mircea_popescu: is these for people who actually give a shit re pantsuit or what.
asciilifeform: ( the 'influence' thing )
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now >> http://www.returnofkings.com/125632/the-influence-curve
asciilifeform: betcha you played wolfenstein without the swasticas , with green blood, too..
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 15:12 asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzZb6kfctEU << 'my father would spin like a dreidel in his grave if he saw'
r0nin-: is there a link to this youtube elsehwere?
mircea_popescu: anyway. other than the above "can constantify mpfhf ?" question, also open is the matter of alternative padding. currently all we have is oaep.
asciilifeform: of course, arguably if you can actually DO this, you will probably lose interest in the mphf method per se
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: cuz it'd be either 1 or 0 huh
asciilifeform: but instead flipping a single bit that gets xored with the result every time you read from the would-have-been-flipped reg.
asciilifeform: by not actually doing the flip-whole-thing bit
asciilifeform: theoretically you can make it not.
mircea_popescu: so unless you're willing to do ALL the alternatives every time, you won't have "true" constantttime.
asciilifeform: and thereby any ~particular~ invocation, can be called bounded.
mircea_popescu: yes. but it DOES fork on secret bits all the time.
asciilifeform: was more of a philosophical observation : that mphf is not turing-complete ( in the same way 'p' is not. deliberately )
mircea_popescu: (they're all 12 letter words say).
asciilifeform: (i.e. if you, yourself, already computed H(x), then you know how many turns of the crank it took. and can pass that number along.)
asciilifeform: if it always terminates, then yes
mircea_popescu: the ONE way to constant-mpfhf is to calculate ALL the tree of possibilities, 2^message length items EVERY TIME
mircea_popescu: yes, but you'd have to have writer-with-padder on your isolated machine, move pre-padded shit to the fire machine.
asciilifeform: ~after~ a mphf (or similar) hash is taken, the time and space required are known.
mircea_popescu: tbh, i'd very much like to have an alternative there. i put in and took out the thing twice before announcing, this is the third.
mircea_popescu: the 1and0 thing ?
asciilifeform: lol just when i thought up of a hypothetical way to save it!111
mircea_popescu: oaep won;t constant spacetime either.
mircea_popescu: dja want to take it out altogether ?
mircea_popescu: now to the graver matter of mpfhf. http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/#comment-122645
mircea_popescu: to be sure, i don't think you're making a weak case. im leaving the matter open, at least for a while, can you live with that ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was thinking of the aerial gun in ww1, before they figured out that the stuff on the nonbusiness end dun have to be same bullet, only same mass
asciilifeform: yes i can think of a contrieved situation that calls for one. but no i don't want it in the rack next to the ordinary ones.
mircea_popescu: i don't carry around all my rifles all the time, to take a leak, etc. i can't.
asciilifeform: to nail down the unambiguous and concrete.
mircea_popescu: consider : we often use [very!] short forms of ideas in here, and rely on the op to correctly resolve.
asciilifeform: for others, no.
mircea_popescu: i mean, i call out "hey, slut" and a dozen eyes rise. these are collisions, and what of it.
asciilifeform: and there is no escape.
mircea_popescu: this is not altogether a weak argument. consider the converse though : suppose i wish to refer to my key by using fewer chars than 512 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the more i think about it the more i'm convinced the ONLY "fingerprint" for rsa key may be... the modulus. 4096 bits and fuck you, if you can't take 32 chars you don't belong here.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 05:27 asciilifeform: the only sane 'fingerprint' is the entire modulus+exponent.
BingoBoingo: But vase shit has phosphorous, for the flowahs!
mircea_popescu: um. you either standardize them to null, standardize them to something sane, or allow the empire to standardize them to something idiotic. this is your trilemma.
asciilifeform: if some d00d wants to go around saying 'my pubkey can also be referred to by the letter z' that's his life to lose.
mircea_popescu: so then what's teh problem.
mircea_popescu: you want to actually forbid them ?
asciilifeform: likewise we had the fingerprint thread
mircea_popescu: first question, of course, being whether there's value in changing the spec for key primes from "2048" to ">2046" bits.
asciilifeform: ( while also operable on by machine, to demonstrate that the arithmetic in fact comes out as stated )
asciilifeform: in that spirit, other thing asciilifeform aims for with 'p', is to zap the idiocy where pubkey was strictly an item for ~machine~ to read, and make it something primarily for ~man~ to read.
asciilifeform: it is a matter strictly between the fella generating the key, and his wot, not for the author of rsatron.
asciilifeform: if i specify a pubkey for myself with 65536-bit public mod, then other people can simply decide that i'm an arse and that verifying my sigs isn't actually +ev for them
asciilifeform: this means that the reader (READER, long before executing) knows precisely how much time and space the proggy requires.
asciilifeform: p proggy opens up with the breathoflife preamble, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*500) << 8192bit bus, 3 words of stack, 50 bytes of program following the closing ), 500 steps of execution max.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's intent with 'p' is to push in the direction of maximum barking anarchy re pubkeys. as it is we have too many 'standards' as it is, ~all of them ill-conceived and smelling of sulfur.
asciilifeform: no moar 'we heathens have faster rsa because mother dropped us as babies and our rsatron does different work on different hamming weights'
mircea_popescu: you mean the k,e,N thing ?
asciilifeform: the trilema on 'republican rsa key format'
mircea_popescu: dja mean the early gossip talk ?
mircea_popescu: there's been too much waffling re keys on my part (which means -- any). i feel bad about it an' i perceive gotta write up
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you said impossible by any other method.
mircea_popescu: there's no "sporting chance" rules in logic, if your theory is defeated by trivial case your theory is still defeated.
phf: could have a monk of saint ascii life form memorize primes by heart to the 1'000'000th one, referred to by the other monks when primes are required. "please, brother joseph, we need primes #5002 to #5040"
asciilifeform: 'bro do you lift!11' 'hey i lifted myself off the bed today!'
mircea_popescu: it's certainly possible. i know the list "3, 5, 7, 11" is a list of primes through memory.
asciilifeform: this is true. but my original point was that it is impossible to verify the correctness of a list of primes other than by same procedure as generates one.
mircea_popescu: the important difference is that this was not reusable but throwaway code. the requirement was "calculater result" not "write program"
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's ( and probably everyone else's... ) experience, the most lethal bugs are ones which produce ~correct~ answer, ~all of the time
mircea_popescu: once you found the misspelling you found it and ere you found it the text was just as correctly spelled as it will be after you find it : "as far as i know, correctly spelled"
mircea_popescu: testing only reveals the presence of errors, not their absence. sure. and guess what ? reading code with human eyes, also. and so on.
asciilifeform: but if you were to use its list of primes for some other program...
asciilifeform: ^ is a slightly modified version of what lobbes posted. it gives the correct answer, even
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698279 << it has the significant advantage that it bridges into unrelated record. if your result diverges from the result, you now have a grounded suspicion re the source of whatever list you used.
mircea_popescu: these premises are dependent however on diversity of implementation. (remarkably, they are not dependent on correctness of implementation ; but they are dependent on correctness of treatment of divergence, ie, no "consensus-building", ever, at all)
mircea_popescu: in other words, the republican model significantly reduces costs and, incredibly enough, introduces a new revenue stream.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 06:00 ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?
mircea_popescu: divergence. and if there is divergence, there is significant educational benefit in it, as seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698143
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:45 asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698273 << verification happens through coherence. if one man writes one program to do one calculation, that man must check that a) his implementation is correct and b) his design actually does take from input to output if correctly implemented. if however the lordship writes a dozen+ programs to do the same calculation, no one man needs to verify either a or b for his own item UNLESS there's
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/ << Trilema - Where THE FUCK!!! is everyone ?
asciilifeform: mod6: the three snippets are a pretty good, imho, intro course to 'you can have a useful, statically-compiled lang without promiscuous pointers'
mod6: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation. << thanks for posting anyway
asciilifeform: reads, interestingly, very much like the gut tuberculosis thing
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/#comment-122630 << in other lulz
mod6: using PeterL's method, i get the same number with openssl
PeterL: try this: print a list of the primes up to 100 or 1000, remove one at random, then try to spot which is missing just by looking at the list
lobbes: True. Plus if someday I need a bigger list, then I gotta go editing hardcoded lists vs just flipping a parameter somewhere
asciilifeform: not that lists of primes ain't handy -- but that the effort needed to verify one is >= to what is needed to generate same. ergo why not generate.
asciilifeform: or for that matter the one 2yrs ago re the hypothetical tabs-an'-spaces vpatches and 'what determines effort needed to read'
asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial
shinohai: 13:40:00 @gmaxwell (also for sending out transactions people can use many other options, including SMS and snail mail--- a txn is so small you can just communicate it however else you communicate. Snail mail is slow, but if you're only communicating with the outside world via that already...)
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: !~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation.
mircea_popescu: so it turns out, i never heard of gut tb because you generally need aids to get it. and back when i was reading they didn't have aids just yet.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform in fact has ~several~ dishes , from old renters of the grounds, but can't be arsed
asciilifeform: or i suppose it would, if you have the guts from old tv sat dish
mod6: i thought it was 1*2*3*5*7*11*13 ... all the way up through whatever prime fits into < 4160 bits.
mod6: maybe i misunderstand the request.
mircea_popescu: i'm tal;king of the nobodies on a stick herp0derping importantly
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't care about the fucking shrems involved. we know they're smegma.
mircea_popescu: cuz that's what the fucking wheel is, a REQUIREMENT. like totally optional.
mircea_popescu: and the fucking littoral compressed lulzship doesn't require wheels.
shinohai: 12:27:29 Socal Mircea_popescu no it isn't it saves on bandwidth costs and doesn't require internet to get the BTC blockchain
mircea_popescu: "look mom, i'm just like the nigger on tv! talking of the satcom portion!! would you like to hear more meaningless words ???"
mircea_popescu: motherfucking imbecile nothings omfg
mircea_popescu: you know ? the SATCOM!!!!! portion
mircea_popescu: "<Socal> Ah ok I don't know about FIBRE I was simply speaking on the SATCOM portion"
asciilifeform: they purchased time on 4 commercial sats
shinohai: "Go to the #blockstream-satellite IRC channel on freenode for additional help."
mircea_popescu: present tense is merely a political requirement in the vein of "subway hero must be not white"
mircea_popescu: but to summarize : words are slowly fuzzed in the desired emotional direction.
asciilifeform: shinohai: link seems to refer to the satellite thing in present tense. it is live ?
asciilifeform: i dun think this one has the excuse of mere idiocy
mircea_popescu remembers the day mycobacterium was called "koch's baccilus"
mircea_popescu will now have to hit the textbooks.
mircea_popescu: shinohai hey, the forum is a high bar.
mircea_popescu: tuberculosis of the gut ?!
asciilifeform: it's that, or forcing the reader to puzzle out repeated pastes of the slice expression
mod6: having to do the 'rename'
mod6: a topic for further discussion i suppose.
asciilifeform: using the 'rename' feature
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "the taking of pelham 123" is one helluva usg-film offering. we find that "wall street guys" r criminalz, that everyday mta riders are heroic (even if a little half-breed), and all sorts of good and valuable citizenship lessons for life!
lobbes: aka, I get the same output as both of PeterL's runs
lobbes: If using the 4160 bit limit, then I get the following (comes to 4150 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ED76z/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:20 mircea_popescu: this is actually going to be teh magic number of the republic. so at this juncture i would like to ask everyone to compute "the largest primorial (ie, product of all successive primes) that fits in 515 bits", sign it and put it into deedbot.
mircea_popescu: i suppose a better translation would be "doctor, i hear voices, they talk to me, should i worry ?" "you should worry when you start talking back."
mircea_popescu: im not even sure what the failing is ?
ben_vulpes: aaah. then it was a /personal/ failing, not a systemic one.
mircea_popescu: 16 is 2 to the power of 4.
ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?
mod6: alright. thanks for the explanation.
asciilifeform: you can't use ada's array concatenation feature either, to cheat, because i banned it. it introduces implicit jump.
asciilifeform: and you can't subtract ffa x0 - x1 unless they are same lengh !!
asciilifeform: this is because in the original, you can have a L of, say, 3
asciilifeform: they exist so that the input:output lengths invariants of subtraction and of kara recurse per se, 1:2, are met
mod6: <+asciilifeform> and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ? << no, i think im missing the entire idea of why this is written this way.
asciilifeform: array slices retain the indexing of the underlying array. this is The Right Thing ( see prev thread on subj where i explained to mircea_popescu ) but makes iterating over them slightly trickier in certain cases.
asciilifeform: mod6: an array slice ( concept which also exists in common lisp ) can be thought of as a sane man's pointer. i.e. it maps into the original, and writes go through; but it is guaranteed not to spill, out of the original or out of its own more constrained bound
asciilifeform: they don't exist
asciilifeform: mod6: because we can't use the shorthand any moar
mod6: i dun get why, if you didn't change the maff, why you would make it more complicated
asciilifeform: mod6: to understand ffa, you absolutely gotta grasp how ada array slices ( which Always Do The Right Thing ) work
mod6: i dun get it then
asciilifeform: but no copying of the input
asciilifeform: mod6: 'if grandmother had balls..' (tm)
mod6: just was curious if your readability issue could be resolved with pulling the paramaters of Mul_Karatsuba back out in similar fashion to the original. 'tis all.
asciilifeform: e.g. the one you quoted
asciilifeform: the changed lines, what else
asciilifeform: if you do this, you get the original, what else could you get
asciilifeform: mod6: i dun understand the question
mod6: not that the latter is all /that/ bad.
mod6: asciilifeform: so if you add back in the FZs that were removed in the 2^n version (re-adding in the 50% reduction of temp space that yields no opt.), do we get the ~runtime of the original?
ben_vulpes: "the greatest website to ever fit in a single TCP packet"
mod6: <+asciilifeform> this kind of optimization could be interesting if we were dealing in MB+ ffaism << yeah, perhaps the sample size used was not enough to see the delta?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:58 asciilifeform: and by extension, with the temp buffers in same
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> is the "i just wanted to" right opposed at the "i just wanted to left" removal as being too radical ? after all, they DO "just want to" undisturbed ? or what ? << It seems like there is a mass of confusion in them.
asciilifeform tries to count how many 'improved' versions he wrote, and then discarded...
asciilifeform: this is perhaps the most pedantically massaged item asciilifeform ever wrote, this thing
asciilifeform: ( the whole thing is quite compact, and misering on codesize loses massively moar than it wins here. (
asciilifeform: the inline thing may seem like premature optimization, but function calls in ada are quite expensive, because bounds checking. so it makes MASSIVE difference.
asciilifeform: ( and it ain't an instance of 'compiler too smart for own good', either, but perfectly legitimate refusal to try to fill up the universe with your mistake )
mod6: that's what i was trying to get at. i suppose the compiler would just reject your request to inline then, or perhaps thats ctronic thinking.
asciilifeform: mod6: you can't inline a recursive call because this'd be logically equiv. to making the program infinitely long
asciilifeform: ( in so far as i can tell, it indeed respects the standard, and preserves control flow as written )
asciilifeform: ^ for readers who wondered why karatsuba is the 1 routine in ffa ~not~ inlined... think.
asciilifeform: 'this' being, if it wasn't obvious, the powerof2 constraint thing.
mod6: this might be extra-strength dumb, but... in your new power of 2 version, do you need to inline the Mul & Square of karatsuba?
asciilifeform: but as it happens, my hypothesis re 'this will speed up mult' is wholly false; and the one where 'it will simplify program from reader pov' also, somewhat paradoxically, false.
asciilifeform: i abolished the 'record' thing
mod6: as it stands, at the moment, sounds like a mechanical push. with the ability to set the length to some power of two. i'd say it's a bit harder to follow, code-wise, with the recursive calls perhaps.
asciilifeform: but apparently does 0 for us in the expected application.
mod6: so you didn't get the 10%?
asciilifeform: however, the expected speedup did NOT materialize !!
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:57 asciilifeform: if instead of 'mult of 64' we had 'powers of 2', we could dispense with the odd split in karatsuba
asciilifeform: iirc the details of this tale are in last summer's l0gz
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697933 << pretty easily. asciilifeform had a bumper wreck in bmore once, passing cop declined to take report, demanded 'who was killed here? if nobody, i have no time for this, and no one else from station will come either'
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 20:37 mircea_popescu: that's why the whole "doctor shining light in eyes" thing.
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/08/14/the-phantom-of-the-opera/ << ยป Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The Phantom of the Opera
shinohai: !~weather
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/so-the-dollar-vigilante-scam-ring-is-going-to-jail/#comment-122625 << in other "trilema aeterna" lulz.
shinohai: Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnd ... there's yer answer asciilifeform
asciilifeform: which is odd, because i still see the bots !
mircea_popescu: is the "i just wanted to" right opposed at the "i just wanted to left" removal as being too radical ? after all, they DO "just want to" undisturbed ? or what ?
mircea_popescu: um. "The goal is to turn peaceful protests violent, and spark a Civil War." i don't get it, how is this a bad thing ?
BingoBoingo: "According to the Southern Poverty Law Centre, (fuck them, but they've done good research into him), Jason Kessler was previously involved with the Occupy Movement and was an ardent Obama supporter through both terms."
BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/6tme1k/jason_kessler_organizer_of_unite_the_right/
shinohai: Some derp on tardstalk linked me to it in a PM ... wouldnt be surprised if he has spammed them to dpb too
mircea_popescu: a better exercise would be if any/all these webexperts actually bothered to sit down and derive their conclusions from prime notions.
shinohai: penalize by selling the fork and buying another honest one, but he will need sufficient mining resources and other significant BTC holders to enjoin him in this fight. Rather I think most astute BTC holders will realize this is the end of the paradigm and liquidate.'
shinohai: "I believe Mircea Popescu has gravely miscalculated. Either he has been coloring his own BTC within the danger period (i.e. being careful of the lineage of the BTC obtained in recent times), else his BTC is also susceptible to being stolen. Otherwise, he would need vast mining resources to maintain his own fork or he would need to penalize/bribe miners to not steal his BTC where it is so encumbered. He can
shinohai: https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-re-anonymint-shocking-crisis-coming-to-cryptocurrency-in-sept-20170814t065451341z <<< The expert on mircea_popescu has spoken
BingoBoingo: And the anthropological collection of Charlottesville stuff from the aquarium http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=8661&pr=1
BingoBoingo: In other social experiments on the substance of herdemocracy http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=8674&pr=1
mircea_popescu: (for the record, the difference between the nemtsov and the pantsuit is that while they both represent the herdemocracy side, the pantsuit is ineffectual, lazy, effete citizen, whereas the nemtsov is hardy, insistent, ambitious orc born outside the walls.)
mircea_popescu: this is the typical end product of the imbecile "just the facts" "i am equpped to think for myself" ustard.
mircea_popescu: tea was served in cups on trays. it's ok for tea to come in teabags, what. the trays also included alarm clocks set for whatever minutes a 10-bux-an-hour pinoy randomly put on the mass produced "fair trade" crappy teabags. 6 or 7 or 3 or whatever.
mircea_popescu: some douchebag opened a tea house, with a lot of verbiage about how relaxing and progressive and everything it is, and how it goes in other places and you know, brimming with the imbecile self-satisfaction of the nemtsov.
BingoBoingo: Most of the grocery stores have the eclipse things here. Cardboard 3D glasses type things with ~shade 13 filter and lots of small print about "no more than 3 minutes continuous use"
BingoBoingo: Oh, USian shopkeeps do that all the time too!
mircea_popescu: happens all the time, yes.
mircea_popescu: the direct equivalent would be argentarded shopkeepers "declining to sell".
BingoBoingo: Well, at this point Baltimore ~= Internment Camp, at the very least Ghetto in the 1940s sense
mircea_popescu: this is some mindblowing usiana right there.
shinohai: Gold: " The Rust Evangelism Strike Force recommends several resources for people who would like to poorly reimplement other unix tools."
mircea_popescu: maybe just "dun listen to old bags, they make you deaf and dumb"
BingoBoingo: They can't get those language abilities back
BingoBoingo: The nags are too deaf to hear that. Too much Maury/CNN/kennedy exposure.
BingoBoingo: If we have learned anything from the Roger Ver-ified tribe, it is that there is a portion of the idiocy which will stare at the sun, for however long it takes the moon to transit. From this the nags and bags get their power. All it takes is one stuple to set all the nags off.
mircea_popescu: that's why the whole "doctor shining light in eyes" thing.
BingoBoingo: Well, much of humanity is more stupid than the rest of the animals. Likely will continue staring well beyond point pain receptors yell to cease and decist.
mircea_popescu: somehow this has evolved from "im an old woman, nobody wants to pay attention to me, let me nag people" to "don't stare at the sun" to "omfg SUN IS DANGEROUS!" and it will never fucking end.
mircea_popescu: yes, concave mirrors and lenses can blind you. but if the sun itself is a problem then you're a lifefrom from a different planet.