permits, or somesuch fuckwittery )
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: i haven't got 1 surface that wouldn't auger in under that thing, and that includes the mud liquishit that is the 'yard'
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: house that can actually hold the safe, costs moar, however.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> they also had a 2tonne safe, for some reason , in the back, and willing to let it go for cheap. but asciilifeform has neither flatbed nor crane nor concrete plinth. << Such things can be rented, ~300 - 700 for combination for whole day
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: far from free, but the new party is a good one.
ben_vulpes: well he's liquidating them for a reason, neh?
ben_vulpes: eh, i'll settle for jewing my little brother down over the nsa backdoors in his gaming rigs
asciilifeform: congrats, then, ben_vulpes , on being a free man
ben_vulpes: "neither a borrower nor a lender be"
ben_vulpes: cannot speak for internals of others
ben_vulpes: shit thee not
ben_vulpes: great place for cigars and cognac after the sun sets
mircea_popescu: all them hooks.
mircea_popescu: lol for new year i dun recall which, took girls in chains to floor -3, poured champagne / fucked them among the scary concrete. was a blast.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, the usg is desperately trying to achieve said refrigeration through trying to shoot people who trade it.
mircea_popescu: they usually buy used.
mircea_popescu: a really ? then what the fuck do you hang on to used furniture for. no party rental outfits where you live ?
mircea_popescu: how much did you end up in the hole with that thing ?
ben_vulpes: "i'll take the vault for $pittance, but only if you discount $butthole by $similar_pittance"
ben_vulpes: thrown in for song with hole where the few remaining used desks stand
asciilifeform: whatchagot in there, ben_vulpes , column of tanks ?
ben_vulpes: haw i've been renting the train station's vault for months now
asciilifeform: but so that they could have a shot at 'refrigerating' its exchange rate a la usd/gold
asciilifeform: not because there's much to be harvested in this way,
asciilifeform: i imagine they'll be in the 'business' of offering to 'safely safekeep' chumps' bitcoin, soon.
asciilifeform: 'we will now offer this costly service that does absolutely nothing but homeopathic shell of former self. then proceed to be very surprised when nobody buys.'
asciilifeform: ( they offer ZERO assurance of non-disappearance of contents . and so -- very few takers. )
a111: Logged on 2014-08-30 16:11 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: re: 'coinbase insurance' post - little story. recently i had occasion to rent a box at a bank (storage of various paperwork for firm.) the contract was a hilarious read. bank only insures a box for up to 25k usd. and specifically excludes damage from robbery, fire, water... virtually anything.
asciilifeform: possibly for the reasons described in old thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-30#816372
asciilifeform: 'bay area' is where the most egregiously insufferable twits are to be found -- sv, 'lesswrong', etc. types
asciilifeform: other one
mircea_popescu: somehow the soviet and soviet likes didn't annoy me nearly as much.
asciilifeform: plus there's method of working 'with' them, just as there are tools for cutting scrap apart.
asciilifeform: there's a bank not far from where asciilifeform lives, that died in 1990s. but left ALL of the furniture, incl. the ~stately~ mega-vault
asciilifeform: they also had a 2tonne safe, for some reason , in the back, and willing to let it go for cheap. but asciilifeform has neither flatbed nor crane nor concrete plinth.
asciilifeform bought most of the contents of a ratshack for ~2hundy us
mod6: speaking of wot ratings. i gotta go through and update mine one of these days.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: show experiment that suggests the 'incomplete maxwell' in the sense contemplated
mircea_popescu: i can't even be arsed to take the anglo formalism seriously. A-> field, really ? pshaw.
gabriel_laddel_p: mircea_popescu: ask a grad student (preferably one who works on antenna theory) what the A-> field _is_ and why D->/B->/E-> etc are _not_ sometime. The sheer weight of handwaving will adequately communicate why this is interesting.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel_p i'm only vaguely familar with the matter, but my understanding was that photons are un-existed.
gabriel_laddel_p: Interestingly, Ilan Kroo reached for the same formulation (A->) & same example (spherically symmetrical mass distribution) as CAM, but ~20 years earlier, and prior to gravity probe B, which confirmed (for some value of that word) the geodetic effect (frame dragging).
gabriel_laddel_p: Irrespective of its other features, the pedagogical elimination of Bohr's definition of the classical correspondence limit is useful (from CE).
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 18:27 asciilifeform: it dun have enough meat on its bones, at least as presented in the b00k,
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658436 < Agreed. Which is why I pasted the video (which yes, I will strip of its contents and put in blog), because it occurred after CE, and has 1 new, useful calculation.
gabriel_laddel_p: my understanding is that the original quaternion formulation from maxwell is also lorentz invariant, but have not checked.
gabriel_laddel_p: We know that A-> exists, and is better than heaviside's formulation of maxwell's equations because it can describe the AB experiment, and because it does not have a preferred frame of reference / is lorentz invariant.
gabriel_laddel_p: he same mathematical machinery (vector potential) to gravity and has a slightly different prediction than GR regarding the gravity wave (supposedly) detected at LIGO.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 18:26 mircea_popescu: came up with a way to explain away laser interferometry not showing these "grav waves" by declaring photons kulaks / enemy of the solid state or such.
gabriel_laddel_p: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658434 < Do you have a source for this? And banning photons? What? Where is this discussed? In any case, there are two threads here 1) collective electrodynamics, which wants to be a reformulation of EM using A->, as it takes into account, as you say, the "collective action" of electrons. & 2) G4V, which applies t
mircea_popescu: eh, brunette is the new blonde has been a meme for a long time now.
asciilifeform: but guess what 'inferior is the new superior' because some roman d00dz didn't feed nearly enough uppity shits to lions etc
mircea_popescu: only took them what, 3-4 decades ? not so bad.
mircea_popescu: it's kinda funny to me that in the end the fem-gay revolution came to the same conclusion it started by denying : "we are inferiorz to straight men"
Framedragger: i poelaw'd on that link. " Sadly, there is a direct correlation between high IQ and “earning” a PhD in a STEM discipline, which is all too reflective of how white cishet men have designed disciplinary concepts to reinforce their own power structures." (some comment. troll? dunno)
BingoBoingo: "Mr fancypants doctor think you are going to fix up the neighborhood? How about broken bottles in your yard and PLS MOAR DRUGZ, kthnx"
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BIP148 nodes will never let it reorg out the BIP148 chain << this is newz. how does node 'never let' ? i'd like to know << YOu don't know how ghettos work!
asciilifeform: BIP148 nodes will never let it reorg out the BIP148 chain << this is newz. how does node 'never let' ? i'd like to know
BingoBoingo: "Mathematical Society" http://blogs.ams.org/inclusionexclusion/2017/05/11/get-out-the-way/
asciilifeform: they all merged into one, in asciilifeform's head. but that comes from reading about'em years later.
mircea_popescu: i kinda miss the early ones. remember the punk, what's his name, who thought he was a "crypto innovator" ? or that tv schmuck. or or or
asciilifeform: Framedragger: historic record is that 100% of the folx who bragged about 'fear my seekrit mega-profitable co !' turned out to be shits.
mircea_popescu: a, so what's the problem.
mircea_popescu: anyway, what's in the pic ? nice tits ?
asciilifeform: motherland, to
asciilifeform: secrecy + suddenwealth == sold-motherland to ~every intel service on planet
Framedragger: mno, secrecy implies kindergarten perhaps, tho. anyway, impossible to argue due to the former
BingoBoingo: legacy chain gets, BIP148 nodes will never let it reorg out the BIP148 chain.)"
BingoBoingo: In other Desperations: https://archive.is/F2SIO "If the chain splits, then when / if / every time the BIP148 chain gets longer*, it will replace the legacy chain. Transactions that had confirmed on the legacy chain will become unconfirmed (unless they are also confirmed on the BIP148 chain). Bitcoins mined by legacy miners will cease to exist, as they lose their blocks. (This cannot occur in the inverse direction: no matter how long the
asciilifeform: d00d's been doing the reptilia thing
mircea_popescu: next they're going to invent a sheath fully utilizing steel that aims at solving the difficulties faced by swords embedded in idiots guts everywhere.
asciilifeform: and yes i recall that mircea_popescu threw out the domain. dun matter much, even if you buy 1,001 domains ( enriching usg each time, each year ) there is always 1,001st.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-31 02:26 asciilifeform: 'A decentralized network system fully-utilizing Blockchain in every aspect, aims at solving current difficulties faced by key cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin and Ethereum, preventing from frauds and money-laundering, ID management and being a mediator with taxing/administrative system in various countries.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 21:11 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658673 << who's the cardano people ?!
mircea_popescu: before alf cuts more notches in the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658505 stick : i literally did not bother paying for the domain, for no other reason than because i literally give this much of a shit about domains, and the whole rest of the ustardian crap built atop it.
mircea_popescu: ah, look at that, highschool virgin club collecting discarded, used condoms, making themselves bower to impress the highschool sluts. sounds like MAGA.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 20:26 asciilifeform: lol! it's the cardano people !
BingoBoingo: Not yet, waiting for anchoring hardware to arrive. Attaching a tin shed to the ground.
asciilifeform: i bet this is the 'seekrit startup' that made kakobrekla rich
asciilifeform: lol! it's the cardano people !
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 16:34 asciilifeform: briefly upstack : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658014 << i tracked down the heathen pit in question, for entomological purposes. the only possibly lulzy bit is that it turns out to be thestringpuller 's new home.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-18#1658191 << It's been a while since he's lit up my inbox. Went over the years from promising to sell cookies he wouldn't bake to writing a couple good qntra's under cazalla regime. Then sort just degraded to repeatedly asking questions over plaintext about gardening for plants I don't grow. "tomatoes" but I suspect he was using it as a code word for a plant incompatible with quality sobriety. His late con
mircea_popescu: now calculate the magnetic field that turns a million years into a second.
mircea_popescu: yes. they don't tend to have 100k spare change in couch cushions.
asciilifeform: matter of taste, but there are folx who'd maybe rather die on beryllium sphere than from vodka
mircea_popescu: it went so fucking well for curie and that idiot with the beryl sphere.
mircea_popescu: and also, surprisingly energetic. imagine what fun it'll be once you discover that a kilogram is not like the microgram in that it summons fucking chtulhu.
asciilifeform: probably oughta mention that -- iirc -- induced decay can be moar ( or less ) energetic than the expected one
asciilifeform: it's the 'softest'.
mircea_popescu: add a 2% conversion efficiency on top, and it suddenly looks terribru. diesel engines work in the high 40%.
asciilifeform: well for starters, 1.25e9 is the HALF life
mircea_popescu: dja know what the mol of gasoline produces through oxidation ?
mircea_popescu: do the math :
asciilifeform: 1.25 rather
asciilifeform: k-40, most abundant (in nature, 1 of the very few) B emitters, decays with 1.33mEv emission, so ~2.13e-13 j..
mircea_popescu: anyway, as far as the conspiracies go : politically speaking, if the ev were even close, even vaguely the "art" grads in eg germany would be pushing for lifting the cost on hot reactors matter disposal so as to balance it outright.
asciilifeform: ( possibly by growing the material in a crystal, say, such that the emitted particles trigger yet others etc a la ye olde neutron-powered fission reaction )
asciilifeform: i suspect that the finesse, if it ever turns up, would be to somehow 'chain react' the induced beta emission.
mircea_popescu: (beta sources are terrible, i will remind the public, because metal emits gamma on contact.)
mircea_popescu: anyway, esp because of the incredible expense that is magnetic bottle, it's not even CLOSE, ev wise.
asciilifeform: all i got is the open lit.
asciilifeform: but possibly more problem on my end than other.
mircea_popescu: beta radiation is not just an electron about in the sense a tsunami is not just water.
mircea_popescu: afaik that's the missing piece.
mircea_popescu: but the thing remains, so you do induced beta decay. this has some matter costs, in the radioactive material, and some energy cost, in the confinement, excitatron, etc. in exchange for these, you get beta particles. now, what do you do with them ? warm some water, turn turbine ? -ev. put against photovoltaics ? -ev. illuminate raw metal joints ? -ev. what ?
asciilifeform: post it for the l0gz ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did these folx who tried, leave some written record ?
asciilifeform: the 1 problem i can immediately spot is 'if you can't make it with STOCK equipment, you need $maxint'
mircea_popescu: i know of a coupla who tried. the problem was the measurements not coming out, rather than conspiraci.
asciilifeform: but unfortunately afaik they're all dead.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, seems even at mit, physics lab should be able to produce the micrograms of I or w/e is contemplarted here.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-30 14:55 asciilifeform: 'motivation from fear is a firecracker, from interest - a nuke' as the americans used to say
asciilifeform: or whether it is meaningful to try.
asciilifeform: i have nfi how to convert between the 2.
asciilifeform: there's a million folx with 100k. but afaik 0 who a) give a shit b) work unmolested ( and this includes molestation that makes your table legs cost 100k each, as in entirety of 'civilized' world's 'legitimiate' laboratories )
mircea_popescu is having the antipasta of all time. grana padano, anchovies, winter salami, olives... ahhh.
mircea_popescu: there's many tons of waste in the us they don't klnow what to do with. and as recent qntra points out, it's starting to leak.
mircea_popescu: if the 100k you're talking about is factual, ie, what a moderately competent engineer makes a year, it seems altogether strange they're not doing it.
asciilifeform: idea was that this hypothetical man is the point of a spear, a spear that was broken.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho it is not a simple as 'there's a man who could, but he won't , because pissants tangled in his shoelaces.'
asciilifeform: was it mircea_popescu who wrote 'best thing you can do for physics is to find a respectable elderly physicist on the road, and shoot a hole in his head' ?
mircea_popescu: not entirely clear to me what you're saying here. so the idea is, that because random upstart / usurper of minor crown enobled anyone who could read/write and hadn't rean off a century ago, it therefore follows that a man who could power a whole city out of hot reactor waste today does not do so because mit graduates can't power a lightbulb with the battery in hand. something like that ?
asciilifeform: (edison, bell, westinghouse, coupla others)
asciilifeform: edison's megabux had the same 'contagious disease' influence as the success of gates/microshit in 1980s did on software industry
asciilifeform: brothers wright, incidentally, did ~same thing in ~their~ field, and more or less paralyzed it entirely for years
asciilifeform: then marconi joined in the newly-developed 'edison' tradition of patent trollage, by laying claim to EVERY subsequent improvement to radio, by others who came later..
asciilifeform: iirc the butthurt was deep ( and described in the infamous u.s. supreme court trial on subj. ) marconi got the famous '7777' patent , and pr machine cemented his reputation as 'first practical radio!' (though it was largely based on earlier work, by, e.g., lodge, tesla, others)
asciilifeform: d00d was made senator ! and then again lifted up by mussolini.
asciilifeform: d00d did in fact carry out experiments. but proved also brilliant at taking credit for the work of others.
asciilifeform: marconi was interesting case -- i read his patents, and in a few the circuit could not work as drawn, and in fact could not have been drawn by a d00d who understood half of what he was allegedly doing ( vs cribbing )
mircea_popescu: ok. what else, the microwave ? velcro ? what shall we take ? gsm comms ?
mircea_popescu: so take something random, say the touchscreen. who invented, who got assigned ?
asciilifeform: the process is not mega-mystery.
asciilifeform: bitcoin drives the lizards up a wall because it was the first immovable object that resisted the 'irresistible force'
asciilifeform: there is no money, in modern usg reich, in SOLVING a problem
mircea_popescu: this whole theory is a little shaky.
asciilifeform: and thousands of asian phd students get dissertation from proposing a new thermal/field/whatever sensor for it, etc
asciilifeform: the perfect academitron is the hot-fusion reactor -- eternal 'but if only we make it 10% bigger!' chumpatron
mircea_popescu: eh, didn't stop them before.
asciilifeform: the mechanics were described, quite exactly, in 1950s . and it follows, theoretically, that you could power a city of, e.g., strontium-90 scraped off chernobyl.
asciilifeform: whereas ACTUALLY promising, and wholly noncrackpotterious direction of particle physics -- induced beta decay -- is funded to the princely sum of..
mircea_popescu: the latter part is hard to arghue with.
asciilifeform: and the work has exactly same methodology, and same output.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't know the result until AFTER. you gotta start building it BEFORE.
mircea_popescu: the difference between ligo and cern is that the later actually does something ; the former...
asciilifeform: is the difference .
mircea_popescu: in this sense and very generally, large scale investigations of the nature of "let's see what happens to laser interference" are not substantially different from historical items such as foucault's pendulum, or the torgue balance of 1700
asciilifeform: but cataloguing, naming, imaginary ( and when unified, they will look like a quite laughable jorge borges zoo roster ) particules, is not a solution to any of it
asciilifeform: the indian-coder, 'stack overflow' treatment of knowledge .
a111: Logged on 2017-05-17 13:43 phf: i guess that's aligned with the "we moved from SICP to python, because programming is no longer about writing code, but discovering libraries" that's periodically discussed in logs
asciilifeform: the ligo treatment -- even if taken at face value, rather than grantolade-eating cynical fraud -- is rather like http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-17#1657309 philosophy.
asciilifeform: and even if he believes that it ~cannot~ be further shrunk, it remains his job to die trying
asciilifeform: not to expand the book to fill available shelf space.
asciilifeform: can say 'it's mature field', whatnot, but then job of practitioner is to SHRINK the textbook
asciilifeform: and the reason why asciilifeform has low opinion of ligo et al is that physics has been growing like winblowz api, like prb, like tumour, and not like growing child ( or 1600-1950 physics, for that matter )
asciilifeform: where's the sukhoi ?
mircea_popescu: well they built some massive laser fuckfloors.
asciilifeform: dunno if it is accurate to describe the grantolade dispense as 'spent to .. see how gravity '
mircea_popescu: i always suspected the ligo nonsense was why alf had such a low opinion of eg cern cyclotron.
mircea_popescu: so obviously the trauma produced some reactions. but to outright ban photons is a little much.
mircea_popescu: i did not, because i did not like the reactive nature of it ^ above.
asciilifeform: it dun have enough meat on its bones, at least as presented in the b00k,
mircea_popescu: came up with a way to explain away laser interferometry not showing these "grav waves" by declaring photons kulaks / enemy of the solid state or such.
mircea_popescu: oh oh oh, the "collective action electrons" guy.
mircea_popescu: "Gravitational coupling of the propagation four-vectors of matter wave functions is formulated in flat space-time."
mircea_popescu: i'm just trying to follow the conversation, clap along.
mircea_popescu: "The G4V transforms the standard DJ MIDI device into a dynamic and formidable software performance controller. Within its fully metal enclosure are 2 ..."
mircea_popescu rereads log, missed this line apparently because doing log checking in parallel with bothering ex romanian ex con ex prime minister.
trinque: ah so g_l refueled on smart-guy virtue signaling, off now to dry clothes on line next to peter thiel's agar pool?
asciilifeform: the 10,000,000 html turdlets approach doesn't work tho.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the web / backend decoupling will hafta occur, it's too fragile as it is
asciilifeform: and no, i don't have a ready collection of it, because i have ONE motherfucking pair of hands
asciilifeform: other than 'script'
asciilifeform: ^ first idea that'd actually match the observation
mircea_popescu: there are also shitty mobile browser that "prefetch", but whatever.
mircea_popescu: and yes, i sometimes will click on a bunch of links. i imagine others too.
mircea_popescu: i don't see msec there. i see seconds
asciilifeform: clicked all of them, and in same order, and exactly same # of msec apart ?
asciilifeform: loading the page, in ordinary browsers, does not result in req-to-every-link
asciilifeform: well, they got PARSED out of an archive.is'd page.
mircea_popescu: seems they actually get clicked from archive.is
mircea_popescu: note that the items in your paste... are indexed as such.
asciilifeform: holy FUCK read the paste plox.
asciilifeform: perpetrator reads the logs.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah i used NAT in much too general a sense of the word. i meant "rando PCs behind routers etc."
asciilifeform: my current hypothesis, re why sporadic, is that somebody made it a payload for a 'cheap' botnet, and nodes fire sporadically
Framedragger: you may overestimating the number of non-NAT'ed boxes mircea_popescu
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: gotta have a web browser to browse the web, dontcha?
asciilifeform: fuck no, these ain't browsers
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they seem repeated. possibly browsers retrying ?
asciilifeform: see the problem ?
gabriel_laddel_p: But it presents a way to get off of "the web", and then swap the underlying networking implementation for gossipd, while retaining a usable UI throughout.
gabriel_laddel_p: Incidentally, hacked the "black diamond" CLIM-web hack a few nights ago. IE, tying graphics to IRC messages via BEIRC.
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: Absurdity. Carver Mead's G4V presentation comes across far better in his video than in his paper, and the video includes slides that don't exist elsewhere.
asciilifeform: i have not watched the film, gabriel_laddel_p . but its existence ~in that form~ does not bode well for the content. but if gabriel_laddel_p wants to write about what he saw -- i'll read..
asciilifeform: buncha these folx -- alan kay, ted nelson, et al
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: Bill Gosper is what then.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: not even speaking of actual breakthroughs -- even discerning crackpots do not put their work in format of 'video' , but written word
gabriel_laddel_p: asciilifeform: there is no standard presentation of the unified theory. All we have is an experiment showing the A-> field is required to fully describe EM.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel_p: if you intended to link to unified theory... you made mistake, you linked to schoolbook that everyone has
gabriel_laddel_p: Also I take it nobody watched the video of what the hasllife author is up to these days I posted to Ben's blog?
a111: Logged on 2017-05-18 16:20 phf: i don't share the anti-postscript sentiment. i think it's a maxwell's equation of graphics programming. introduces idea of graphics state stack, with operations that happen inside state or in transition between state (e.g. "displace everything that i said so far by n pixels right") . pretty much all the graphics code (including for example opengl) is a variation on what postscript does. and most of the things postscript does simply doesn't make any sen
mircea_popescu: dump the log ?
asciilifeform: in other noose, massive ddos of phuctor
mircea_popescu: which is why the no one in question finds itself stuck trying to MAGA.
mircea_popescu: the happenstance that the former are ~all economically useless, and the latter ~all economically useful AND collectively the whole gamut of economy interests no one
mircea_popescu: but anyway, a fine summary of modernity is "the time when middle class status went from owning $x in property to owning $x in property AND generating $y in income".
asciilifeform: they ain't about to simply give up.
mircea_popescu: some have speculated they might not have a choice.