Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-04-11 | 2018-04-13 → ↓
asciilifeform: !!up britknee
deedbot: britknee voiced for 30 minutes.
britknee: Hello
mircea_popescu: hi britknee
britknee: Hey dear, I believe you are the one I was told to speak with
britknee: Something about random numbers and breast
mircea_popescu: you here to show your tits ?
britknee: Yup!
mircea_popescu: so then why not say so
mircea_popescu: 23df00b4
britknee: Sorry, I didn't know it was out in the open 😮
britknee: Neat, let me find something to write with.
mircea_popescu: and in other logs, "CL-Feed-Parser/0.0.00 (SBCL 1.4.5; Linux;"
ckang: !!up sashahsas
deedbot: sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
ckang: sashahsas was too but she is @ work, told me she could sneak off and do it though
mircea_popescu: lol. best kind!
ckang: yea it just may take her a minute to do it depending on whats going on
sashahsas: Hey ckang
sashahsas: Hi mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: how's work ?
mircea_popescu: sashahsas 1ba61222
sashahsas: Intermittent, had a break to check phone though now.
sashahsas: Should have 10 minutes here soon though.
ben_vulpes: dear #trilema is we is an apache prefork club for mod_php?
ben_vulpes entirely at sea with this
mircea_popescu: aand in other imperial wunderwaffen, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh2ChGFrceM
ben_vulpes: there are a few threading models in apache as i understand it, prefork, worker and event
mircea_popescu: i use workers.
ben_vulpes: thanks mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: !!up sashahsas
deedbot: sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!up britknee
deedbot: britknee voiced for 30 minutes.
douchebag: oooh
mircea_popescu: !!up sashahsas
deedbot: sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!pay sashahsas 0.02
mircea_popescu: what do you work, anyway ?
sashahsas: Hows it going? Have a few minutes here while I finish eating
sashahsas: Hotel, front desk manager
mircea_popescu: haha nice.
sashahsas: Boring lol
sashahsas: But I enjoy the calm
mircea_popescu: one of my slavegirls used to work that actually
mircea_popescu: in a prior life.
sashahsas: Slave girls?
sashahsas: Tell me more
ben_vulpes: okay now for the next wtf: phpinfo returns instantly, i can open a database connection from php and query for the number of tables, but when i use the mp-wp index.php shit slows to a 2.7 second crawl
ben_vulpes: i must actually be too thick to configure an mpwp lamp stack.
mircea_popescu: bizarre.
mircea_popescu: how do you measure the 2.7 second ?
ben_vulpes: moreover i got the same behavior out of the php_fpm and proxy setup last night, but had trouble believing my eyes. now i've reproduced it with mod_php and am just as baffled.
ben_vulpes: time curl -H 'Host: vantucky' localhost
mircea_popescu: does it take just as long for a dummy index.html ?
ben_vulpes: .07s to serve robots.txt, .011s to serve phpinfo, .011s to serve phpinfo with a db connection and query
mircea_popescu: this is nutty.
ben_vulpes: 2.7 to serve the index.php from my copy of mp-wp
mircea_popescu: do you have an usable outside url ?
ben_vulpes: stick 161.0.121.247 vantucky into your /etc/hosts and curl it on port 800
ben_vulpes: try phpinfo.php and then index.php
mircea_popescu: something that can go into eg https://tools.pingdom.com/
mircea_popescu: well, is this 2.7 s to first byte ? or total page load ?
ben_vulpes: .0003 ttfb in both cases
ben_vulpes: per time curl -H 'Host: vantucky' -s -w "Connect: %{time_connect} TTFB: %{time_starttransfer} Total time: %{time_total} \n" localhost:800/phpinfo.php -o /dev/null
mircea_popescu: ok so then, you don;'t have an apache problem.
mircea_popescu: is your mp-wp isntall depending on eg a theme you don't have referencing images that don't exist or w/e ?\
mircea_popescu: because that'd add a timeout
mircea_popescu: ah, lol. are you referencing the mp-wp as "localhost:800/whatever/index.php" ?
ben_vulpes: yeah :(
mircea_popescu: item doesn't work that way
mircea_popescu: it must know its own address ; either put it in normally or else i guess edit wp-settings.php to contain your nutty self-reference
ben_vulpes: oh fuckin gross
mircea_popescu: that's what's going on, it tries to find itself and waits for timeout.
ben_vulpes: standby one
ben_vulpes: emplaced, but 2.4s and .0003 ttfb
mircea_popescu: i don't believe it's either apache or mysql. i expect is unhappy interaction between your ad-hoc dns mapping and mp-wp.
mircea_popescu: !!up sashahsas
deedbot: sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: as in actually trying to talk to itself over http?
mircea_popescu: i don't even know that it knows what a port is or what to do with the colon.
ben_vulpes: well it successfully redirects me to the index and the admin login page now when using a consumer browser; not that that's much of an indicator that things aren't deeply fucked within
mircea_popescu: the whole story is whether it waits for a timeout somewhere.
sashahsas: Hey sorry, had a coworker come up and had to put my phone down.
mircea_popescu: !!rate sashahsas 1 receptionislut.
sashahsas: Its a pet peeve of mine, talking to someone and them looking at their phone.
sashahsas: So many people do it though unfortunately these days.
mircea_popescu: i don't hang out with them.
sashahsas: Some can navigate the entire city looking at a phone screen lol
mircea_popescu: so are you typing all this on a phone keyboard ?!
sashahsas: Cell
mircea_popescu: i admire your dedication to this craft.
mircea_popescu: i'm generally livid after trying three words.
sashahsas: The right keyboard helps a lot with predictive text
mircea_popescu: my text is impredictible.
sashahsas: 😀
mircea_popescu: sashahsas so what's the best palindrome you know ?
trinque: ben_vulpes: vantucky << I can see it
sashahsas: Hmm, that is an actual work? Racecar
mircea_popescu: sashahsas : a man, a plan, a canal : panama!
sashahsas: sashahsas wouldn't count
ben_vulpes: trinque: yeah but i doubt you see it in a reasonable timeframe
trinque: nah I mean the place
mircea_popescu: trinque is this some inside joke i'm missing ?
trinque: ben_vulpes lives in the john deere part of pacific nw
ben_vulpes: yeeeehaw
trinque: this is just the first time I encountered "vantucky"
mircea_popescu: sashahsas let's try it this way then : amanap : lanac-anal panama
ben_vulpes: omg where is the apache listen port configured asciilifeform
sashahsas: Holy crap
sashahsas: Anal panama lol
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes why don't you just put it in production and then futz with optimisation, like normal people ? do you not know anything about webdev ?
ben_vulpes: i am unsure as to how serious you are being.
mircea_popescu: sashahsas ok, ok, how about this -- amanap : lanac a nalp a nam a
ben_vulpes: ama nap, that sounds good right now
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i am being serious.
sashahsas: That hurts my head trying to see it
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: 2.7 seconds suxxxxx
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's a NALP not a plan, narf!
mircea_popescu: i mean a nalp not a nap.
ben_vulpes: but also not having .htaccess apparently sucks
ben_vulpes: narf narf narf
mircea_popescu: sashahsas we here at trilema terrorist republic specialize in headhurting & casse-tete chinois.
mircea_popescu: just look how well supplied ben_vulpes is!
sashahsas: I need to download a thesaurus or dictionary to understand that sentence I think
mircea_popescu: sashahsas you don't speak french ? it's how the frenchies say "puzzle".
mircea_popescu: "chinese head-breaker". this makes sense, to them.
sashahsas: Beautiful language but no never learned it. French girls always sound so sexy.
mircea_popescu: do they come there often ?
sashahsas: Nope, just heard them through media, TV, news and such.
mircea_popescu: possibly media girls sound sexy.
sashahsas: Do real ones not? Lol
mircea_popescu: i suppose it depends which.
mircea_popescu: the hot ones, most definitely.
sashahsas: There is also the Cajun style which is pretty interesting.
sashahsas: Creole
mircea_popescu: cooking, you mean ?
sashahsas: No, Louisiana had a french colony at some point I think.
sashahsas: It is some strange english/french hybrid.
mircea_popescu: well, it actually WAS a french colony. all of it.
mircea_popescu: then monroe bought it, hence "the louisiana purchase"
sashahsas: Oh, thats right, I completely forgot about that but the name is familiar.
ckang: !!up britknee
deedbot: britknee voiced for 30 minutes.
britknee: thx luv
mircea_popescu: !!pay britknee 0.02
britknee: wow that easy? you want my friends to? lol
mircea_popescu: sure lol
britknee: i dont know if i can get them on irccloud though is only thing
trinque: britknee: it says foob on your boob
britknee: lol it does
mircea_popescu: it's f00b n00b
britknee: is that # random or does it mean anything?
ben_vulpes: hanbot must have some special sauce in her mp-wp
mircea_popescu: britknee so what do you do for a living anyway ?
britknee: bum atm, not homeless but not in school or work
mircea_popescu: lol, is it fun ?
britknee: it is nice being able to do what i want every day
britknee: but being broke isn't so much
britknee: but i have my friends who would show you their tots !
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes lmao she smokes ya
britknee: i do not!
mircea_popescu: see, THAT is exactly typical and properly working.
mircea_popescu: britknee no i don't mean you, i mean hanbot.
britknee: o lol
ben_vulpes: ain't all about you sweetie
britknee: y not 😋 lol
mircea_popescu: speaking of friends, do you have any super talented cartoon artist friends ?
mircea_popescu: anyway ben_vulpes here's where you thank me profusely for having saved you dicking about with entirely nonbroken stacks for an alfternity.
britknee: most of my friends are pretty talentless, one can sign but the rest, nothing special i know of
britknee: sing*
mircea_popescu: britknee with friends like that no wonder you're broke!
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: thank you so very very much.
mircea_popescu: you're welcome!
britknee: they are all good ppl though who would do anything they could to help me or each other
britknee: that i appreciate
ben_vulpes: i am still flabbergasted that it takes apache 2.7 seconds to render what nginx can do with the fpm pool in a tenth of a second.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-04-12 06:49 ben_vulpes: hanbot danielpbarron: apache with mod_php is, sadly, much slower than the nginx setup we've had until now. however now we can move forward with getting your .htaccess files set up and uploads and such. i'm going to knock off for now but please let me know how i can support your mp-wp projects next.
mircea_popescu: it has nothing to do with apache ; let everyone who isn't hanbot fix their mp-wp
mircea_popescu: ideally by getting her genesis pressed once she puts it out.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: nginx can serve hanbots in .01s, not the .6 of apache
mircea_popescu: yaya. until there's some load on it./
ben_vulpes: you put those goalposts back
ben_vulpes: but i see i see.
mircea_popescu: heh. mkay, spherical chickens ftw.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes do you realise the 0.5 is measured through dns and all that ? did you do same with nginx ?
ben_vulpes: .126s without dns
trinque: somewhere a star printer screeches with the sound of titties.
trinque will get to these tomorrow, girls
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/ << and updated with the largest single day slutcrop yet!
mircea_popescu: !!up sashahsas
deedbot: sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!up britknee
deedbot: britknee voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: so, any great stories ?
britknee: i feel smarter having read all the stuff above but still have no clue what it means lol
ben_vulpes: awww shit reaction engines limited bezzled boeing and rolls-royce into pouring another pile of bezzlars into the sabre engine
mircea_popescu: say what ?
ben_vulpes: buncha british poofs have a magical ambient-air-breathing-theoretically-up-to-mach-5 rocket engine system
ben_vulpes: yeah, they did some really impressive work with fine pipe drawing for the intercooler, and some Black Fucking Magic to keep hell from freezing over
ben_vulpes: basic principle is to dump the heat from intake into the onboard lh2 supply, boil a bit off to turn the pumps, and then cut over to internal supplies once out of the atmosphere.
ben_vulpes secretly holds out hope for ssto
mircea_popescu: this magical heat exchanger getting air to -150 should be interesting.
ben_vulpes: why would the intake stream have to get that cold?
mircea_popescu: this is what they spec.
ben_vulpes: ah there it is
ben_vulpes: black magic, i tell you. cold-fusion grade bezzle.
ben_vulpes: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/EadTe/?raw=true << either star trek smoke and mirrors or the stuff of boyhood dreams (sabre anti freeze)
mircea_popescu: really, 3d printed thin nozzles ?
mircea_popescu: gimme a break.
ckang: cant get behind all this 3d printer fanboy stuff, its just not a good substrate with the current materials for anything you want to last somewhat longterm
ckang: granted im sure things are progressing, but its hard to outperform something from a billet of aluminum
ckang loves well machined aluminum part & high speed milling vids
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-19#1701034 <-- /me now wonders whether e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-19#1701034 could have been "illuminated" in any other way than through whipping. it is what it is, isn't it?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-19 18:25 mircea_popescu: are you aware i think your "formal" model is a piece of shit from paragraph one ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 01:31 mircea_popescu: spyked but why would it be difficult in that way ?
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796749 <-- that's probably my thing, I've been playing with it for the last two weeks or so, I have it in a loop grabbing feeds from republican blogs.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 04:24 mircea_popescu: and in other logs, "CL-Feed-Parser/0.0.00 (SBCL 1.4.5; Linux;"
asciilifeform: attn folx : node zoolag is back in service.
asciilifeform: aaaand a happy cosmonautics day ( http://www.loper-os.org/?p=854 rerun!11 ) to errybody.
asciilifeform: !!up zx2c4
deedbot: zx2c4 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: hello ?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: author of 'wireguard' ?
zx2c4: hello. mircea_popescu asked me to come here for two hours to field some questions about wireguard from you all. i'm not very familiar with this channel or the community in it, but i am happy to talk to whomever about wireguard. so let's start the timer now?
zx2c4: hi asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: it so happens that i have a few q:
zx2c4: sure
asciilifeform: zx2c4: how did you select the 'noise' protocol ?
zx2c4: it's small, minimal, has the flexibility to be exactly what i needed and nothing larger. makes conservative choices. fits into the security model i was aiming for with the implementation properties i was looking for. i was also involved with noise from very early on, so several concerns and needs i had with wireguard got factored into noise. and since noise is a very interesting framework, it's now receiving much needed academic attention in
zx2c4: proving it.
zx2c4: are you interested in learning about the security properties i had in mind when designing wireguard?
zx2c4: wireguard is supposed to be implementable using simple algorithms with as small of a state machine as possible, so that the code size and complexity is kept at a minimum. in otherwords, it aims to be easily auditable so that people can actually read it and feel confident that it doesnt have horrible vulnerabilities. with massive codebases and highly complex designs like openvpn or ipsec, this obviously isnt possible. so with wireguard i was trying
zx2c4: to make something that would make this all possible
zx2c4: then on top of that i wanted a few nice properties:
zx2c4: - silent to unauthorized packets. if you dont know there's a wireguard endpoint there and don't have credentials to talk to it, you can't get it to respond to anything. so, you cant scan for endpoints. this makes it a good thing to put on the outer edge of your network.
zx2c4: - no parsers. fixed length fields only.
zx2c4: - minimal state machine, as mentioned above, which means 1-RTT: if something goes wrong with a message being dropped, the solution is always to just "start over the protocol", since it's only 1-RTT. this saves amazing amounts of complexity
zx2c4: - no dynamic memory allocation. all the memory used by wireguard should be allocated at configuration time, not in response to incoming packets.
zx2c4: - denial of service resistance. as mentioned, you should be able to put this on the outer edge of a network
asciilifeform: 'silent to unauthorized packets' is a good thing, and some of the folx here, incl. asciilifeform , are working on systems with this property (e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2015-01-07#967274 )
a111: Logged on 2015-01-07 01:22 asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
asciilifeform: hence the interest in zx2c4's published item
zx2c4: indeed. i guess you could call the property 'stealthiness'
zx2c4: - extremely simple configuration interface. short base64 25519 pubkeys you can paste around through any means. simple config files. everything happens on the interface level.
zx2c4: - ease of system administration. since its interface-based, things like iptables and whatnot work as you'd expect.
asciilifeform: no-dynamic-allocation is also a Good Thing, for instance in my FFA crypto lib ( http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 ) this property exists
zx2c4: asciilifeform: oh cool. i havent seen this ill take a look
asciilifeform: zx2c4: don't go away yet plz. i'd like to ask a few q re your crypto design
zx2c4: - the whole cryptokey routing table thing is very important for making things extremely simple. it pairs the identity of a public key with the ip address someone is allowed to be inside the tunnel. no fancy security marks or whatever from ipsec bloat
zx2c4: asciilifeform: i agreed to stick around for 2 hours. worry not. :P
asciilifeform: zx2c4: why did you select diffie-hellman ? ( vs e.g. rsa )
zx2c4: ive got some more design properties to enumerate if you'd like, but i can answer your direct questions too
asciilifeform: zx2c4: carry on, but after that let's come back to DH
zx2c4: KEMs like RSA are more complicated to implement in as few round trips as DH-based protocols
zx2c4: - wireguard isn't chatty. when you're not sending traffic, it shuts up and you cant tell its there
asciilifeform: how's that ? you can encipher a symmetric key in an rsagram , and that's 1 packet. then 1 packet back to ack receipt. neh ?
zx2c4: - wireguard doesnt expose any state to the administrator. there's either an interface or there isnt. theres no concept of "connection". with a very simple timer state machine, we're able to completely hide all details from the sender side
zx2c4: so for the handshake we want these properties in 1-RTT:
asciilifeform: ( i grasp the connectionless scheme , having prototyped a similar item )
zx2c4: - authentication in the first message, so that unauthenticated packets arent replied to, hence ensuring things are stealthy
zx2c4: - forward secrecy
zx2c4: - [limited/weak] identity hiding
zx2c4: - key compromise impersonation resistance
asciilifeform: expland please re the latter
asciilifeform: *expand
zx2c4: - key secrecy resilience when 2 of 4 keys, one from each side, are compromised (out of static initiator, static responder, ephemeral initiator, ephemeral responder)
zx2c4: key compromise impersonation is what happens when somebody steals your private key, and then can impersonate anybody else _to_ you
asciilifeform: under what circumstances would 2 / 4 be compromised, but not 4 / 4 ?
zx2c4: for example, when your static longterm keys are compromised, but the ephemeral keys have not been compromised, since they're erased/renewed every 2 minutes
zx2c4: or, conversely,
zx2c4: when the RNG is backdoored, the ephemerals are compromised, but not necessarily the statics
zx2c4: or some combination of the above
asciilifeform: since you mentioned rng : what source of rng does your system use in a typical configuration ?
zx2c4: same source as /dev/urandom
asciilifeform: urandom ?!
zx2c4: in otherwords, the kernel's built-in RNG
zx2c4: (i've got a project going on right now to rewrite that actually)
zx2c4: yes, csprng
zx2c4: which can take entropy from trngs bla bla
asciilifeform: at any rate, we can come back to this piece
asciilifeform: let's return to DH
zx2c4: sure
zx2c4: another advantage of DH over RSA is that ECDH allows for really short and sweet keys
zx2c4: with relatively simple implementations
asciilifeform: !!up zx2c4
deedbot: zx2c4 voiced for 30 minutes.
zx2c4: our two x25519 C implementations (32bit and 64bit) are actually generated by theorem proving software, so that we're sure they dont contain any errors
asciilifeform: zx2c4: which proving system did you use ?
zx2c4: the 64bit one comes from HACL*
zx2c4: the 32bit one comes from fiat-crypto
zx2c4: fiat-crypto also has a 64bit one, but the HACL* one was faster
zx2c4: HACL* uses F*
zx2c4: fiat-crypto uses Coq
asciilifeform: let's posit that the proving system itself contains no errors. what classes of error do these systems claim to exclude ?
zx2c4: things like integer overflow, or general arithmetic errors
zx2c4: carry bugs
zx2c4: also, constant time
asciilifeform: how is the latter guaranteed ?
asciilifeform: i.e. , if i disasm your .o , will i see 0 conditional jumps ?
zx2c4: by only using a limited subset of constructs which are known to be constant time
zx2c4: yes, there are no conditional jumps
asciilifeform: anywhere ? or in particular routines ?
zx2c4: our discussion of HACL* and fiat-crypto pertains to the two C implementations of x25519
zx2c4: ill show you the code
zx2c4: it looks... quite strange
zx2c4: since its machine generated
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, how big is the typical built binary for this library ? ( say, on amd64 )
asciilifeform: if i want to hand-audit it, say.
zx2c4: you mean if you just wanted to hand audit the .o that comes out of this?
asciilifeform: correct
zx2c4: not very big at all
zx2c4: i can check for you one sec
asciilifeform: btw zx2c4 , i must regret to inform you that the code you linked, is in fact NOT constant-time on several common architectures, because it makes use of machine MUL instruction ( gcc will compile a nonconstant-operanded '*' to e.g. IMUL on x86 )
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 04:22 asciilifeform: mod6: i will share my current hypothesis : all current intels have MUL leakage
asciilifeform: ppc, arm7, older intels ( e.g. 486, celeron ), and possibly new intels , all have variant-timed IMUL
asciilifeform: 41 kB, notbad
trinque: wtf?
zx2c4: haha deedbot doesnt like utf8 URLs
zx2c4: found a vuln!
zx2c4: does that entitle me to deedbot btc?
trinque: mmnope.
shinohai: !~weather
jhvh1: stormy with a chance of packeting
zx2c4: alas
asciilifeform: zx2c4: phf has been fiddling with the thing's uniturd processing of late; prolly introduced bug
trinque: utf8 works just fine
trinque: asciilifeform: phf has been fiddling with deedbot?
asciilifeform: aaa lol nm
zx2c4: asciilifeform: i haven't been able to observe any non-constant time multiplications on intel in that code
zx2c4: if you've found an architecture attack though, please do publicise it. that sounds like it could be some really great security attack work.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: to observe it, you will have to hand-emplace rdtsc around it , and run on properly doctored inputs
asciilifeform: zx2c4: this particular architectural sadness is not my discovery
asciilifeform: it has been common knowledge for some years
asciilifeform: discussed, for instance, in https://bearssl.org/ctmul.html
asciilifeform: ( complete with list of known-to-be-sad chips )
zx2c4: looks like intel is basically fine?
zx2c4: i dont own any via 2000 hardware to test on
asciilifeform: zx2c4: most of the currently-sold intels are ok re : imul. arm, however, is not
zx2c4: looks like 7T and 9T have issues. nice chart
zx2c4: if you're interested in crypto primitives in wireguard in general, i can give you an overview of our implementations. the hacl and fiat code is not the only code we have in there
asciilifeform: zx2c4: i've spent the past ~2yrs writing a properly constant-time arithmetic lib. it is being slowly published. ( see earlier link to my www )
asciilifeform: but i have a somewhat different approach, which i call 'fits in head'
zx2c4: oh?
asciilifeform: !#s fits in head
asciilifeform: ( or see the ffa article series, http://www.loper-os.org/?cat=49 , currently on sabbatical but due to resume after i come back from upcoming biznistrip )
asciilifeform: but let's come back to your product, zx2c4 :
zx2c4: project*
asciilifeform: project
asciilifeform: how did you settle on the use of bernsteinian cryptoprimitives ( e.g. chacha ) ?
zx2c4: chachapoly is well understood and is fast on nearly all hardware
zx2c4: its also easy to implement and simple
zx2c4: aes is also well understood, but is neither easy to implement, simple, nor fast on all hardware
asciilifeform: zx2c4: does it bother you that no proof of strength for any symmetric cipher other than otp (e.g. aes, chacha, etc ) exists ?
zx2c4: not anymore than other things in cryptography worry me
asciilifeform: ( i.e. a reduction to np-hard or for that matter ANY particular complexity class )
zx2c4: things like RSA boil down to number theory problems. but that's in a sense scarier than the set of problems that good block ciphers tend to boil down to. because it means that those primitives have lots of _structure_, and generally structure is something that can be exploited. just look at all the amazing and fantastic attacks on things with structure. so just boiling down to a [currently considered] "hard problem" doesn't provide as much solace
zx2c4: as you'd hope
asciilifeform: sadly enough, there is not, as of my last look, a proof that rsa reduces to hardness-of-Factoring
asciilifeform: so it suffers from similar problem.
zx2c4: but even hardness of factoring... how hard is this actually? what number theoretic advances are right around the corner?
zx2c4: so anyway, im less concerned about symmetric cryptography than other things
asciilifeform: when i ask for 'reduces to nphard', obviously i cannot mean 'factoring', because its hardness is not proven
asciilifeform: conceivably factoring is in P.
zx2c4: seems like there are many places and interesting ways to optimize at this point. lots of neat creative work coming out. but that with aes and whatnot, we're in a pretty good place in terms of symmetric crypto
asciilifeform: several yrs ago i went in search of ~any~ problem that can be shown to have a ~nphard average case~ . and found none.
zx2c4: shape packing?
asciilifeform: afaik no proof of hard-average-case exists for it
zx2c4: interesting
asciilifeform: or for anything else.
asciilifeform: it's a 1) open problem 2) afaik nobody is publicly working on
zx2c4: are you skeptical of djb primitives? wondering with what motivation came that question?
asciilifeform: i am skeptical of all symmetric ciphers and hashes, given as there exists no scientific basis for considering any of them to be actually strong.
asciilifeform: but of djb's in particular, their sudden popularity in past few yrs also has no satisfying explanation imho.
zx2c4: theyre simple and fast on all hardware, and he came up with an api for using them that many developers like to use (the nacl stuff)
zx2c4: i'm pretty sure there's no conspiracy
asciilifeform: rc4 was also 'simple and fast'...
asciilifeform: and rot13 even faster
asciilifeform: !!up zx2c4
deedbot: zx2c4 voiced for 30 minutes.
zx2c4: i'd be surprised to see all 20 rounds of chacha broken
asciilifeform: but to move on from this item : zx2c4 how did you select 'blake2' hashing system ?
zx2c4: similar criteria - well understood, simple to implement, fast on nearly all hardware
zx2c4: its core is basically chacha ;-)
asciilifeform: md5 was also fast and simple...
zx2c4: you know hmac-md5 still isnt broken
zx2c4: (noise uses blake with hkdf, which internally uses hmac)
zx2c4: blake is also faster than md5 which is nice
zx2c4: but anyway, the world has learned quite a bit since md5
zx2c4: blake2 came from blake which went through the sha3 contest as a finalist
zx2c4: so it's received quite a bit of scrutiny
asciilifeform: i don't see 'not publicly smashed to bits of just yet' as a proof of strength, given as it is true of literally every system ever devised, until the moment of public breakage
zx2c4: i dont think hmac-md5 is anywhere near broken, actually.
zx2c4: not saying anyone should use it but
zx2c4: its in a much better place than just raw md5
asciilifeform: since mentioned scrutiny : on www of 'wireguard', there is mention of 'reviewed by cryptographers' . may i ask, who reviewed ?
asciilifeform: are the reviews published somewhere ?
zx2c4: the paper was peer reviewed for NDSS'17
asciilifeform: is it on www ?
asciilifeform: and the reviews themselves, also ?
zx2c4: yea usually there's lots of information on the conference and board and whatnot
asciilifeform: happen to have a link handy ?
zx2c4: i dont think they post the reviews? except that it was "accepted" to the conference
asciilifeform: i'm curious, for instance, whether any of the cryptographers observed that the arithmetical routines behind your ecc are not in fact constant time on e.g. arm.
zx2c4: then in the acknowledgement of the paper, a few others arementioned who reviewed it while it was being written
asciilifeform: zx2c4: so it is not possible currently for me to learn , which cryptographers reviewed, and what they had said ?
zx2c4: and then since several other colleagues and cryptographers have reviewed the system favorably
asciilifeform: any possibility to see who ?
zx2c4: i havent compiled a list of Name+WrittenReview. maybe i should do that
zx2c4: seems like lots of things these days have testimonials
asciilifeform: i'm less interested in 'testimonials', and more in re criticisms
zx2c4: ahh
mircea_popescu: o hey there zx2c4
asciilifeform: but it so happens that i in particular do not think much of the work of current 'pro cryptographers'.
mircea_popescu: !!key zx2c4
deedbot: Not registered.
zx2c4: hello mircea_popescu
zx2c4: we've been going at it for a while here
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 do me a favour and !!register your key
zx2c4: i tried registering my key privately to deedbot but it didnt respond
zx2c4: ill try it in public here instead
mircea_popescu: please do
asciilifeform: zx2c4: i'ma leave the rest of the session to mircea_popescu , owner of this chan, and my co-author in e.g. the FUCKGOATS auditable trng, https://archive.is/CGQkR )
mircea_popescu: did you two come to blows ?
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: no, thought it was quite productive actually
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol notyet, i did the 'civilized' thing as you suggested.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 the tls fails i bet.
zx2c4: asciilifeform: oh, okay. im happy to keep going though. and if you want to be uncivilized, ill gladly accept any harshness you want to throw my way. i dont scare easilyt
deedbot: AB9942E6D4A4CFC3412620A749FC7012A5DE03AE registered as zx2c4.
mircea_popescu: !!rate zx2c4 1 j. a. donenfeld, wireguard guy.
mircea_popescu: !!pay zx2c4 1
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 you understand how the logs work btw ?
zx2c4: no, not at all. im also not quite sure what to do with these pgp encrypted blobs i cant decrypt
asciilifeform: zx2c4: they're for mircea_popescu to decrypt; it makes the command go.
zx2c4: oh, gotcha
mircea_popescu: they are not for you ; they are for me. deedbot works an otp verification model -- you tell it to do whatever youwant, it asks you to prove you own the key, if you do it does it.
zx2c4: makes more sense
asciilifeform: zx2c4: he just threw a whole bitcoin into your piggy.
zx2c4: horrah! thanks
asciilifeform: zx2c4: which you can withdraw using deedbot at your leisure
mircea_popescu: now let's look at the logs :
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:32 mircea_popescu: now let's look at the logs :
mircea_popescu: you can click the link and see a website-based story of the log ; the bot also reads the line referenced in conversation.
zx2c4: if you guys wind up using wireguard for part of your infra and want to support wireguard for a year, i'm always looking for large donations, etc. not sure if that's what deedbot is for exactly but that would be quite the nice deed
mircea_popescu: this is a lot more than meets the eye ; because it actually restructures conversations into a tree. things here have a depth not encountered anywhere else.
zx2c4: interesting
mircea_popescu: the deed in deedbot comes from the republican system for registration of deeds. think of it as your county clerk, you can go to him to register your wedding or business or w/e.
zx2c4: O_o
zx2c4: neat
mircea_popescu: http://deedbot.org/ << on deedbot you can register any arbitrary item ; it keeps a record that indeed your signature did so ; and it marks the time, through inclusion in the bitcoin blockchain
mircea_popescu: so it permits indefeasible record of deeds ; something the fiat sovereigns have not yet managed.
zx2c4: !!withdraw 1 1ASnTs4UjXKR8tHnLi9yG42n42hbFYV2um
zx2c4: lets see if that works
zx2c4: im guessing deedbot will send me a otp now
zx2c4: voila
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 mind that transfers are not instantaneous.
mircea_popescu: so it may need a few.
mircea_popescu: there's also !!balance and !!ledger, and besides
zx2c4: !!v 613368773AD31E2D4F1A68F8F740BE5AE18F5C46924FB8C9C3CC2084E52C6D4D
mircea_popescu: !!rate ckang 2 diplomatic agent o.O
zx2c4: i wonder if that verification worked i just posted
mircea_popescu: i think if you have not enough in your wallet it drops it silently ; and if the payment's not processed yet you might have nothing in your wallet yet.
zx2c4: interesting
zx2c4: well, feel free to keep filling up my wallet, say, with thousands of coins O_o
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796973 << ahaha jesus christ check him out, he gets it natively!
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 08:31 ckang: cant get behind all this 3d printer fanboy stuff, its just not a good substrate with the current materials for anything you want to last somewhat longterm
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796974 << yes dood, sintering is a joak in terms of material strength and high performance generally.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 08:33 ckang: granted im sure things are progressing, but its hard to outperform something from a billet of aluminum
mircea_popescu: speaking of which and ben_vulpes boyhood dreams, ssto and so on : i dreamt last night that someone actually managed to create that true wunderwaffen material, the composite/ceramic with higher tensile strength than steel, but negligible caloric conductivity. making some iiiincredible jet engines.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796976 << you know me. he doesn't know you. this makes all the difference in the world -- i can whip my slavegirls into shape because they ~love me~. people without this benefit are stuck going at snail speed, which is why "education" in the unsexualized way it's implemented publicly does not work. it couldn't fucking work.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 09:38 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-19#1701034 <-- /me now wonders whether e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-19#1701034 could have been "illuminated" in any other way than through whipping. it is what it is, isn't it?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 09:42 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796749 <-- that's probably my thing, I've been playing with it for the last two weeks or so, I have it in a loop grabbing feeds from republican blogs.
asciilifeform has 1 more q for zx2c4 , after mircea_popescu finishes
zx2c4: well im still around here for another half hour or so, so feel free to lob anything more at me
zx2c4: oh good, okay
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by all means, go ahead.
mircea_popescu: i have to read your previous convo.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: are you the author of 'noise' protocol ?
asciilifeform: ( co-author ? )
asciilifeform: the q , then : why does 'noise' include a null-cipher mode ?
zx2c4: Noise is from Trevor Perrin. I've been very involved in contributing to the project though (i mentioned at the end of the specification)
zx2c4: a null cipher mode? it doesnt...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796991 << let me ask you this then : why do you send an encrypted empty message when heartbeat fails ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 15:28 zx2c4: sure
mircea_popescu: alf trying to poach my question :D
asciilifeform: zx2c4: do i misread ? because in the spec, 'No confidentiality. This payload is sent in cleartext.' ( http://www.noiseprotocol.org/noise.html#message-format section 7.4 )
asciilifeform: seems that it does.
zx2c4: oh, that's not quite what that's about
zx2c4: noise defines several different handshakes
zx2c4: wireguard uses Noise_IKpsk2
zx2c4: which is 1-RTT
zx2c4: but there are other noise handshakes
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797002 << this is fucking grand. i love reading through this list, it's in the vein of "oh my god, check that out, he natively gets it!"
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 15:36 zx2c4: - minimal state machine, as mentioned above, which means 1-RTT: if something goes wrong with a message being dropped, the solution is always to just "start over the protocol", since it's only 1-RTT. this saves amazing amounts of complexity
zx2c4: 0-RTT, 1-RTT, 2-RTT, and so forth
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 don't break up your sentences in multi lines, we read everything anyway.
zx2c4: oh, okay
asciilifeform: zx2c4: granted, but it would appear that the orig spec of 'noise' permits null-ciphering, just like the nsa-authored ssl/tls.
asciilifeform: this does not bother you ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-11 16:11 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: picture if the selector on kalash had a 'fires backwards' position.
zx2c4: noise defines several different handshakes. wireguard uses Noise_IKpsk2, which is 1-RTT. But there are other noise handshakes, some of which are 0-RTT, 1-RTT, 2-RTT, 1.5-RTT, and so forth. each handshake message can optionally contain a payload -- to contain things like, say, certificates or other data. the question is at which stage of the handshake do you use the payload parameter? if you do it too early in some, you get zero confidentiality. so
zx2c4: this is spelled out explicitly in the section you mentiond
zx2c4: but there's certainly not any "null-ciphering" and this is only a misunderstanding of what the specification says
asciilifeform: i understand the bare fact, zx2c4 . my question is, why do you think the protocol author permitted an unsecured mode as a valid mode of operation ?
asciilifeform: what's the justification, for permitting it at all
asciilifeform: !!up zx2c4
deedbot: zx2c4 voiced for 30 minutes.
zx2c4: its not an "unsecured mode" because this isnt a "mode"
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 you can voice yourself (permanently) by saying !!up to deedbot ; saves us the trouble.
asciilifeform: it appears to be a valid state of the state machine. else why would it be mentioned in the spec.
zx2c4: !!up
zx2c4: !!v CFFE7CEB6795F523B137AA9A9B0C8A20024FF0EED10EEF7C649C81591CF9DDE1
deedbot: You are now voiced in #trilema
asciilifeform: zx2c4: generally you will say !!up to deedbot in pm
asciilifeform: ( when initially connected to fleanode )
zx2c4: sorry, new here ;-)
mircea_popescu: dun worry.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems to me the case to be, that they defined a matrix, and then implemented all the cells, and fuck you if you pick a dumb cell.
zx2c4: there are valid use cases of sending information in the clear in the payload parameter. for example, perhaps you want to use it to advertise which aspects of the protocol are valid for subsequent messages. or you want to send a certificate along to authenticate yourself. the payload parameter certainly shouldnt be confused with transport messages, which are what are allowed after the handshake completes
mircea_popescu: the ready argument for doing it this way is simplicity.
zx2c4: this is not the case of the "null mode" in IPsec, which is obviously a complete disaster with no good justification
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what i see is, the cell is there, but there is no indication that it is connected , as it ought to be, to red lights, siren, and dropping of reactor moderator rods
mircea_popescu: they saved on the loc.
zx2c4: its not about LoC either.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 for the public record, make the "this is not the case" distinction plain.
mircea_popescu: how is it not the same thing ?
zx2c4: because IPsec's null cipher mode is for transport data. what youre asking about with 7.4 is the payload parameter of the handshake messages
zx2c4: one thing to keep in mind is that Noise isn't a single ready-made protocol for every application designer to take. its instead a protocol framework for protocol designers to use. knowing explicitly what the payload param gives you in each message is really important, so that you dont screw up and put your stuff somewhere it shouldnt be. there are legitimate protocol use cases for using the payload parameter early on during the handshake. its
zx2c4: important to then know what level of confidentiality you get there
mircea_popescu: so in no case a dizzy operator could naively set up noise 7.4 so as to send his payloads in plaintext.
mircea_popescu: this is principally enforced by dizzy operators not touching the framework in the first place, but only given implementations of it.
zx2c4: pretty unlikely that somebody would design a protocol inadvertently that way
zx2c4: which is why trevor explicitly spells it out
mircea_popescu: ok, now to my bit : poach
zx2c4: i remember asking for this on the mailing list at some point
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796991 << let me ask you this then : why do you send an encrypted empty message when heartbeat fails ?
asciilifeform: ( alternatively, how many bits do i need to flip in an otherwise correctly configured box, to set a 'noise' cipherer, into null mode ? )
zx2c4: also, btw, when you're not using the payload parameter in a message, it's just set to empty, because the authentication tag used by it is still important for the protocol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he can't answer that, because it'd be implementation dependant.
asciilifeform: fair'nuff
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 the fundamental problem with "set to empty" is that ciphers can be and many are vulnerable to this, as a particular case of "known plaintext"
zx2c4: empty message when heartbeat fails? huh?
mircea_popescu: let me quote your exact line.
mircea_popescu: "If a packet has been received from a given peer, but we have not sent one back to the given peer in KEEPALIVE ms, we send an empty packet." <<
zx2c4: oh. good question
mircea_popescu: i can't use the trilema-style url-reference (here's an example : http://trilema.com/2018/boboban/#selection-47.0-47.10 ) because you don't have implemented. but it's from the /protocol page
zx2c4: every time i send you something, i expect to hear back from you. if i dont hear back from you, then something bad has happened,and i should start over with a new handshake. my way of hearing back to you might be in the natural sense -- i send a TCP SYN, you send me back a TCP ACK -- or it might be the case that you actually just have nothing to send back to me. you got my message just fine, but really just cant think of anything to say back to me.
zx2c4: in this case, its important that you send me a keepalive, so that i know you at least got it. however, these keepalives arent persistent. if subsequently, i have nothing more to say to you, then we both go silent and dont say anything.
mircea_popescu: this far we agree.
mircea_popescu: now, why is the thing you send an empty message ?
zx2c4: because all i need is the valid authtag/nonce. i dont have any actual content to put in there
zx2c4: (usually said messages contain an IP packet)
mircea_popescu: so it is not "empty" in the sense of "" ; it is empty in the sense of the payload being null, but the actual message is in fact a nonce and some tags anyway.
zx2c4: yea. the plaintext is empty. but the ciphertext is not, since it's authenticated
zx2c4: in otherwords, the empty plaintext is still a valid value to be authenticated-encrypted
mircea_popescu: can you off the top of your head give me a dummy example of such ?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: it would appear that you have a known-plaintext though
asciilifeform: in such a message
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform depends on how he makes the nonce.
zx2c4: im not seeing the vulnerability youre speaking about
zx2c4: normally when you encrypt a message of 32 bytes, you get 32 bytes of cipher text + 16 bytes of authentication tag
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 here's a simple alternative to consider : would you agree the assemblage would be more secure if instead of sending a null payload you sent a random string ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu do you have a link to the famous penguin handy ?
zx2c4: when you encrypt a message of 0 bytes, you get 0 bytes of ciphertext + 16 bytes of authentication tag
mircea_popescu: and if i encrypt 8 bytes, what do i get ?
zx2c4: no, i dont think sending a random string would make it more secure
zx2c4: normally 8+16 (though wireguard pads to nearest 16)
mircea_popescu: and if my slut eve in the other room is listening in, she can distinguish the case where i sent 0 from the case where i sent 8 ?
zx2c4: thats right. the padding only happens in multiples of 16
mircea_popescu: so wouldn't it make sense for me to send 8 whether i have anything to say or not ?
zx2c4: so you can do traffic analysis on 16 byte chunks
zx2c4: why?
mircea_popescu: so that eve can't distinguish silent keepalive from actual convo ?
zx2c4: what do you get by knowing from inference that it's a keepalive?
zx2c4: what is the attack here?
mircea_popescu: why am i held to explain how a protocol breach can be elevated to arbitrary height ? the attracker FIND SOMETHING
zx2c4: there _are_ attacks, on say voice compression algorithms, which can gather some information from having precise sizes alone, which is why things are padded to nearest 16. but i dont see what would be gathered by what youre suggesting
asciilifeform: zx2c4: speaking in general of symmetric ciphers -- a known-plaintext instance anywhere in the stream, or even a means of narrowing down possible plaintext, makes for considerably cheaper break
mircea_popescu: well, for instance, if i know six nodes in your network and know asciilifeform uses at most two, and i see those are not transmitting, i know he's asleep and send the titassassins.
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: an attacker can also distinguish between a length 15 message and a length 31 message. i still maintain this doesnt give an attacker anything useful
mircea_popescu: that may be, but we're discussing the 0 case.
mircea_popescu: because i can turn a 31 message into two 15 messages or back ; but i can't turn 0 messages into anything else.
zx2c4: you might be misunderstanding. when nothing is being sent at all, keepalives arent sent. simply no packets are sent
mircea_popescu: this is the problem : you introduce a categorical breach with this system.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 suppose he is sending keepalives, what.
zx2c4: then thoes keepalives are in response to some message he received
asciilifeform: zx2c4: the distinguishability of keepalives also makes it considerably easier to carry out timing attack on your nonconstanttime ecc engine
mircea_popescu: in any case, cryptography comes in two sorts : sort a), known here as "this must be secure, it's so confusing to me", and sort b). the moment you say "i can't see what this gives attacker" you force-shove yourself in group a. it's not your business to know the attacker, that's the whole fundamental philosophy of ciphering, that you do not need to know the attacker.
asciilifeform: because i can tell when a particular message has been received and ack'd
zx2c4: the ecc is constant time. but anyway the transport layer doesnt use any ecc
zx2c4: transport layer is all symmetric crypto
asciilifeform: it is demonstrably not constant time, on several popular machines, we went over this
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 is this constant time ecc implementation on display somewhere btw ? i don't think i ever saw one before.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see log
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: see logs
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: padded protocols infoleak in multiples of the padding. you get to see if a given packet elicited a 0 reply, a 16 reply, a 32 reply, a 48 reply, and so forth
zx2c4: this may indeed be too large of an infoleak and you'd prefer a different padding scheme like always filling the entire MTU
zx2c4: (that way you give nothing, except your mtu)
mircea_popescu: yes, that's how wer dop it. do you happen to be familiar with diana coman's work on the ada impl of rsa/keccak etc >?
zx2c4 shakes head no
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point here isn't that padded protocols infoleak in multiples of the paddiong., the point is that 0 is a special case invariant, and yhou can never leak a multiple of 0 safely. because, again, a message of arbitrary length n can be presented as m messages of length k ; but 0 messages can never carry anything.
mircea_popescu: http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/12/07/introducing-eucrypt/ << it uses the v system ; are you familiar with v ?
zx2c4: why do you think zero is a special case?
zx2c4: i havent seen v
zx2c4: what is it?
mircea_popescu: one thing at a time : if an attacker observes a stream of n messages of lengths != 0, there is nothing he can infer : maybe they're part of one message, or maybe they're not, or maybe they don't even say anything.
mircea_popescu: if however he observes a stream of n messages of length = 0, he can infer nothing was said.
zx2c4: with many TCP protocols you can infer what's behind it based on the length
mircea_popescu: this reduces your strength, like it or not, because ~attacker inferred something~. that's what strength is, "attacker doesn't infer". see the history of the concept of "ban" and hopw turning bamburismus'd.
zx2c4: i suppose your point is that you _could_ choose to obscure the lengths of the messages youre sending back? whereas with zero that isnt a possibility?
mircea_popescu: in that formulation, sure.
zx2c4: thats an interesting consideration
mircea_popescu: the problem is fundamental, though. the same EXACT thinking informs this problem as informs the earlier discussion with asciilifeform over null ciphers.
mircea_popescu: you have to get it in your head, that 0 is an invariant, and permitting it is always dangerous, because it's not "just another number".
mircea_popescu: and saying "multiples of k : 0, 8, 16" is NOT an enumeration of "similar things". 0 is dissimilar to everything else.
mircea_popescu: anyway, as to the other one : v is the republican... well many things, but also works as a versioning system. here's a pretty picture to help the notion along : http://btcbase.org/patches << you can select from the drop menu to the left, see vaqrious trees extant. you can click on any item to see the patch it represents.
mircea_popescu: sheit. phf what happened to clickable patchgraph!!1
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it shows up here
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc you need a svg-capable wwwtron
mircea_popescu: ah my browser is not willing. cool. love ya phf !
zx2c4: fancy
zx2c4: you guys have invented lots of things here
asciilifeform: zx2c4: this isn't v per se tho, it is a graphical viewer for same
asciilifeform: v per se is pretty simple
asciilifeform: cascadianhacker.com/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system << likbez
mircea_popescu: the idea with it is that patches must be a) clearly assigned to a responsible key and b) well read. actually, not putatively a la ers's trillion dead fish eyes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did we ever establish why he wrote the thing in c ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: zx2c4's thing ? nope, notyet
zx2c4: it's written in C because its in the linux kernel, which is written in C
zx2c4: kernel for performance and integration reasons
mircea_popescu: that's a perl impl of a v tool by mod6 ; everyone is invited to make their own v tools.
zx2c4: however
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 you ever used ada ?
zx2c4: we've also got implementations in Rust and Go
zx2c4: that are userspace based
asciilifeform: zx2c4, mircea_popescu : it is quite trivial to build a kernel mod with gnat
asciilifeform: ( iirc i posted a cookbook re same, while back )
mircea_popescu: that was my next answer, yes.
zx2c4: ada kernel modules? cool
asciilifeform: ( it is however presently unclear to me why the entire ciphrator has to live in kernelspace. granted the packet-thrower perhaps must. but why whole thing. )
mircea_popescu: could you guess, zx2c4 , why we would favour ada for finnicy work such as crypto libs ?
zx2c4: unlikely that'd make it upstream if i did wireguard that way, but neat that that's possible
zx2c4: i dont have enough exposure to ada to say for certain. how come?
mircea_popescu: and could you guess WHY it wouldn't make it upstream ? because ada object-links with c object code np.
mircea_popescu: ima let alf explain why ada.
zx2c4: linus has never been so happy about other languages in the kernel. for example, he rejected a C++ layer many years ago
asciilifeform: i'ma cheat and cite my own article, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913 : '... in a heavily-restricted subset of the Ada programming language — the only currently-existing nonproprietary statically-compiled language which permits fully bounds-checked, pointerolade-free code and practically-auditable binaries. We will be using GNAT, which relies on the GCC backend.'
asciilifeform: and add to this, that it has an actual paper standard, and minimal 'implementation-defined' rubbish (tho sadly not zero)
zx2c4: cool
asciilifeform: and doesn't require a multi-MB runtime.
zx2c4: sounds great
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 the good news is that i am now finally in a position to explain what EXACTLY is meant by "terrorist" : that feeling in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797417 when shit keeps coming and coming and coming up. what is it, if not spiritual terror ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 17:20 zx2c4: you guys have invented lots of things here
zx2c4: performance is good?
asciilifeform: there is absolutely no justification for the continued use of c, aka overflowlang, aka heapabuselang, since... oh, 1985.
mircea_popescu: depends. performance on ACTUAL constanttime items is not so good.
mircea_popescu: but that's related to how they can't even exist in c.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: performance is difficult to compare; if you remove various safeguards, you get ~same binary as equiv c proggy would have produced on same ver of gcc.
asciilifeform: ( gnat , the ada compiler, is based on ordinary gcc )
zx2c4: so most checking is runtime instead of compile time then?
mircea_popescu: actually, most crap is not even permitted. see all the pragmas.
asciilifeform: if you switch the runtime checks on, you get a ~50% speed penalty in practice, vs 'naked c'
asciilifeform: zx2c4: there is some quite 'fascist' compile-time checking. most noobs to the lang, spend a week or so getting their proggy to even build.
zx2c4: hah i like that
zx2c4: ill give ada a look. ive long heard about it but never dived in
zx2c4: i need to head out for a bit now
asciilifeform: the use of pointers, for instance, is discouraged, and their migration between scopes is prohibited
zx2c4: but ill idle in here for a while and will be back in several hours mostlikely
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 and the good news is, linus permitted ada modules before.
zx2c4: ooo scoped pointers. thats nice
zx2c4: alright, ttyl guys
asciilifeform: zx2c4: you can come back any time, you have voice now.
asciilifeform: laters.
zx2c4: :)
zx2c4: slater
mircea_popescu: these logs are getting ever huger.
ckang: hey nice glad to see zx2c4 made it in
mircea_popescu: word. you're building quite the diplomatic reputation for yourself, you know that ?
ckang: lol i try and connect people ;)
ckang: everything yall spoke about is way over my head
ckang: still trying to soak it in
mircea_popescu: anyway, guy got a bitcoin, meaning he can put however many more hours into the thing you're using, so wins all around.
ben_vulpes: well they are a far cry from the mango gelato of mircea_popescu's haremfactory but goshdarn these alfajores are magical with coffee in the morning
ckang: whats your opinion on it, as it stands currently?
ckang: from a security perspective
mircea_popescu: ckang too soon to say.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you should see the britt chocolate covered macadamia nuts.
ben_vulpes: sounds tasty
ben_vulpes: i have been seduced into liking sugary delights!
mircea_popescu: hey, i didn't think i even liked girls, as a 14yo. people get strange ideas in their heads.
ben_vulpes: (and it doesn't even have any chocolate...)
mircea_popescu: they have chocolate alfajors tho, is yours just ddl ?
ben_vulpes: experiments from the kitchen, im sure more variants with chocolate will appear as soon as i mention the idea
mircea_popescu: generally the alfajor as a commercial item is two wafers, ddl in betrween, whole dipped in hard chocolate.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: the .htaccess files included with/generated by mpwp include the `Allow` incantation, which is not a thing in apache 2.4; trilema purports to run on 2.4.16; can the Order/Allow incantations be replaced with the 2.4-style Require?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wp doesn't actually care how .htaccess is implemented ; only that it works.
ben_vulpes: huh danielpbarron mentioned to me that it writes the permalinks into .htaccess, this is not so?
ben_vulpes has yet to put rubber to road on this, still researching
mircea_popescu: not afaik. i linked you to a snippet lessee
mircea_popescu: RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-d << this sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: it redirects missing file references into index.php ; that's how it does the url replace thing.
ben_vulpes: aok so the Order/Allow can probably be swapped for the 'modern' Require styles
ben_vulpes: ty mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes all the Order deny,allow Deny from all Allow from x thing does is lock out by ip ; it's not even generated by wp itself ; it can be implemented any way, iptables, csf, whatever.
ben_vulpes: in other modern scotchguardlifeamericana, these "100% cotton!" napkins are clearly coated with some heinous anti-absorbent "nanotech". yes, works to wipe crumbs off toddlerface but holyfuck is aggressively and annoyingly nonabsorbent.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797053 << should be interesting once spyked wakes up lel.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 15:48 zx2c4: our two x25519 C implementations (32bit and 64bit) are actually generated by theorem proving software, so that we're sure they dont contain any errors
ben_vulpes: i was halfway expecting to see the classic machinegeneratedliquishit objections
ben_vulpes: tenor has certainly changed around here of late.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797078 << this looks almost like a Very Desperate Man (tm) writing say pcb wiring constraints.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's mechanically-unrolled .
asciilifeform: i had example of this back in august, of comba.
asciilifeform: runs ~30% faster simply on account of no loop.
asciilifeform: ( the pipe stays full )
mircea_popescu: the line 332 explosion is a fine example of this as any could be had.
asciilifeform: why the author stopped where he did, and did not unroll ~all~ of the loops, i do not presently know
ckang: 'pull request are always welcome' :) as they say
mircea_popescu: these are yet too high level matters to be practically approached by this "here's an impl" method.
asciilifeform: to be fair, the thing isn't even obscenely lengthy, esp for a robo-generated proggy. ( it remains the case that i dislike c, and also ecc; but these are orthogonal concerns )
mircea_popescu: no, and compiled to 40kb, it's clear from this and plenty other signs the dood has the right ideas in his head.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 15:57 zx2c4: https://א.cc/wrlf5K8I voila
asciilifeform: linked proggy is iirc by another d00d
asciilifeform: but yes
asciilifeform: it resembles 'nano ecc' which at 1 point asciilifeform tried to port to trb
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, what happened ?
asciilifeform: re the aleph ? nfi
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797132 << this counterstructure argument is actually quite strong ; may indeed be stronger than the proponent realizes.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:12 zx2c4: things like RSA boil down to number theory problems. but that's in a sense scarier than the set of problems that good block ciphers tend to boil down to. because it means that those primitives have lots of _structure_, and generally structure is something that can be exploited. just look at all the amazing and fantastic attacks on things with structure. so just boiling down to a [currently considered] "hard problem" doesn't provide as much solace
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797136 << approximately zero, in that case, for good fundamental reasons to do with... the structure of theoretical possibility.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:13 zx2c4: but even hardness of factoring... how hard is this actually? what number theoretic advances are right around the corner?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797142 << understand, the discussion here is re cryptographic hardness, not mathematical hardness ; as discussed otherplaces in the logs, the mathematical notion of difficulty is "what's the absolute hardest case this problem can yield", because they want to offer maximal flop guarantees ; cryptographically it is kinda opposite : what's the LOWEST difficulty a problem in this class may yield
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:15 zx2c4: shape packing?
mircea_popescu: . because they want to put a MINIMUM floor in. so to a large degree mathematical discussions of hardness are not cryptographically useful.
asciilifeform: ftr i got ~nowhere re: a proper approach to cryptohardness.
asciilifeform: and afaik nobody's made any progress re subj since john von n.
asciilifeform: (at least, not publicly.)
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> i have been seduced into liking sugary delights! << It's scarcely been more than a month since a fractional alfajore gave you sugar shock
asciilifeform: ( what would 'getting somewhere' look like ? how about a general theory, or even ~study of particular case, like aes~ re how many bits of key are leaked per, say, TB of ciphertext )
asciilifeform: right now 2 types of cipher are known -- otp, and errythingelse. only re otp is there a mathematical statement of any substance ( i.e. it is degenerate case, leaks 0 bits )
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: that thing was way too way over the top
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: That think was the commercial item that defines the standard
trinque: !!up britknee
deedbot: britknee voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: Now, there's also "alfajores integrals" where a birdseed paste is smashed between two birdseed wafers, but those cost ~70 pesos whereas alfajores verdaderos costs 20-30 pesos
ben_vulpes: im generally suspicious of food from plastic bags
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797536 << we may have had the thread iirc, but : cryptographic 'lowest difficulty' is inescapably statistical, considering that there is a nonzero and calculable probability of guessing a key ( under any system which is not otp, i.e. correct key is somehow distinguishable from the space of possible rubbish key )
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 18:10 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797142 << understand, the discussion here is re cryptographic hardness, not mathematical hardness ; as discussed otherplaces in the logs, the mathematical notion of difficulty is "what's the absolute hardest case this problem can yield", because they want to offer maximal flop guarantees ; cryptographically it is kinda opposite : what's the LOWEST difficulty a problem in this class may yield
asciilifeform: so what you'd want to prove is that there exists ~no~ method more effective than brute guess, for $system.
asciilifeform: ( 1 possible variant formulation of this : you want to prove that it is not possible to quickly skip over any portion of key space )
asciilifeform: !!up avgjoe
deedbot: avgjoe voiced for 30 minutes.
avgjoe: hello, can i ask why deedbot doesn't send me the challange to solve? instead it tells me that i should not up myself
asciilifeform: !!reputation avgjoe
asciilifeform: !!key avgjoe
asciilifeform: !#s from:avgjoe
asciilifeform: seems like nobody rated you yet, avgjoe
asciilifeform: let's fix:
asciilifeform: !!rate avgjoe 1 new blood
asciilifeform: !!v DCD764A8C0F6748C7B7549E53AD453D4E1A51D469C59A0E9E9173300B8A14933
deedbot: asciilifeform rated avgjoe 1 << new blood
asciilifeform: avgjoe: you should be able to self-voice now.
asciilifeform: avgjoe: it means that you had no ratings.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it can't be a debit like that, because the main unknown is the approach.
asciilifeform: ( it is also empty set in lisp )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to elaborate
mircea_popescu: what's it help you to know it's "0.1 bits per tb ~on average~"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: asking not for average, but for bounds
avgjoe: ok thanks, so after someone rates me deedbot allows to up me on demand?
asciilifeform: averages don't help much, if it's '0 on whole week but certain death on tuesday noon'
mircea_popescu: avgjoe yes.
mircea_popescu: !!up TrixxC
deedbot: TrixxC voiced for 30 minutes.
TrixxC: hi am here to register for tits
mircea_popescu: go for it.
mircea_popescu: TrixxC 0b8d3306 <
britknee: hi mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: how goes britknee
britknee: having issue with balance
britknee: trinque said it needs verify
mircea_popescu: lemme check
mircea_popescu: britknee right he is, somehow slipped through the cracks. sorry for the delay ; but it's done now.
britknee: all good ty 👍
ben_vulpes: not so average joe
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797532 << as far as i can tell the 'rsa has structure! but aes, surely not' is instance of minsky's empty room ( http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-13#920444 )
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 18:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797132 << this counterstructure argument is actually quite strong ; may indeed be stronger than the proponent realizes.
a111: Logged on 2014-11-13 23:07 mircea_popescu: In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
mircea_popescu: britknee where's your friends ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes well. one thing at a time huh :D
britknee: you want more pics with #?
mircea_popescu: britknee i'm here all week!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aite, i'ma return to packing launch capsule, bbl
mircea_popescu: well, actually about to go to the beach right now, but in general speaking.
britknee: oh I will put the word out then
britknee: enjoy the beach
mircea_popescu: you seen the pics ?
britknee: link?
BingoBoingo: Ah, the seekrit beach
mircea_popescu: but if you look through that category ("la pas prin lume") there's a ton of various.
britknee: bints lol, rare word
mircea_popescu: are you actually british ?
britknee: no, britney
mircea_popescu: close enough.
mircea_popescu: but are you from uruguay ? because BingoBoingo tells me you look uruguashan.
britknee: hispanic
mircea_popescu: !!up sashahsas
deedbot: sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!up kittycollector
deedbot: kittycollector voiced for 30 minutes.
britknee: columbia and mexico
mircea_popescu: voice for all teh girls!
mircea_popescu: britknee oh, i was in columbia recently.
britknee: I haven't actually been, by blood
TrixxC: i brb there is someone at door
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797184 << you definitely should do that, seeing how the superficial "was reviewed" claim collapses upon the most cursory scrutiny. this is not a good state to put yourself into, it makes it too easy to be painted with unflattering brushes.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:25 zx2c4: i havent compiled a list of Name+WrittenReview. maybe i should do that
mircea_popescu: i dunno what your experience with "peer review" is, but as far as anyone involved is aware, exactly no review goes on in those circumstances. see sokal & all.
mircea_popescu: !#s "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity"
a111: 0 results for "\"Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22Transgressing%20the%20Boundaries%3A%20Towards%20a%20Transformative%20Hermeneutics%20of%20Quantum%20Gravity%22
mircea_popescu: well... now there is.
asciilifeform has been, in person, to one of the shameful, incestuous tree-houses of the 'cryptographers'
asciilifeform was memorably unimpressed.
avgjoe: a curiosity about the deedbot wallet feature: if i use that feature, who is controlling the keys?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, his stance is defensible, "blake was at sha camp, just like keccak, what do you want."
avgjoe: or at least, a server located where?
mircea_popescu: avgjoe you ?
mircea_popescu: or what do you mean exactly ?
mircea_popescu: trinque is your counterparty.
avgjoe: i supposed that was an hot wallet feature
avgjoe: something like that
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: blake2 is bernstein's hash ( consists of a slightly modified chacha, his symmetric algo )
mircea_popescu: i know, i know. just saying, "we picked the non-chosen candidates at random, go sue."
asciilifeform: i've no particular objection to snake oil from king cobra vs from japanese viper; but as i observed earlier, the sudden popularity of bernsteinism has never been explained to my satisfaction.
mircea_popescu: he's popular.
mircea_popescu: goes to their silly little "polyamory" covens on campus and frowns paternally.
mircea_popescu: or w/e the fuck. the youth is desperate for adult figures, much like the savage kids in the us black ghetto.
asciilifeform: wasn't so popular when he was demonstrating effective smooth integers algo
asciilifeform: but then suddenly very very hip when crackpot symmetrics.
mircea_popescu: wasn't meeting the above quals.
asciilifeform: evidently
mircea_popescu: morgan freeman is also worshipped now. why ? same reason. wolf-raised kids can't believe oldman is a thing.
mircea_popescu: nobody cared about him back when he was a good actor 20 years ago as much as they care now, that he delivers wooden monologues of sheer nonsense.
trinque: avgjoe: no, there is no hotwallet
avgjoe: "Requests that `amount` be withdrawn from your available balance and sent to `to-btc-address`. This step shall be performed by a human operator after reviewing account history. Expect at least one day of processing. Bitcoin transaction fees shall be deducted from your account."
trinque: only airgapped wallet, and human meat that cuts transactions
avgjoe: thanks
avgjoe: is a feature for doing off chain transactions by trusting the human meat or i'm missing something?
mircea_popescu: avgjoe it's exactly equivalent to "segwit" except much less expensive.
avgjoe: ok, so as long as i see trinque alive on irc i can feel safe about my test bitcents on it
avgjoe: correct?
mircea_popescu: just about.
trinque: I am the operator yes.
trinque: !!gettrust avgjoe trinque
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
trinque: !!gettrust ben_vulpes trinque
deedbot: L1: 4, L2: 21 by 10 connections.
asciilifeform: trinque: refreshed daily ?
trinque: what is?
asciilifeform: ( i rated him earlier today )
trinque: I measured from him.
trinque: !!gettrust trinque avgjoe
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
asciilifeform: i had nfi this was noncommutative
asciilifeform: but it nao makes sense
avgjoe: why the reverse show 1 connection?
trinque: avgjoe: the point being, while I can give you a lot of nice words about not stealing your bitcents, this doesn't amount to much.
trinque: the web of trust, being in it and forming connections, is the proper way to answer the q
trinque: asciilifeform: sure, maybe some guy trusts me and I think he's crazy
avgjoe: trinque: may I also ask, is just the wallet feature that need human presence or deedbot does other semi-auto functions?
trinque: wot updates and all the rest are immediate
trinque: movement of actual money (btc) is for obvious reasons, not
trinque: anyhow avgjoe, who are you, and how'd you come by us?
avgjoe: so if I understand correct: all the deedbot functions are ready to go for a newcomer, except for the wallet function that works well after having a good wot connection
ben_vulpes: trinque: web site is run on a daily job?
trinque: cron, yep.
trinque: avgjoe: incorrect, wallet works for n00bs immediately
mircea_popescu: o sorry, repost.
trinque: my point was that you can't answer the question of whether to trust me as you sit there now
trinque: well, can, but by doing it and seeing what happens.
trinque: I am at "dog on internet" status for you
mircea_popescu: omg, eaten log. go me!
mircea_popescu: and bbl folks, have a great time.
avgjoe: bye
trinque: adios mircea_popescu
avgjoe: i mean, ok, it works for noobs, but at the same time you don't know instantly who is managing the keys
trinque: sure you do, search logs for "deedbot"
ben_vulpes: trinque: dude has a point, self-referential though it might be faq.html would benefit from an "i am trinque, and have been running this service for members in good standing of the #trilema wot and others before it since XXX"
trinque: depends on whether I think people oughta come in through existing users, or not
trinque: wottronics says I do
ben_vulpes: puts one miles ahead of eg localbitcoins, puts the personal aspect of trust front and center.
avgjoe: that's would be nice, then it's up to the average joe to look up the history and wot
trinque: someone will have to make the argument in favor of average joes
trinque: I will at least say mircea_popescuine features come way first.
trinque: note that a horde of titties just came through and used the thing on the basis of knowing douchebag
ben_vulpes: hey it is your faq, you may answer as f as you like
trinque is fine with putting it, so long as avgjoe here reads that WoT article.
trinque: avgjoe: you didn't introduce yourself though. so go ahead
avgjoe: yes, sorry
asciilifeform: avgjoe: understand, 'looking up' tells you just about nothing if you do not have any existing trust of any of the people who wrote the item you are 'looking up' in.
asciilifeform: avgjoe: there is no magical document that proves trustworthiness. but there is, just like thousand years ago, working with people, and developing relation with them
avgjoe: i'm a student, I've discovered bitcoin thanks to raiblocks
ben_vulpes: avgjoe: this is some altcoin?
avgjoe: basically a coin that was given to lazy people that solved captchas
ben_vulpes: what are you studying?
avgjoe: then this coin has gained popularity for supposed scalability features that i've never investigated
ben_vulpes: well it's more of a nineties yahooforum pink sheet stock but that's neither here nor there
avgjoe: and a couple of months ago i was lucky to cash out in bitcoin the crazy (at least for me) amount generated by solving captchas
ben_vulpes: what are you studying though?
trinque: FAQ updooted
avgjoe: after seeing that raiblocks was just some random coin, i tried to understand better bitcoin and found trilema as a very valid starting point, no-frills like, to use bitcoin in a responsable manner
ben_vulpes: eyy trinque neato
avgjoe: sociology
ben_vulpes: avgjoe: studie in system oppression and advanced microagressions or what?
avgjoe: no, it's a easy/fake study to have more spare time keeping government grants
ben_vulpes: and what do you do with all that spare time
avgjoe: reading trilema
avgjoe: and the logs in these days :D
avgjoe: and hiking
shinohai: !!up TrixxiC
deedbot: TrixxiC voiced for 30 minutes.
lobbes: I was going to hop on to state this very point, but alf beat me to it so I will simply underline and point to trilema article referenced twice above. My own trust for various people (read: cryptographically backed identities) in here was not immediate, but evolved over the 4 years I've spent interfacing with said people. >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797719
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 19:23 asciilifeform: avgjoe: understand, 'looking up' tells you just about nothing if you do not have any existing trust of any of the people who wrote the item you are 'looking up' in.
avgjoe: thanks
spyked: hey trinque, the front page of deedbot.org shows "Bot's address: [...] (balance {u'message': u'Method not found', u'code': -32601})" on 2nd line. looks outta the ordinary.
trinque: blah, k
spyked: yw :)
trinque left an experimental walletless trb running on that box
lobbes: trinque, while yer digging I noticed that wot.deedbot.org appears to have not updated in a bit (e.g. I unrated "blazedout419" a few weeks ago, yet still shows >> http://wot.deedbot.org/3320BCA7825525AD077203C331F36D29A4D93652.html)
trinque: that I knew, but ty
trinque: gotta figure out why the cron job keeps getting stuck.
trinque just ran the same command as from cron, pretty weird
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797506 <-- ain't gonna bitch about that. but just for lulz: http://archive.is/tatUF and to think, proof systems (Coq, Isabelle/HOL, etc.) exist mainly to slap humans on their wrists when they err.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 17:53 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797053 << should be interesting once spyked wakes up lel.
ben_vulpes: gonna spam for a sec, pls hold
trinque: spyked: any chance you want to do mircea_popescu's requested RSS bot? I've got plenty on my plate as it stands.
trinque: could probably pretty easily bolt your cl-feed-parser to ircbot
ben_vulpes: !!v A8527E69320679E6A9735D12955BCA7DCD898A8A3FCBEA7FBC072778536740D4
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated kakobrekla.
ben_vulpes: !!v 40DF9387B2D7D3DFD492542208C673DCF4EB12B8CD544FEA04FC749981D783A3
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of mircea_popescu from 4 to 5 << master of the realm
ben_vulpes: !!v 59EAE7DF138654819F93FE3BDFD9CE3A7FC8C8737D5CF401E220CB446845C062
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of trinque from 4 to 6 << against every creature, living or dead
ben_vulpes: !!v 14F938EC2F445708F8B2704A257EA91F60D111ED5D95ACC60A03616701228562
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of mod6 from 4 to 5 << foundation co-chair
ben_vulpes: !!v D4321170EE27F031AD3EEBD41B8E1E4C532F5637D57A62D835551A93A30A3132
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of lobbes from 3 to 3 << staunch sapper
ben_vulpes: !!v 5976F80A1F2794B3EF34F34B531D95AAC1A1EF99007F67608F86ADC5525DC2A6
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of mike_c from 3 to 1 << lost, but not forgotten
ben_vulpes: !!v 51B9DE7561B66E6C2536CEDABC6355C499625EE1012B99831FF71C09FECB429E
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of hanbot from 2 to 4 << legendary valkyrie
ben_vulpes: !!v EC5C8E14678916A59CF2A0AF481BD9AEA6271F301CA009DE720904DC71808096
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated mthreat.
ben_vulpes: !!v 182509D378DBE6EA3EE17CF0C0E38AAAE2D682170F86A684F3318DBC7FE70CCB
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated rye.
ben_vulpes: !!v 16810532F1E34865D544F57908471397D1314800FCC04AE800275D38D86C1604
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated ang-st.
ben_vulpes: !!v E7073EFBA9BF9CDB7A6054E7406C45FD38E8F13504CD05F1BE0B13CA126D3DAD
deedbot: ben_vulpes updated rating of danielpbarron from 1 to 3 << his worship
ben_vulpes: !!v F934F5806DE35FBFB10DFD5C64BAB2CFF17A5DD75EB6DC123F65BB80D5DA16B6
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated princessnell.
ben_vulpes: !!v BCBF03DA53D0411F7C81BC7367C96AF0488FFAC5FB83261C5A550C1A258C6AED
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated smickles.
ben_vulpes: !!v D99F7B29DD8BC742D50988B5155A3D265BBF5AED29CC8089ED2940DE526BD257
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated solrodar.
ben_vulpes: !!v 1BFCF592050AC7F1172BAC82BF491D0462E8E274488A67430FDB9FE12C38BB9D
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated vvande.
ben_vulpes: !!v 761EDFB41C3704005996B2D3A97F68375DDC6F440301B64E9F10DC5C3F82175D
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated xmj.
ben_vulpes: !!v 23F54062DF2992D7F763DA177DA54B1C8E535E6D170F8E55EC2E8FE4AC22E01D
deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated agustin.
ben_vulpes: beg pardon, that's done
ben_vulpes to ice hands
spyked: trinque, yeah, I'm actually playing with cl-feed-parser to get an idea of what's required for the feed bot, going to spec it and all. I grabbed it off the githubs ( https://github.com/tkych/cl-feed-parser ) and the number of dependencies is irksome, so if you happen to know a better alternative other than building my own, I'm open to suggestions
trinque: nope, current thing is a sad pythonball hanging off the side.
spyked: okay then, I'm gonna work it off this. it'd be enough to replace the "drakma" http client with something lighter, and I'd already cut about half of it. the dependency tree leads to two xml parser libraries being used (plus other redundant stuff).
spyked: whole thing's a mess, but I'm organizing the code so that I can eventually replace it with something else.
trinque: a muntzed drakma would be a fine thing, I'd sign
spyked: anyway, back to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797753 : also, I ran a http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/hYZVy/?raw=true out of curiosity. results: cca 150k LoC of proof (of which ~10k just the basic definitions) that generate another cca 100k LoC of C code. but to be fair, this is for more than just 25519
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 19:58 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797506 <-- ain't gonna bitch about that. but just for lulz: http://archive.is/tatUF and to think, proof systems (Coq, Isabelle/HOL, etc.) exist mainly to slap humans on their wrists when they err.
spyked: zx2c4, I've been looking over the tamarin protocol verification paper and I'm curious, what does "symbolic verification" mean? also, what's the thing's output? is it just a "yes, properties hold" or does it also output the proof?
spyked: more to the point, this is similar to asciilifeform's "auditability" question. is there a way to obtain a (ideally human-readable) set of deductions out of the prover?
asciilifeform: spyked: if you recall, back in the 'minsky age', that was the initial attraction of mechanical 'reasoners' -- discovery of ~simple~ inferences
asciilifeform: unfortunately it never went far beyond 'rediscovered pythagor's theorem'
asciilifeform: but this was enuff for the tech to find its way to the cargocultists.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797798 << 1 of the things on asciilifeform's 'wish list', is a reasonable ada http serv
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:10 trinque: a muntzed drakma would be a fine thing, I'd sign
asciilifeform: ( somewhere along the lines of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1780200 thread )
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 22:32 asciilifeform: idea is a http server in <1000 ln of ada, approx.
asciilifeform: 'reasonable' meaning, on top of mere compactness, other fine things like heaplessness
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797799 << if this looks monstrous, prepare to barf when you consider how much the ~verifier~ weighs
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:16 spyked: anyway, back to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797753 : also, I ran a http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/hYZVy/?raw=true out of curiosity. results: cca 150k LoC of proof (of which ~10k just the basic definitions) that generate another cca 100k LoC of C code. but to be fair, this is for more than just 25519
asciilifeform: ( and i dun think i need to explain that the mecha-proof is ~meaningless~ without reading the claimed verifier )
asciilifeform: spyked: in re proof machines, i'm much moar interested in items like ACL2 , where you can affix your hand-written program to a hand-written proof of correctness in a mechanically-reliable way
asciilifeform: ada's spark is a similar, if somewhat uglier/bulkier, thing
asciilifeform: in any case fits-in-head MUST come ahead of 'proofiness'.
asciilifeform: !#s acl2
asciilifeform: ^ possibly thread.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1796970 << here's a thing i wondered about for many yrs : is there any reason why a wirbelrohr could not do the job of 'frost control' in an 'airbreather rocket' ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 07:30 ben_vulpes: 2015, btw, aviationweek http://aviationweek.com/space/reaction-engines-reveals-secret-sabre-frost-control-technology
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: gives you clean, h2o-free o2, if the spigot is placed correctly in the vortex, as i understand
asciilifeform: also gives you cooling, reasonably cheaply
ben_vulpes: my first q is what is the breadth of intake gas velocities and fluxes that such a device could handle
asciilifeform: as i understand, would be constrained by possible length of the tube and the strength of the material from which it is made
asciilifeform: ( as well as the fact that it has to work 'from parking lot to mach X' )
ben_vulpes: interesting
ben_vulpes: won't work past mach
ben_vulpes: refrigeration depends on compressibility of the working fluid
asciilifeform: must point out, i haven't the faintest reason to think that it would work; was specifically curious re whynot
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc wirbelrohr works just the same on liquids
asciilifeform: for so long as you can make a pressure gradient at all.
asciilifeform: ( if you cannot, you have a solid, and naturally no it won't work on a solid, lol )
ben_vulpes: just cribbing from wikipedia here, but "there is no longer cooling observed since cooling requires compressibility of the working fluid"
asciilifeform: ( though i suspect something like it would even work in a 'springy' solid. see 'phonons' etc )
ben_vulpes: it'll cool, sure, but nowhere near as much as if it were a gas, as the gas will condense and pull further heat out of the local system.
ben_vulpes: not condense, but compress.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: colour me thick, but how does the compression of oncoming gas ~pull out~ heat ? consider how 'reentry heat' comes about.
asciilifeform: meteorite does not burn from friction of atmosphere, but specifically from compressing oncoming air
asciilifeform: think 'diesel'
ben_vulpes: nono color me thick
ben_vulpes: there is an expander in the diagram, had a sign error
ben_vulpes: "The Use of the Expansion of Gases in a Centrifugal Field as Cooling Process"
asciilifeform: btw ben_vulpes probably has held in his hands, the tube : they are often found in machine shops
asciilifeform: spot-cooling for milling process
asciilifeform: intake of 'whistle' goes to the house air hose
ben_vulpes: might work if you had enough expander and volume to slow the intake down and get it out of the incompressible regime
asciilifeform: cold-end -- points down at $workpiece
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yeah here and there, more frequently we simply flooded the workpiece with coolant.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you'd want prolly something like the 'mouth' of mig-15
ben_vulpes: could make a good intercooler for garage flugenthingers
ben_vulpes: or hm
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: don't fixate on the cooling ; i proposed it as simple means of producing 'dry' air
asciilifeform: cooling -- bonus.
ben_vulpes: heh well then you gotta cool the dryer, dontcha
asciilifeform: consider what happens in the vortex. center tap gives you 'cold end', which contains the heavier objects, incl. water
asciilifeform: outer tap -- 'hot' -- is dry air
asciilifeform: colour me again thick, why does the dry air require cooling ? esp if your intended use for it is rocket oxidizer
asciilifeform: why not pipe it straight to the chamber.
ben_vulpes: you'll want to compress it somewhat for reasons of efficiency; consider again the diesel and its turbo
asciilifeform: the motion of the rocket ( align the tube with the motion axis, naturally ) does this for you, neh
ben_vulpes: not on the tarmac
ben_vulpes: this is the ramjet
asciilifeform does not harbour any illusions that this is 'easy pill' -- think, e.g. korolev would have had this pill, if it were so easy. but curious re the prohibitive boojum specifically.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: roughly
jurov: i think the vortex sorts particles by momentum, not necessarily by temperature
ben_vulpes: hellish inferno of combustion chamber is at very high pressures in engineered rocket engine.
asciilifeform: jurov: naturally not 'by temperature' purely, or you would have 'maxwell's daemon' lol
jurov: but i don't know if same temperature means h2o and o2 molecules have same momentum? or they have same kkinetic energy?
ben_vulpes: jurov: it's alll the same thiiiiing
ben_vulpes: you get some gases that speed up, pulling energy out of the gases that slow down which dump energy into the higher speed gases. not purely a 'sorter'.
jurov: you want it to separate water, no?
ben_vulpes: i think it puts the water in the wrong place. you get dry, hot air which you'd then have to cool and compress into the engine and cold wet air (possibly with the water condensed out entirely with a spigot)
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is of course another way to get dry air
asciilifeform: above certain temp, water cannot exist, only h2, o2
ben_vulpes: heh ah ha
asciilifeform: whether it is possible to create this condition mechanically, purely from result of vehicle's motion -- i do not know
ben_vulpes: "i know, let's premix our fuel and oxidizer!"
asciilifeform: probably a simple calculation would tell us 'nope'. and if al schwartz were here, he might deign to post it
ben_vulpes: this gets tried once a generation
asciilifeform: but he aint here.
asciilifeform: and nope, not premix, lol
asciilifeform: 'bang gas' or what's it in engl.
ben_vulpes: hypergolic?
ben_vulpes: anyways i have a girthy sql to wrestle and http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-3-23#317862
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-03-23 04:08 douchebag: Okay, why do you guys liek arguing so much? Is this why you guys don't get anything done?
asciilifeform: neh that's not 'premixed in the tank' lol
asciilifeform: that's mixed in nozzle.
asciilifeform: but aite.
ben_vulpes: bang gas is then a pressure-drop triggered combustion?
ben_vulpes: yeah i can't this thread anymore, too damn seductive.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797811 <-- been there. and the kernel is not monstrous (paper: http://www.cs.ru.nl/~freek/courses/tt-2012/papers/sadhana.pdf -- funfact: a bastard version of mccarthy's "maxwell equations" lies buried somewhere in there), but attempting to use it to solve even simple problems from 7th grade mathbook can lead to huge codebase. and will inevitably bring the computer-aided mathematician to an existential
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:52 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797799 << if this looks monstrous, prepare to barf when you consider how much the ~verifier~ weighs
spyked: crisis.
asciilifeform: spyked: sorta how it is ~impossible to write a prolog proggy without several times ending up asking machine np-hard question.
asciilifeform: spyked: i dun have anything against mechanical proof per se; but it is NOT a substitute for fits-in-head, because there is nor cannot be any such substitute. and the mass of the theorem-verifier is to be included with the mass of the program, for the purpose of 'is this head-fittable'. but possibly i repeat old thread.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797815 <-- must confess that I am eager to read FFA spark.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:55 asciilifeform: ada's spark is a similar, if somewhat uglier/bulkier, thing
asciilifeform: spyked: it'll happen. tho i am aiming for folx to end up answering 'this did not need sparkism, it is evidently correct to naked eyes'
asciilifeform: !!up saturn_
deedbot: saturn_ voiced for 30 minutes.
saturn_: heyyy
saturn_: i did not get my bitcoins yet xc
asciilifeform: ^ trinque ?
asciilifeform: saturn_: iirc he processes withdrawals nightly
saturn_: okidokie cx
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 07:03 trinque will get to these tomorrow, girls
saturn_: ty!!!!
douchebag: alright bois
douchebag: crackin a cold 1
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797528 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797506 -- in case you're interested in the ecc stuff more, the formally verified fiat and hacl implementations are not the only ones we have. we also have constant time accelerated x86 adx and bmi2 implementations https://git.zx2c4.com/WireGuard/tree/src/crypto/curve25519-x86_64.h and also constant time accelerated arm neon implementations
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 18:00 asciilifeform: it resembles 'nano ecc' which at 1 point asciilifeform tried to port to trb
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 17:53 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797053 << should be interesting once spyked wakes up lel.
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797532 why stronger than i realize?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 18:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797132 << this counterstructure argument is actually quite strong ; may indeed be stronger than the proponent realizes.
zx2c4: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797596 obviously aes has quite a bit of structure too, but there's a difference
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 18:35 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797532 << as far as i can tell the 'rsa has structure! but aes, surely not' is instance of minsky's empty room ( http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-13#920444 )
zx2c4: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797645 it's based on chacha but was actually developed by aumasson and co
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 18:48 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: blake2 is bernstein's hash ( consists of a slightly modified chacha, his symmetric algo )
zx2c4: spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797801 tamarin (and cryptoverif and proverif) spit out the proof too. tamarin has a nice mode that will draw diagrams and flow charts too to make it easier to digest the proofs. people even have scripts to convert the output into latex in case you want an academic paper for free...
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:20 spyked: zx2c4, I've been looking over the tamarin protocol verification paper and I'm curious, what does "symbolic verification" mean? also, what's the thing's output? is it just a "yes, properties hold" or does it also output the proof?
lobbes: been thinking through tickerbot design, and seems like the sane thing would be to have Process A (which is an instance of logbot-genesis with "logbot-multiple-channels-corrected" patch) running that makes changes to a postgresql database.
lobbes: Then I have Process B that is triggered on changes to that database doing the various "market price" retrieval and volume averaging. Process B inserts retrieved data into database and Process A responds accordingly
lobbes: technical design aside though, there's still that obvious fact that we have to rely on various $mtgoxes for market price :/ Though I'm not sure what be a better source for a fiat-btc exchange rate (iirc this was a mini-thread somewhere in logs)
trinque: kittycollector and sashahsas, you used the same address. someone is lazy.
mircea_popescu: !!up TrixxC
deedbot: TrixxC voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4 specifically for the "empty room" problem he brought up. do you follow the logic there ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797734 << hey. he has a point there, if you're gonna bilk it gotta bilk it.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 19:42 avgjoe: no, it's a easy/fake study to have more spare time keeping government grants
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:01 deedbot: ben_vulpes unrated princessnell.
mircea_popescu: btw, does it occur to anyone else that #trilema is way ahead of i dunno, black-chicks-code or whatever other imperial nonsense in terms of both headcount, volume or value of female participation in techgeneering ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:48 asciilifeform: spyked: if you recall, back in the 'minsky age', that was the initial attraction of mechanical 'reasoners' -- discovery of ~simple~ inferences
a111: Logged on 2014-02-26 14:52 mircea_popescu: they let it run overnight, among the conclusions it had arrived to by morning was "napoleon had an infinite number of arms"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797814 << this'd be the one extra item vtronics might eventually get, if this ever comes to exist in a proper sense.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 20:55 asciilifeform: spyked: in re proof machines, i'm much moar interested in items like ACL2 , where you can affix your hand-written program to a hand-written proof of correctness in a mechanically-reliable way
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797868 << quite ; but this is not unrelated, mommentum = mv. and v has a T component.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 21:29 jurov: i think the vortex sorts particles by momentum, not necessarily by temperature
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797879 << well, it does suggest the solution to the cold fusion problem : MAKE THE ITEM MOVE WITH ROCKET!!1
a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 21:38 asciilifeform: whether it is possible to create this condition mechanically, purely from result of vehicle's motion -- i do not know
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-13#1797925 << defo publish all this, then. or is it published already ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-13 00:42 zx2c4: spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-12#1797801 tamarin (and cryptoverif and proverif) spit out the proof too. tamarin has a nice mode that will draw diagrams and flow charts too to make it easier to digest the proofs. people even have scripts to convert the output into latex in case you want an academic paper for free...
mircea_popescu: !!up fmlrenln
deedbot: fmlrenln voiced for 30 minutes.
douchebag: !!up tittybang
deedbot: tittybang voiced for 30 minutes.
tittybang: titties ?
mircea_popescu: lol aite.
deedbot: 557D9486765678B52BA698560040F7B6EE331885 registered as tittybang.
mircea_popescu: 51fd3dda
mircea_popescu: !!up vdstzt
deedbot: vdstzt voiced for 30 minutes.
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