mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fraction is so small as to be below heisenberg limits. this matters.
trinque: worst case is the original publisher is dead, and all you've got are whoever cared about him.
mircea_popescu: tell you what, i also have no proof in your sense the slavegirls ain't cheating on me.
trinque: penultimate worst case is that folks republish their items in the case of hashpocalypse. and they tell their trusted peers. and it propagates over wot.
asciilifeform: they are vooodoo.
asciilifeform: just as there is not for block cipher.
mircea_popescu: the important point is : acordeon hash function set up to spit 256 byte or 512 byte hashes WILL NOT collide.
mircea_popescu: we're talking of different things in the sense you went off on a tangent.
mircea_popescu: there's no shits given re tmsa-rsa-signature being retrocompatible.
asciilifeform: yes but you cannot retro-elongate hashes of the past.
mircea_popescu: nobody forces us to use the 32/64 byte crap nsit likes.
asciilifeform: the past has no 'now'
asciilifeform: hash collisions cannot be fixed by 'we use THIS OTHER hash NAO! haha' because now enemy can monkey with the past.
asciilifeform: there is no place for blank cheques in network protocol.
mircea_popescu: "hurr durr we know how to sign "cocksucker" whenever they use 93 bit outputs. which is... not now."
mircea_popescu: and besides, with a settable hash like mpfhf you can use different size hashes all the time.
mircea_popescu: just spur of the moment.
mircea_popescu: and it's not even the only technique.
trinque: doesn't that successfuly diminish the likelihood of a usable collision?
mircea_popescu: "yes, enemy has alphabet of chunks : he knows how to sign ilif every time it comes after asci and is 2nd in ther chain"
asciilifeform: what's the final bit ?
mircea_popescu: the final bit is, yes.
mircea_popescu: 0001what someotherdays does not check out against faadd
asciilifeform: enemy takes your 0001what someotherdays00002 moraff02930005 .... etc and yer phucked
mircea_popescu: and you know 9 blocks were signed, and they are as such :
asciilifeform: what are the blocks ?
mircea_popescu: nao you re-arrange by the count.
asciilifeform: and enemy takes fullblock, block1, and block2 and rearranges on the wire and naowat.
mircea_popescu: but there is. blocks.
asciilifeform: there ain't no such thing as fulltext signing if fulltext is bigger than your modulus ( and padding also takes space )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> that's just another hash. << no, tmsr-rsa does fulltext signing.
asciilifeform: that's just another hash.
asciilifeform: worx great until actually pressed to capacity and then suddenly worx not at all.
asciilifeform: trinque: the other thing, if you are going to put entire weight of the known universe on a hash, gotta specify what happens in case of a collision.
trinque: it's a fact there's a log line, and also a fact a phfnode said about it, I saw at time T
trinque: isn't any very good reason why phf's style and ben_vulpes's style are both facts expressed in some datastructure, identified by their respective hashes.
mircea_popescu: this is very specifically what they mean by "permanent solution to temporary problem" btw. here we are.
asciilifeform: as ethertardium is to btc, etc
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in exactly same way and for same reason as the rest of www stack
asciilifeform: ( or to show any relation b/w objects other than how you ~got to it~, which is wholly incidental to the object ! )
ben_vulpes: as an aside, it is obnoxious that anchors are not passed in the request
mircea_popescu: much like digital notation of transcendents, be it more convenient, does not un-make their transcendence.
mircea_popescu: it is more ~convenient~ to have the url in phf style, but this convenience does not change the fact that yes, they ARE ben_vulpes style.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-09 23:01 ben_vulpes: in other wwwtronic toyz: http://logs.bvulpes.com/chainstate#1d176a0b-2995-4522-b9bd-b14447c6bec7
mircea_popescu: old style ben_vulpes was an attempt to do exactly this i suspect, we nixed it because too long hashes ; but practical considerations have no theoretical power.
asciilifeform: called the xxxxx 'tumblers'
mircea_popescu: that superficially it appears that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01 is a top node for a set of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#xxxxxx is just unfortunate ; in reality the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#xxxxxx are the topnodes and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01 just a particular mask on them.
mircea_popescu: but in fact my quering for http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01 is a double request : "give me all the lines from the log that fit "2017-09-01" mask, ie from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1707983 to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1709360 or w/e.
mircea_popescu: now, that in practice these APPEAR mixed, is a matter of little theoretical consequence.
mircea_popescu: "give me the list of all lines with string x" are not requests for urls per se, but requests for computation. "please interpret the indirection layer and compose a list of urls as a solution to that".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1709154 << seems the correct solution is the layer of indirection. you do have actual information, which is immutable, and which can be served as urls ; and you have indexing etcetera, which yes is mutable, but which also best lives as an alias layer on top of urls. so in this sense : each line in the log is an url ; the query for "give me the by-day list of archives" just like the query for
mircea_popescu: and the inept copper is trying to flirt with the hussy, in their inept cuckolded way. and she's evidently privy to it, and so is her cousin. (2nd pic)
mircea_popescu: considering the old woman in question worked for the uk govt, there are truly fewer things more upright or morally deserving to do than to destroy her soul and throw the bits in the garbage.
mircea_popescu: "She said: These people have just trashed 30 years of my life and thrown it into bin bags. It is soul-destroying."
mircea_popescu: there's also loads of whores, and some migrant gypsies. the latter category possibly only ones who are both having fun and using the uk as it is intended and merits to be used.
mircea_popescu: there's loads of "it experts" who get all excited about salaries being slightly higher than in bucharest and then do indescribably stupid bullshit in the vein of undertaking 30 year adjustable mortgages to buy the utter shit that passes for real estate in england and there only.
mircea_popescu: argentines also think they have casinos.
mircea_popescu: honestly i wasn't imagining anything beyond a http://trilema.com/2015/varia-varietatis-or-your-all-about-the-mollusc-guide/#selection-153.0-153.35 sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: whatever. if you're looking for advice, the correct advice is stay away from women.
mircea_popescu: i can't even parse that, wtf is "romanian gamblers", and what is "their womenfolk" and what is voluptuous here and so on.
asciilifeform: separation of flies and cutlets algo works best by starting from the peripheries -- take off the flies which clearly touch only flies, and the cutlerstuff that clearly touches solely cutletstuff.
trinque: specifically publishing is a separate concern from the rest, and would benefit from the fault tolerance proposed.
mircea_popescu: in this view the "web" logsearch is really properly "that part of uci you lot intuiutively implemented"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho trinque hit upon a potentially good 'engineer cut' tho -- separation of 'fetch me this thing, that we know exists' from 'perform the following computation with these-here params'
mircea_popescu: this is the problem, with pantsuit as prb alike : they lack the capacity to influence reality. at any point, arbitrarily long chain of "progress", unwound at 0 cost.
mircea_popescu: and they still have nfi, and still can be helped.
asciilifeform: i can see where mircea_popescu is going. they had nfi, then some 'kind' soul 'helped'
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 19:50 trinque: hypertext on gossipd may sensibly *lack* the notion of "website" entirely.
mircea_popescu: there was a time when most ghosts had no idea wtf this http is and how does internets again ?
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 19:50 ben_vulpes: what as if there are zero with spellable names gtfo
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1709065 << for the record, slashdot was named SPECIOFICALLY as to bother lamers. "wait, http:///. ?
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 19:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my point was that by the time they typed in 83 the rest of the "unmemorizable address" is already filled in.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 19:45 asciilifeform: trinque ( and others ) : out of curiosity, how many ipv4's do you personally keep in yer head ? ( NOT counting 'magics' , e.g. 127.0.0.1 )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1708972 << would cure nobody, they want it to "how does the shutdown relate to me". the larger half of the whole "left or right can of pepsi" is the subjective impression of "personalization" of can of pepsi.
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: there are arcane approaches to solving the problem mathematically ( see shamir's poker , etc ) but afaik none in battlefield use today.
asciilifeform: claiming trng is unprovable. they might have a fg, or they might have a wad of bytes generated in 2014 and designated winners get a copy.
asciilifeform: this does not actually solve the problem of proving that the output of prng was not known in advance to one or more of the players.
asciilifeform: ^ was in fashion for a while. prng is used, and the next day (week, month, etc) seed is published. however,
asciilifeform: ( and problematic in other ways -- not even shy about using 'whitening' for instance. )
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: there are commercial rng that use interferometer, yes ( NONE of them auditable by owner, in fact many epoxied and otherwise artificially painful to examine )
asciilifeform: 'We submitted extensive information about our random number generator (RNG) to an independent organization. We asked this trusted resource to perform an in-depth analysis of the randomness of the output of the RNG, and its implementation in the shuffling of the cards on our platform.'
asciilifeform: which contains not only no proof of anything, but not even an assertion re what exactly they supposedly use
asciilifeform: sorta what the toyota example is about.
asciilifeform: for that matter, maybe ~asciilifeform~ does. but you have to ~add~ P(one) to P(the other)...
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i haven't any notion, maybe he runs them near his particle accelerator's beamline, wat.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what do you expect from toyota when you go to them instead of used dealer ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: all fg should be assumed to pass through ftmeade. sorta what the audit process is for, neh.
asciilifeform: so if mircea_popescu is paying ben_vulpes 10 dubloons per diem to guard his plutonium stash, it does not follow that this is 'above market' just because there is a queue of redditors offering to do it for 1 dubloon
asciilifeform: if you think you see somebody willingly paying 'more than market price', consider that you might be mistaken re the identity of what he's paying for
BingoBoingo: Ah, sorry The20YearIRCloud was it's name
BingoBoingo: !#s Thetwentyyear
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> old assets lolz, "rentalstarter" froze asset trading and then sold a pile of shares at above market price to "mystery investor who wanted to pay more than market price" << AHA, Thetwentyyear or some shit like that
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there's nuffin wrong with folx reselling fg, or using it for fly fishing, or balloon ballast, whatever
ben_vulpes: old assets lolz, "rentalstarter" froze asset trading and then sold a pile of shares at above market price to "mystery investor who wanted to pay more than market price"
asciilifeform: the main failure is that it does not :
asciilifeform: not so much from philanthropy, as from the fact of gpg being rather like the sarcophagus at chernobyl, times 9000
asciilifeform: a replacement is in the works here.
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: in the process of prototyping that one, we found that gpg is a turd
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: see some linked examples ( near top of page , near the schems ) of other folx who verified.
asciilifeform: this left johnson noise; and natural radioactivity + scintillation detector. the latter may appear in a future snsa product.
asciilifeform: ( which in turn works its way into the output, no matter what you do )
asciilifeform: because there is NO such thing as a zero-artifact adc.
asciilifeform: ( and many other nice things )
asciilifeform: you're welcome to send in 3x the btc !
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: waiwat -- you'd pay 3x, but not the current price ?!
ben_vulpes: how is s.nsa earning the btc back with the price cuts? were materials not paid for in btc many moons past?
asciilifeform: it does 0 good to earn back something other than the btc that was spent. because snsa operates in btc.
hanbot: Barbarossa_ if you own tits in some capacity you could always apply the proceeds of http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/ to your order eh
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: to shed more light on (entirely not seekrit) price structure -- to pay for producing a device, btc is spent. then it gotta be earned back.
asciilifeform: however, the difference b/w what ~that~ costs, and what we charge, is denominated in btc.
asciilifeform: Barbarossa_: technically you can get it for exactly what it costs us -- make it yerself from the schematics
trinque: ikr, usd loses value all the time. serious variance.
asciilifeform: there are no plans to peg the price, however, to a fixed quantity of usd, or troy of gold, or pounds of grain, or any other babylonian metric.,
asciilifeform: and yes there was recently a price cut
ben_vulpes: Barbarossa_: there was just a price cut
trinque: not that particular one, but I would hazard a guess it lacked the hierarchial trust topology that makes other republican items work.
trinque: anyhow will write, not gonna try to babble it into logs further.
trinque: www itself is an incaism. death to "it was said on arsebook walled garden; lives and dies at the mercy of arsebook"
asciilifeform: ah trinque you meant the incaism of dns etc
trinque: imagine the hilarity of actual human communication resembling www; you and I wish to speak irl, we go to the designated 3rd party for the particular language we'll speak, he relays between us and all other folks discussing same.
asciilifeform: ( the www people simply pissed on the problem, african-style, and didn't even pretend to solve )
asciilifeform: incidentally ted nelson struggled with this conundrum, and imho his failure to produce anything looked like a solution, is 1 of the reasons why he was relegated to 'voice in wilderness' rather than getting to define www
asciilifeform: more pedantic -- the merrier
asciilifeform: ( sorta like my http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000257.html item , for instance )
asciilifeform: trinque: might i persuade you to write the algo out ? in longhand
trinque: and as I describe things the gossipdnet now has, if it wants, a history of what its seen, and a way to refer to it.
trinque: and tomorrow you ask and it says new hash, and maybe even gives you the hashed item, how nice
asciilifeform: just like http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/DC02BECF037180105CA079586B51212366B61A8CD3BB5992FD2F90CF9FC7D6C5 , a d00d whose key is unbroken, the page can have potentially very different output the ~next~ time you read it
asciilifeform: just same as with the phuctor example
asciilifeform: the only meaningful way to represent it is by listing the input operands which produced it ( in this case, the fp arg )
asciilifeform: trinque: the thing behind that url is ephemeral by nature.
asciilifeform: but tomorrow could be something else, if the ratings change
trinque: you belch out facts, rest of the world can either hear you or not, can either confirm you said them or not. or wtf was gossipd again?
trinque: your aliases for items which identify membership of the item in some set *are themselves items which your station publishes, individually*
asciilifeform: it fails because -- in the particular example i gave -- it ain't 1:1
trinque: you're going to have to point out to me where link-by-hash fails then
trinque: it looks like the hash of an item, and whatever thing is showing me logs either knows what it is, or doesn't
trinque: folks can now ask me whether I have a particular hash, but can only know you meant it to mean "mahmood-anal-perforation-7" if they know you, or if you signed the fact that it is
asciilifeform: forget the pushing variant. i want to put a handle on a particular pgpkey or pgpfp into the l0gz. what does that look like ?
trinque: my station hears, can ask you for the goods.
trinque: there was a very recent thread re: this
asciilifeform: trinque: lemme confess to you the context : i recently took a break from $usual to write an ada www server, and quickly barfed. because thought 'and what, it also gotta handle POSTs, and quickly becomes asinine mess of horror'
trinque: so yes, if wot.deedbot.org were on gossipd it'd eat by bot attached to particular station, maybe redundant somehow, but leaving that aside, this contemplated DHT could still make particular states of the thing redundant past the the death of trinque
asciilifeform: describe plox the algo
trinque: even the search
asciilifeform: see the 'phuctor as a static www' thread
trinque: and yes would kill the "dynamic web" thing which, what the fuck, it's hypertext not a program, even if a program generated the hypertext.
asciilifeform: the tricky bit is how to propagate these without ending up with 'no individual node gives anything to allcomers, yes, but allcomer can ring the whole world as a bell and it never stops'
asciilifeform: ( i use one of these ~daily, 'kademlia' )
trinque: yessir, dht atop what you're talking about would be quite robust to this whole "hurr durr took down the website FBI logo srs"
asciilifeform: aa in the sense of dht
trinque: how the p2p networks, gnutella et al, worked, but routed over gossipd wotnet
asciilifeform: it goes down, the answer to your query of its pubkey is mu until goes back up, neh
asciilifeform: then as trinque said.
asciilifeform: there is no WHO separate from pubkey.
trinque: the hash says what item I want
trinque: eh not sold on addressing being the thing; addressing identifies who I asked
asciilifeform: ah there.
asciilifeform: and makes poor use of not only bandwidth but the frontbrain which is sitting right there.
trinque: but "I want the page with hash H"
asciilifeform: and the problem has applications elsewhere ( dictating rsa keys over voice etc )
asciilifeform: trinque: because it is very difficult to murder with no trace a thing to which all of the apparent alternatives are spike cones.
trinque: hypertext on gossipd may sensibly *lack* the notion of "website" entirely.
trinque: why make dns better rather than murder leaving no trace?
ben_vulpes: what as if there are zero with spellable names gtfo
trinque: bookmark the digits with a name
asciilifeform: what will you suggest to the iphonist ? 'fuck off and go sit on a road cone' ?
asciilifeform: trinque ( and others ) : out of curiosity, how many ipv4's do you personally keep in yer head ? ( NOT counting 'magics' , e.g. 127.0.0.1 )
asciilifeform: with the attendant unearned rents for derps.
asciilifeform: then dns will still exist 100y from nao
asciilifeform: pov is from area denial op ( kill dns as a thing perceived to be required by the cattle ) rather than 'for republic', was what i thought
mircea_popescu: there is no way to escape this, whoseover goes for many is our enemy and i shall personally knife his rabbits.
asciilifeform: trinque: yer comparing unlikes. d00d with same phone # for 50 yrs != shouting to crowd containing entire iq bellcurve and going for max % who remember when they get home
trinque: can even shake the thing like a monkey if you didn't mean it!
mircea_popescu: forget pantsuits trying to take the url out of the browser. apparently they convinced the herd to live without numbers ?
mircea_popescu: apparently it's a lost technology, this, the NUMBER
trinque: old farts still manage to key in the phone number to call AM radio
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my point was that by the time they typed in 83 the rest of the "unmemorizable address" is already filled in.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-30 21:57 mircea_popescu: the only reasonable move for safeguarding earth's future, is to keep you lot as far as feasible from any buttons that are connected to anything.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck is there to predict ? that old women are stupid ? that the children they raise http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-30#1706699 ?
mircea_popescu: and somehow nobody picked up the pantsuited abominations of THAT period and whipped them to death to appease the dust bowl dust gods.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 19:12 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1708972 <<< none of them even knows how to find a browser without autocomplete.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1709009 << so you make a mnemonizer that fits on propaganda pamphlet, wat. gotta separate 'is problem worth solving' from the 'how to solve'
mircea_popescu: graph operators/industrial draughtsmen about how "rain follows the plow" and other convenient anthropo-globalwarmisms of the oldwman herd cca 1800.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1708973 << no. some non-people are trained as part of their non-people training at the hands of old women to a. never show their cunt in public b. run away whenever specific sounds are heard (1. sirens, 2. "freeze", 3. "nigger", 4. numbers and math, 5. etcetera). this is how old women build "a society" which looks exactly like fucking john gast's "american progress", a "painting" made by tele
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-01#1708972 <<< none of them even knows how to find a browser without autocomplete.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 07:36 mircea_popescu: in other shit i discover, tila tequilla isn't who i thought it was.
BingoBoingo: Here's another fat joke: "Acral dry gangrene"
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 06:35 danielpbarron: the hunger games chick showed her cunt even
asciilifeform: now on the other hand if somebody sold a board with, e.g., several MB of sram + nic magnetics + uart hole -- then yes
mod6: <+asciilifeform> in very very other noose : the vendor's vga and ps/2 kbd demo verilog for ice40 builds and WORX << cool
asciilifeform: ( olimex sells a little adapter that bolts vga db15 plug and minidin ps/2 to the ice40-1k and -8k boardz )
asciilifeform: in very very other noose : the vendor's vga and ps/2 kbd demo verilog for ice40 builds and WORX
asciilifeform: this could easily be a, say, plugin for heathen browsers etc.
asciilifeform: moldbug et al had their own version of this ( https://archive.is/f0siO << asciilifeform's lispified take on it )
diana_coman: mod6, yeah, node's been fine for quite a while; I'm still looking at the options to run one with a public ip too but not yet settled on that
mircea_popescu: in other shit i discover, tila tequilla isn't who i thought it was.
mircea_popescu: like half the people actually use own names for nicks, and most of the rest are about as far removed as you with your alfred.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 05:10 AlfredAlfer: say you're completely anonymous, don't use your real name, like I assume all you guys do.. is it easy for them to tie what you've said onto your actual person?
diana_coman: yeah, I think you actually held his hand quite a lot but who knows what he has there exactly
mircea_popescu: kinda on the contrary.
mod6: heheh. i wonder what the btcbase (or previous incantation) link density is yoy.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, back in say 2014-2015 we had 1.5-2k-2.5k line logs and it wasn't such a load. but the lines musta gotten denser or something, because even 1k nowadays is like... god.